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Anyone make orchestral music?


Stabby

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I need some advice. I would like to know more about making orchestral music with romplers. Though it definately takes a while, I should first know the very basics:

 

1. Composition of an orchestra: I already know the set-up by looking it up, but my sounds on my workstation should match. I'm not saying it should be very realistic though. I want to use some old romplers beside my Yamaha MO8.

2. How to play each part. Strings and brass play very different than piano. I should develop the right technique to make these instruments sound good. Some basic knowledge like which kind of chords to use, etc.

 

And that's it so far. Does anyone know a good source for this kind of information?

 

Everything else I will gradually learn by listening and listening and listening more. The style I'm going for is the e.g. the soundtrack of Super Mario Galaxy and this nice demo.

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I need some advice. I would like to know more about making orchestral music with romplers. Though it definately takes a while, I should first know the very basics:


1. Composition of an orchestra: I already know the set-up by looking it up, but my sounds on my workstation should match. I'm not saying it should be very realistic though. I want to use some old romplers beside my Yamaha MO8.

2. How to play each part. Strings and brass play very different than piano. I should develop the right technique to make these instruments sound good. Some basic knowledge like which kind of chords to use, etc.


And that's it so far. Does anyone know a good source for this kind of information?


Everything else I will gradually learn by listening and listening and listening more. The style I'm going for is the e.g. the soundtrack of Super Mario Galaxy and
.

 

 

Do not try to be too exact... making music is more like art than science. Composing orchestral song does not necessary mean you have to use brass and string sounds. The best advice I can give you, just make and play music as you like the best! That's my own approach to making music.

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Great thread, Stabby.

 

I won't be of great help here, but remember one thing: orchestral music is very dynamic. One thing you'll absolutely need is the use of volume envelopes on your DAW [crescendos & diminuendos]. Velocity is very important too [hitting the keys harder in "dramatic" passages, etc]. Tempo fluctuations is another beast to fight with when the theme of your music requires it. Just like the dynamic aspect, it will embellish the musical expressivness tremendously [again, it all depends on the theme of your music].

 

One last thing [but very important, in my opinion]:

 

I have listened to a lot of orchestral music composed on synthesizers [mostly by non-pros] and have noticed a very common "mistake" and widely overlooked detail about the use of wind instruments specifically. The flute for example: I would hear a passage that lasts much longer than the human breath allows. It makes the music sound very artificial when the song is meant to be orchestral/classical. Just listen to any orchestral piece that has wind instruments. A musician must eventually catch his/her breath before blowing again into their instrument.

 

I want to use some old romplers beside my Yamaha MO8.

 

In my opinion, Roland synths have the best-sounding orchestral sounds you'll find.

 

Everything else I will gradually learn by listening and listening and listening more.

 

That's actually the best advice one can give. But you gave it to yourself, so I'm just repeating it:thu: Use good headphones to decypher things.

__________________

 

I agree with AnalogGuy's reply to a certain extent. Even if this is about orchestral music, don't restrict yourself too much to what's standard and conventional. Follow your creative instinct and inspiration.

__________________

 

I once strated a somewhat related thread and you should print this chart and hang it in front of your synth. I wish you the best in your new endeavour:)

 

instrumentrange.jpg

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Mediterranean, thank you! That is very helpful. The orchestra doesn't necessary have to sound realistic though! I love those old rompler sounds. Something is very charming about them.

 

 

I would also add that perhaps some reading on composing would help. Knowledge is power.

 

 

Any recommendations? I'd like something very basic. I don't want to go very deep into the matter just yet (time and energy constraints).

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....

Any recommendations? I'd like something very basic. I don't want to go very deep into the matter just yet (time and energy constraints).

 

 

 

This is the standard textbook:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Orchestration-Walter-Piston/dp/0393097404

 

but if, as you say, you don't want to delve deeply yet, a search will probably turn up some internet stuff.

If you do decide later you want to learn more, you don't have to buy the textbook. A local library will almost certainly have a copy of it.

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Any recommendations? .

 

 

http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/ranges.html

 

http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.o/O-3.html

 

This site: http://imslp.org/ has thousands of scores. See what others do. Start with the earlier guys like Beethoven, the scores aren't as complex.

 

 

2. How to play each part. Strings and brass play very different than piano. I should develop the right technique to make these instruments sound good. Some basic knowledge like which kind of chords to use, etc.

