Bass on keys

[Old Dirt]

We've had a (lot of) problems keeping a bass player in our group.

Consequently, I've spent a lot of time playing both keys and bass. I have a Yamaha S90ES. I've been splitting the keyboard into a key/synth voice on top and a bass on the lower 40% of the keys. However, this requires that I preset all the possible keys voice requirements along with appropriate bass voicings. It prevents me from throwing in a new voice on the run.

Long story short, any recommendations on how to solve this? I've thought about (a) buying a used Rhodes bass keyboard and becoming the next Ray Manzarek (I wish), (b) getting something like a Novation midi and tuning it down to just the bass sounds, © getting a cheap second keyboard to use for just the bass parts.

I don't need much bass-wise, with the kind of music we do. Just a good 1-2 standup bass voices, and 1-2 electric bass voices.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

I'm generally a techno-noob, so simplicity would be helpful.

Thanks!

[dan88z]

Get a small 2nd keyboard, not an old Rhodes key bass. Some kind of rompler like a MOX6, then you'd have a variety of bass sounds and the ability to tweak them to your taste. There are a lot of lower priced boards out there that could cover bass but with the MOX6 you'd be familiar with the operating system since it's another Yamaha.

[plaid_emu]

Just sequence all your bass parts into an old TB-303 . After all, that's what they were originally designed for.

[AnotherScott]

Originally Posted by Old Dirt

However, this requires that I preset all the possible keys voice requirements along with appropriate bass voicings. It prevents me from throwing in a new voice on the run.

The solution on the MOX -- which may be similar to something you can do on the S90ES -- is to set up a user bank that has one-button access to your 16 favorite right-hand sounds. Create a patch that has your bass sound where you want it on the left, but while playing, leave it in the EDIT mode, the one where you can use the 16 buttons (along with other ways) to select the sound that you're assigning somewhere. Then you can keep playing the LH, but instantly switch your RH on the fly to any of those 16 sounds.

A second keyboard, of course, frees up the entire S90ES range, so you no longer would have to worry about "running out of keys" if you wanted to play a sound over more notes than what you have left after creating the bass split. The second keyboard could have its own sounds in it, but it doesn't have to, since you can also use MIDI to trigger an S90ES bass sound from a second controller while leaving its own 88 keys fully available to whatever sound(s) you assign to it.

For bass alone, I find a 37-note board is fine. Though depending on your keyboard stand, you may want something with more keys, because you may find that some boards are too narrow to work on the top tier of a stand that is set wide enough to support an 88.

Also, you may find other benefits to the second board... like being able to play organ sounds from an unweighted action instead of the weighted action of the S90ES.

[Old Dirt]

Thanks guys. I'll check out the MOX and the TB-303. Knew I could count on you.

[plaid_emu]

Before you start researching, I was actually joking about the 303. It's quite terrible at making a convincing natural bassline. That IS what it was designed for but people found it much better at creating synthetic squelchy bass noises for the techno genre. I was making a sort of inside joke for synth nerds. Sorry if I caused confusion.

[keybdwizrd]

Also, as you'll see on this thread, Yamaha is coming out with new basic keyboards with 1,000 ES sounds in 49- and 61-key versions. Or a used MO6 or MM6 would also serve the purpose.

As someone who has played a ton of keyboard bass, having the bass keyboard raised on another tier can be tiring on the left arm. You may want to try having both keyboards at the same height, but in some kind of angled "L" formation - whatever is comfortable if you standing or sitting. Or having the second keyboard just above the other and skewed to the left.... whatever works.

[Old Dirt]

 

Originally Posted by plaid_emu

Before you start researching, I was actually joking about the 303. It's quite terrible at making a convincing natural bassline. That IS what it was designed for but people found it much better at creating synthetic squelchy bass noises for the techno genre. I was making a sort of inside joke for synth nerds. Sorry if I caused confusion.

 

You rascal. I did look at the 303. Five minutes of my life I'll never get back.

[Old Dirt]

Originally Posted by keybdwizrd

Also, as you'll see on this thread, Yamaha is coming out with new basic keyboards with 1,000 ES sounds in 49- and 61-key versions. Or a used MO6 or MM6 would also serve the purpose.

As someone who has played a ton of keyboard bass, having the bass keyboard raised on another tier can be tiring on the left arm. You may want to try having both keyboards at the same height, but in some kind of angled "L" formation - whatever is comfortable if you standing or sitting. Or having the second keyboard just above the other and skewed to the left.... whatever works.

Thanks, I'll check those out. Good point about the raised bass, too.

[AnotherScott]

As a standing player, I've had no problem playing bass on a 2nd tier board. I won't do it on a 3rd tier again, though!

