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vintage 70's analog korg cx-3 organ vs. newer ones.


Stella Joop

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hi. im seeing some good deals on vintage ones. i dont care about the lack of presets or whatever so much. but, soundwise, reliabilty, operational ease or whatever...what are your thoughts on the vintage ones? i may pull teh trigger on one soon. what shortcomings should i be aware of?

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I have the newer one and I'm debating selling it. I've posted on Korgforums but Korg never addressed my issue with it. The new one has a bunch of features that the old one doesn't have (MIDI, leslie, presets, etc) but there's one important thing that the new one has the old one doesn't:

 

ALIASING

 

I can't hold a simple chord in the upper registers without a ton of annoying aliasing. I used it live twice and both sound guys requested me to stop using it and just play the organ parts on my Triton or M50.

 

Been a LONG time since I played the original CX-3 but I'm debating dumping my new CX-3 at a hefty loss and picking up the old one myself.

 

-Mc

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Aliasing is when you actually hear the samples looping. When you play in the upper registers is when it's really bad. The loop points of multiple notes are out of sync and you get this really weird harmonic/overtone/noise/whatever that is so distracting you can't NOT notice it. For example, when I play that slow chord pattern in Foreplay, the aliasing sounds so bad, it's louder than the actual notes I'm playing. I won't take it to gigs anymore.

 

Supposedly, the new CX-3 is a modeling organ but I can't believe it. The samples used on the Triton (released the same time) don't have aliasing nearly as bad. I'm confused it's so bad to be honest.

 

I see the old ones go in the neighborhood of $400 or so. You really can't go wrong with 'em.

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The new version of the CX3 circa 2001-present completely schools the vintage one circa ~1980-1985 in many ways:

 

- Sounds great out of the box, does not require external Leslie or other simulation like the old one

- True waterfall action keyboard vs. rickety diving board keys

- UI is authentic to the Hammond tonewheel experience

- Two sets of drawbars

- MIDI

- Lots of other bells and whistles

- Old one has proprietary chips that fail over time and are near impossible to replace

 

The old one is a little bit fun when grinding through a real Leslie, but the new one is a much finer instrument.

 

Regards,

Eric

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im ultimately looking at either a vintage cx3 or a hammond xk2.


are there any big pros and cons with those two? could anyone do a comparison for me? any info is appreciated

 

 

Why narrow your sights on just these two when there are many more that do the job better for not too much more $$? You will definitely need to factor in external Leslie solutions for either of these, whether you go Motion Sound, real Leslie, or some kind of sim like the CLS-222, Ventilator, Rotosphere, etc. So count on that expense unless you already have this covered.

 

Of these two, the XK2 is definitely the winner. True waterfall keys, better tone, typical modern amenities like MIDI, etc.

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I have the newer one and I'm debating selling it. I've posted on Korgforums but Korg never addressed my issue with it. The new one has a bunch of features that the old one doesn't have (MIDI, leslie, presets, etc) but there's one important thing that the new one has the old one doesn't:


ALIASING


I can't hold a simple chord in the upper registers without a ton of annoying aliasing. I used it live twice and both sound guys requested me to stop using it and just play the organ parts on my Triton or M50.


Been a LONG time since I played the original CX-3 but I'm debating dumping my new CX-3 at a hefty loss and picking up the old one myself.


-Mc

 

 

Still having those issues? Did you buy it second hand or new? Because if you bought it new you could probably return it and get a new one, right?

 

Btw. Have you played any other CX3 to see if it has the same problems?

 

Lot's of questions here..

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The issue is aliasing, not loop points (I do understand the difference but still can't find a real easy way to explain aliasing without sound examples to someone who doesn't know what aliasing is). But yah, it's aliasing. In the upper registers, it's so loud it sounds like loop points.

 

I bought it new and have confirmed it on every *NEW* CX-3 I've played since.

 

I posted an example here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NTB2DDVR

 

If you listen to it through PC speakers, you won't hear it. If you listen to it with headphones or through a quality, full range PA you can't miss it.

 

I run from C to C on a VERY clean patch with: Amp simulation - off. Amp type set to Preamp. Noise - off. Overtones - off. Chorus/vibrato - off. Treble and bass set to 0. Leakage - off. Wheel type - clean.

 

I've played church organs, real B3's, M100, Hammond XK1 and XK3, as well as a bunch of other crappy organs (including romplers) and none of them are this bad (at least that I've found so far).

 

I'm kinda pissed at Korg because all over their ads for this thing they said it was modeled, not sampled. I claim B.S. unless they define "modeled" as meant to emulate.

 

-Mc

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Still having those issues? Did you buy it second hand or new? Because if you bought it new you could probably return it and get a new one, right?


Btw. Have you played any other CX3 to see if it has the same problems?


Lot's of questions here..

 

I listened to the wave file that McHale posted and I don't hear what he's referring to...it sounds like a Hammond to me. My initial impression is that there's a lot of reverb, too much treble and you have the Leslie simulator bypassed. In general, however, it sounds like a tonewheel organ. Mc, did you try knocking off some of the high end with the onboard EQ? Foreplay should begin with 888800000.

 

I've had a CX3 (modern version) for 5 years and have never had a problem with it (recording or live). I've even covered Foreplay/Longtime with it through more PAs than I can remember. ;)

 

I'm sure Korg has sold plenty of these keyboards. If there was a real issue with it, somebody would be talking about it somewhere on the internet but I haven't heard anything.