 

 

Orchestral instruments are linear. Many are monophonic. Treat them all that way for starters. Think in terms of lines, not chords.

 

Everything is in a group. Once you know the group and the string wind alternative, it's easier.

 

Strings:

 

Violin 1

Violin 2

Viola

Cello Bass

 

Violin 1 is usually a melody instrument. Violin 2 harmonizes. Viola occupies the middle ground. Cello and bass are bottom feeders. Strings aren't bunched together like notes in a piano chord. They can be octaves apart. Second violin often doubles 1st an octave lower, especially if the 1sts are playing something high. They need support for intonation purposes.

 

Flutes

Oboes

Clarinets

Bassoons

Horns.

 

They are similiar to strings in that flute and oboe usually play lead, clarinet is middle and often doubles viola parts. The bassoon is the cello of the woodwinds. Horns are switch hitters between being brass and woodwinds. In the orchestra they are considered part of the woodwinds usually.

 

Strings play most if not all of the time. Winds are more sporadic, as they need to breathe and rest. The winds supply the colors of the orchestra.

 

Brass:

 

trumpets

trombones

tuba

 

They play the least. They are used most effectively for power. They can easily drown out the strings.

 

Timpani is a very important part. There are usually 3 kettles, so you only can use 3 notes. Use them sparingly.

 

Harpists are usually pianists too. A harp part is similiar to a piano but often higher. Percussion uses lets of bells and things like bass drum. Snare is not that common. The best bet is to stick with tubular bells, xylophone, marimba, crash cymbals at climaxes (insert climax joke here).

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Thank you so much! That clarifies a lot.

 

Just a few things I don't get:

 

 

Violin 1 is usually a melody instrument. Violin 2 harmonizes. Viola occupies the middle ground. Cello and bass are bottom feeders.

 

 

If I get this right, violin is soprano, viola alto and cello is tenor and bass off course is bass?

 

Also, I'm not sure what harmonizing means. What should I do with a string ensemble patch? Can I play violin 1 and 2 on the same patch?

 

Finally, I have a brass patch on my synth called BoneSection. What instrument does this section consist of?

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Thank you so much! That clarifies a lot.


Just a few things I don't get:




If I get this right, violin is soprano, viola alto and cello is tenor and bass off course is bass?



 

Viola literally reads the Alto Clef. When cello goes high, they read tenor clef (usually they read bass clef).

 

Also, I'm not sure what harmonizing means.

 

If violin 1 has melody, violin 2 will play a harmony line. 3rds, octaves, whatever fits.

 

What should I do with a string ensemble patch?

 

Be careful of it.:lol: As I said, strings are linear. Think linear, which means each part gets it's own staff, own part, own freedom. If you see a string orchestra, there will be 5 sections. All 5 will be doing different things. With one synth patch, there is a tendency to write chords. This isnt very effective string writing.

 

Finally, I have a brass patch on my synth called BoneSection. What instrument does this section consist of?

 

Bone is slang for Trombone.

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Possibly i'm not the best person to ask as i only do 'switched on' arrangements of orchestral stuff, but what i will say has helped is watching a few performances of the work on youtube to get a feel for the piece and how it should be performed. Translating that to mainly pure synthesis is something else, but usually it helps, even if your sounds are nothing like the actual instrument, to try and keep them somehow of a kind, if that makes sense.

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Thanks. I'm ready to start experimenting
:thu:

By the way, is the picture of the string ranges in this topic correct?The cello, double bass and violin are presented as having a much bigger range than the link you posted.

 

Strings have a finite low range but an infinite high range. That said, keep the lower strings in a reasonable range. Violin 1 can go high.

 

Solo strings and orchestral strings are different. In orchestral writing, you don't want to go into the super-high ranges.

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I've made a couple of vids on the subject.

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

 

 

The above video stresses the use of controllers (breath), which can be expressive.

 

I don't have the kind of string knowledge that Cygnus has, but I will tell you that no single program is going to cover it. I did this 40 second demo about 3 years back:

 

STRINGS

 

 

 

I"m not saying you have to do it this way, but as an example, my typical string set up is:

 

Large string section - slow attack.

Pizzicato section

Tremolo section (one panned left, one panned right)

Spiccato section (one panned left, one panned right)

Cello (left)

Viola (center-left)

Violin (right)

 

 

 

Look at an orchestral map (below) and you will see how strings are divided- Basses, Cellos, Violas, 2nd Violins, 1st Violins. You can position them going from left to right, or vice versa. Remember that some low sounds need to come from the right, to help balance the spectrum.