[j_e_f_f_g]

Apparently, your current keyboard is fine in terms of key range and action. What you don't like is the fact that you don't want to deal with patch change affecting the left split. But I don't see why you need a second keyboard. A more portable option is just to get a rackmount module connected to the S90 MIDI out. Get a module that allows you to set it to ignore Program Change messages. Most of the newer ones do. (Or alternately maybe you can set the S90 to not transmit program changes). Turn off the left split internal patch on the S90 (or 0 its volume) so that the S90 left split doesn't play any internal sound -- it only MIDI controls the module. You may also need to set the right and left splits to different MIDI channels, or set the right split to not transmit MIDI at all, so that the module doesn't also play your right hand part. Or maybe set the module's bass patch to play only a certain note range -- most do that as well.

The s90's Master mode will let you set a left/right split with the right playing an internal part only (TGswitch is on for the zone, and MIDIswitch is off) and the left playing only a MIDI module (TGswitch is off for the zone, and MIDIswitch is on). Furthermore, by turning off Bank MIDI and PC MIDI (page 174 in your manual) for the left zone, your S90 won't change the module's patch. So you can get any small box that has a bass sound you like, attach to the S90 MIDI Out, and you're good to go.

P.S. I'd also turn off all the other settings (page 174) for the left split.

=======================================

Hold on! There are also Bank TG and PC TG settings. These control changing the internal patch. What happens if you turn them off for the left zone (in several Master mode setups), and then switch among those setups? This may achieve exactly what you want.

[AnotherScott]

I don't think an external module solves any issue here, I think the keyboard's ability to manage either side of a split independently is equal regardless of whether the sounds are internal or external. But building off that idea, assuming the S90ES can operate as a multi-zone controller and as a multi-timbral sound source, yet another approach could be to turn Local Off, connect MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, and create a patch where the lower part of the keyboard transmits on Channel 1 and the upper on Channel 2... set Channel 1 for your bass sound, and use the front panel to select your Channel 2 sounds on the fly as you play. Though really, I think that can likely be done just as well without the LOCAL OFF and MIDI cable parts, because you should be able to do the same kind of assignments completely internally. As I said it my first message posted above, I've basically done that on my MOX, and I think the same idea would probably work on an S90ES (and there may be more than one way to do it).

[Old Dirt]

Originally Posted by AnotherScott

I don't think an external module solves any issue here, I think the keyboard's ability to manage either side of a split independently is equal regardless of whether the sounds are internal or external. But building off that idea, assuming the S90ES can operate as a multi-zone controller and as a multi-timbral sound source, yet another approach could be to turn Local Off, connect MIDI OUT to MIDI IN, and create a patch where the lower part of the keyboard transmits on Channel 1 and the upper on Channel 2... set Channel 1 for your bass sound, and use the front panel to select your Channel 2 sounds on the fly as you play. Though really, I think that can likely be done just as well without the LOCAL OFF and MIDI cable parts, because you should be able to do the same kind of assignments completely internally. As I said it my first message posted above, I've basically done that on my MOX, and I think the same idea would probably work on an S90ES (and there may be more than one way to do it).

Originally Posted by j_e_f_f_g

Apparently, your current keyboard is fine in terms of key range and action. What you don't like is the fact that you don't want to deal with patch change affecting the left split. But I don't see why you need a second keyboard. A more portable option is just to get a rackmount module connected to the S90 MIDI out. Get a module that allows you to set it to ignore Program Change messages. Most of the newer ones do. (Or alternately maybe you can set the S90 to not transmit program changes). Turn off the left split internal patch on the S90 (or 0 its volume) so that the S90 left split doesn't play any internal sound -- it only MIDI controls the module. You may also need to set the right and left splits to different MIDI channels, or set the right split to not transmit MIDI at all, so that the module doesn't also play your right hand part. Or maybe set the module's bass patch to play only a certain note range -- most do that as well.

The s90's Master mode will let you set a left/right split with the right playing an internal part only (TGswitch is on for the zone, and MIDIswitch is off) and the left playing only a MIDI module (TGswitch is off for the zone, and MIDIswitch is on). Furthermore, by turning off Bank MIDI and PC MIDI (page 174 in your manual) for the left zone, your S90 won't change the module's patch. So you can get any small box that has a bass sound you like, attach to the S90 MIDI Out, and you're good to go.

P.S. I'd also turn off all the other settings (page 174) for the left split.

=======================================

Hold on! There are also Bank TG and PC TG settings. These control changing the internal patch. What happens if you turn them off for the left zone (in several Master mode setups), and then switch among those setups? This may achieve exactly what you want.

Thanks guys. I'm going to have to sit down at my S90 and see what I can do with both these suggestions. As I mentioned, I'm pretty much a tech-noob here so it'll take me awhile. I hope there's not a test!!

I know, I'll get my son to help!

But seriously, thanks for taking the time to provide all this feedback!

[TIMKEYS]

Originally Posted by Old Dirt

We've had a (lot of) problems keeping a bass player in our group.

Consequently, I've spent a lot of time playing both keys and bass. I have a Yamaha S90ES. I've been splitting the keyboard into a key/synth voice on top and a bass on the lower 40% of the keys. However, this requires that I preset all the possible keys voice requirements along with appropriate bass voicings. It prevents me from throwing in a new voice on the run.