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I've had a CX3 (modern version) for 5 years and have never had a problem with it (recording or live). I've even covered Foreplay/Longtime with it through more PAs than I can remember.
;)

 

I tried to remove ANY thing that would add any color to the sound. I was told it was the amp simulation or the Leslie or... So I removed it all and ran it flat.

 

Try this (with headphones):

 

Take one of the mellow organ patches. Hold the very high C (don't let go through the test). Now slowly move from C to C.

 

I've done this same test (with headphones on) on 6 different CX-3's as well as had confirmation from others online who have tried it and confirmed it.

 

Are you playing through computer speakers? If so, you won't hear it.

 

I'm downloading (from work) and going to test with a crappy set of ear buds I have in the office to see if quality of headphones will make much difference.

 

-Mc

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Just confirmed on the sound file I uploaded. Give it a little volume and with headphones, you can't miss it. If you wait until the note progression is over and listen to the chord progression from Foreplay, you'll hear it.

 

I have very sensitive hearing as well as perfect pitch but suspect anyone can hear this...

 

-Mc

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I haven't listened to your sound clip (I'm at work) but I'm curious. Have you tried doing the test you referred to on an actual Hammond? I've owned a few, and if you're holding down certain combinations of high notes with certain drawbar settings, you can sometimes get some results that are less than pleasing. Just curious, as it seems it's at least possible you're hearing something that's somewhat 'normal'. I've played most of the clonewheels out there including both the new and old CX-3, and never noticed anything that out of the ordinary. In fact, I think most of the newer clonewheels do a respectable job of imitating the real deal. There's nothing like the real thing, but I'm happy with my clonewheel when I'm loading for a gig.

 

Of course, I never set out to try the test you have specifically referred to.

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I don't hear anything that resembles aliasing as i know it.

And i have asked for clips of aliasing here before ;)

 

I hear some very high overtones that sharpen the sound, but they seem to be in tune, not more or less random as aliasing tends to be...

 

I do admit to having tin ears

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I'm still not hearing it (decent Bose headphones). It sounds like a Hammond. Any of them (including the real deal) can get shrill if untamed. Maybe the CX3 isn't for you. Have you played the VK-8(M), Electro or Hammond XK? Do those sound bad to you too?

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I'm with bdub on this after listening through ADAM A7 speakers. It sounds like a naked organ sound, perhaps shrill, but not onerous to my ears. Let's hear the same thing on the analog CX-3 as that is what this thread was asking about in the first place. Either way, I don't know exactly what that test proves if you're using the organ with either built in Leslie and amp sim FX or using a real rotary speaker. I think the new CX3 is a great clone, perhaps superseded by a few more recent competitors (e.g. Hammond XK3c, Nord Electro 3).

 

Regards,

Eric

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I can hear what he's talking about, at least I think I can. Even on my PC speakers (they are decent enough for cranking tunes, not cheapos) In the first part where he's playing the descending line, you can hear strange overtones as each new note is sounded. Not sure if that's it, but that's what I heard. It wouldn't bug me regardless, in a live context with the band playing it wouldn't be heard.

 

Now, do the other clones make those same overtones?

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I've played the Hammond line and don't hear it nearly as bad.

 

dan88z, you're hearing what I'm talking about. In a band setting, you don't hear it. But when it's a simple chord and no band is playing (e.g. Foreplay), it's very noticeable. It's bad enough that the two times I used it live, the sound guy mentioned it.

 

If it weren't for this one single issue, I'd say the CX-3 is one of the best clones on the market. It easily beats the XK-1 and I liked it better than the XK-3 when I compared them.

 

If a real B3 made those same noises, it'd be one thing as Korg went out of their way to replicate everything they could. But NO organ I've played makes noises that loud. While many make that dissonant harmonic, none are that pronounced.

 

If you haven't played the demo through headphones, please do. And when you do, just listen to that 2nd chord from Foreplay and it'll make your eyes cross.

 

Now in case anyone's curious, I'm not a Korg basher. All of my gear is Korg for a reason. I just feel this one issue is bad enough for some it's an issue.

 

-Mc

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Yeah, I definitely hear what you are talking about. Ugh.

 

However, you have the reverb turned on, it seems. I assume this is the built-in verb? Built-in reverbs can be pretty bad in adding digital artifacts and I'd first think it was this, not the CX-3 itself. Try turning off the verb and re-record?

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I just left the reverb on so it wasn't TOO dry. That noise is on EVERY organ patch, whether playing a clean sound or a dirty sound.

 

Whether it's called aliasing, overtones, dissonant harmonics, whatever, it's not a desirable sound and I would love to get rid of it. I've tried EQ'ing it out, running without the AMP simulation (the organ clip has no amp simulation), playing it quiet, etc and it's there whether you like it or not.

 

Like I showed in the clip, playing that chord progression in Foreplay KILLS people in the audience. It kills me.

 

Unless Korg can fix that noise issue, I wouldn't recommend a CX-3 (II). It limits what I can do with it. :( Believe me, I live and breathe Korg gear so this is hard to say about any Korg product.

 

-Mc

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From your recording, it sounds like you're playing those chords an octave too high and with the wrong drawbar settings...that right there could be the problem. I'm flat on my back with the flu, but I'll record myself playing the song (or what I can still remember of it) on my CX-3 and post it for comparison. I might even have an MP3 from a practice around here somewhere...let me have a look.

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