Long story short, any recommendations on how to solve this? I've thought about (a) buying a used Rhodes bass keyboard and becoming the next Ray Manzarek (I wish), (b) getting something like a Novation midi and tuning it down to just the bass sounds, © getting a cheap second keyboard to use for just the bass parts.

I don't need much bass-wise, with the kind of music we do. Just a good 1-2 standup bass voices, and 1-2 electric bass voices.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

I'm generally a techno-noob, so simplicity would be helpful.

Thanks!

the second small board is how a buddy of mine does it. That said, I think i would also take a look at why you cant keep a bass player. It could be as simple as busy left hand syndrome on the part of your keyboard player. Bass players hate that {censored}.

[wesg]

 

 

 

 

 

It could be as simple as busy left hand syndrome on the part of your keyboard player. Bass players hate that {censored}.

 

 

 

 

Word. A lot of my comping uses only one finger on the left hand, and it's usually within a 4th of middle C. And a lot of it uses no left hand at all.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Originally Posted by wesg

Word. A lot of my comping uses only one finger on the left hand, and it's usually within a 4th of middle C. And a lot of it uses no left hand at all.

 

mine too. We have run an open jam for the last 4 years. Its always interesting when we have a sit in keyboard player and i get bumped and get to listen to our band as just a person in the crowd. The thing that I notice is that how many really great keyboard players tend to cut the band to death with a busy left hand or create mush by over playing. most tend to come from a solo piano act background and are not band guys. Its a different ball game when you play with a band that has a bass player , a rhythm player and a lead player.

[Plink Floyd]

I played bass/second keyboards in a band for a year or so in the 80s. But it was all synth bass except for one song (U2's Two Hearts, which just needs a real bass). On almost every song I used a CV keyar to control an Odyssey. I only needed one other board, which was either a Poly-61 or a Juno-60.

I hated it. Not so much the bass playing, but the others in the band. Especially the other keyboard player. He was a Five Star Ass, with his Korg CX-3, MemoryMoog, two MiniMoogs, a CP70 and a Korg VC-10.

His chops were better than mine, too.

But I still think keytar for key bass is the most comfortable and natural feeling. And sometimes you just have to jump up on the riser to kick the drummer back into the pocket.

[Old Dirt]

Originally Posted by TIMKEYS

mine too. We have run an open jam for the last 4 years. Its always interesting when we have a sit in keyboard player and i get bumped and get to listen to our band as just a person in the crowd. The thing that I notice is that how many really great keyboard players tend to cut the band to death with a busy left hand or create mush by over playing. most tend to come from a solo piano act background and are not band guys. Its a different ball game when you play with a band that has a bass player , a rhythm player and a lead player.

Originally Posted by wesg

Word. A lot of my comping uses only one finger on the left hand, and it's usually within a 4th of middle C. And a lot of it uses no left hand at all.

Well, I'd like to say it was the keyboard player, but he ain't that talented.

I try to keep my left hand as minimal as possible when there's a bass player playing, especially since some of the other players have a tendency to overcomplicate the rhythm.

[mikelpanky]

Just get something cheap and run it through a bass amp. I once had to play keyboard bass because my buddy lost his bassist last-second, so I ran an old SY-22 through a crap bass amp and it ended up being remarkably believable.

[rovito]

Look into a Korg MicroX. Good bass sounds and easy to move..

[JeffLearman]

 

I try to keep my left hand as minimal as possible when there's a bass player playing, especially since some of the other players have a tendency to overcomplicate the rhythm.

 

Good for you. Me too. I also EQ out a lot of the lows. However, I also really enjoy doubling the bass part on piano. I'm in a soul band, where that works for a lot of the tunes. But, only with cooperation from the bass player. Any tune where he doesn't stick to a very steady part, I don't do it, or where he doesn't want it (but he usually does). There are a few tunes where he wants it but tends to stray at different points, so I play a reduced part that reinforces him in the fundamentals but leaves space where he needs it. It's a lot of fun, frankly.

 

I'd hate to be the bass for the band, though, on keys. Bass and drums are the most important instruments for most popular music, and have to be totally down and in the pocket, or there's no point in even showing up. Maybe when I grow up I'll be solid enough to do that and even have a few brain cells left over for my right hand. The parts I double on piano are all very simple ones, and a long way from all the things a bass player needs to cover in a whole lineup.

 

Playing bass on a few tunes so the bass player could do something else, yeah, I'd do that. But not cover the whole gig!

[ChristianRock]

I'd look at a Korg Microstation and put it on an L position, or right above the S90 - which would be traded in for the smaller but same keybed S70XS since you won't need that extra low octave most of the time...

 

 

The Microstation is only 399 dollars new right now and has minikeys but its keys are actually very playable. And it's very small and light, so easy to carry around. Not to mention it's a sequencer and has an arpeggiator, so you could sequence or arpeggiate your bass parts Also, USB connectivity so you can carry your computer around for writing and you don't need an extra interface.

 

Here's a demo of the bass sounds.

 

[video=youtube;Au-C58lcl-k]