 

090202Salonensm.jpg

 

 

Since ROMplers use section instruments - Tremolo, Pizzicato, full section are all made up of the basses, cellos, violas, violins playing together. A simple trick you can use is taking a Tremolo program and panning it by note number - low notes are panned left and high notes panned right - giving you a left right and middle from a single program. However, you might try the opposite setting on a horn section.

 

Personally, I double up certain sections - one program on the left and another of the same program on the right. This allows me to do a series of notes on the left, which are answered by different notes on the right - kind of like a school pep assembly with two sides taking turns chanting. You can do this with strings, choruses, Brass, percussion, etc.

 

Speaking of percussion, this can bring a lot of realism to your orchestral piece. Timpanis are obvious, but concert basses, sticks, blocks, cymbals, gongs, Marktrees, Latin drums and many other sound can really help, especially if you use a lot of them. Proper reverb helps, too.

 

Some good percussie examples are the scores for TERMINATOR 1 or 2 or Bear McCreary's sound set for THE SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES. For the TV series score, they got as many metal percussive sounds as they could. Once they established that huge "Bum bum b bum" sound, they needed only minimal sounds on top of that, like a string quartet, guitar and electric violin. Yet, the sound was "big", all because of the percussion.

 

 

For a big section sound, I used to layer several ROMplers on top of each other. Since they were different brands - Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc., they sounded kind of cool and didn't get too muddy, like when you combine similar sounds from the same source library. Did this 5 years ago. I wouldn't say this is realistic, but there was something "big" about it that I liked:

 

LAB CHASE

 

 

 

This Main Title song is a more current example, though a lot of synth tones are mixed with the samples.

 

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

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Nice stuff, Mike.:thu:

 

For soundtrack or crossoverish music, rules can be broken. One problem (as Mike mentioned) in a symphony is balance. High instruments are on the left, low ones the right. It works in a concert hall, but might not work on a soundtrack where you probably want the basses in the middle.

 

For symphonic emulation, Violin 1 is ALWAYS on the left. I've played thousands of concerts and I've never sat on the right side of the stage, ever.:lol:

 

Look at an orchestral map (below)

 

That's a good reference map for panning. 95% of orchestras sit like that. On occasion, some conductors divide the violins, with the firsts on the left and seconds on the right. I personally can't stand that, I think it's better to have them together.

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In my opinion, Roland synths have the best-sounding orchestral sounds you'll find.

 

If talking about older Roland romplers, then perhaps yes (and even then Korg had better strings).

 

If talking about newer Rolands, then HELL NO.

 

PC3 smokes them all when orchestrals are concerned. :thu:

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Thank you for joining the thread, Mike!

 

 

The above video stresses the use of controllers (breath), which can be expressive.

 

 

Sadly, the Yamaha MO8 isn't compatible with breath controllers. Perhaps an expression pedal might work as well?

 

 

Since ROMplers use section instruments - Tremolo, Pizzicato, full section are all made up of the basses, cellos, violas, violins playing together. A simple trick you can use is taking a Tremolo program and panning it by note number - low notes are panned left and high notes panned right - giving you a left right and middle from a single program. However, you might try the opposite setting on a horn section.

 

 

I've got an idea of my own, though I don't know if it would work. Could I be able to make a better string section? I am able to make a performance on my synth with up to 16 different patches. I have 88 keys. I could assign a cello ensemble on the first 1,5 octaves of the piano (the first 15 keys), a seperate viola ensemble patch to the next 3 octaves and a violin to the last 3 octaves. Of course I can edit each part to play their correct range. This way I use a different sample for each instrument group. I think that could sound way better than a patch using one ensemble sample.

 

 

Personally, I double up certain sections - one program on the left and another of the same program on the right. This allows me to do a series of notes on the left, which are answered by different notes on the right - kind of like a school pep assembly with two sides taking turns chanting. You can do this with strings, choruses, Brass, percussion, etc.

 

 

Not sure if I understand this. You're saying one program on the left and another program of the same program on the right? I don't really get that.

 

 

For a big section sound, I used to layer several ROMplers on top of each other. Since they were different brands - Yamaha, Roland, Korg, etc., they sounded kind of cool and didn't get too muddy, like when you combine similar sounds from the same source library. Did this 5 years ago. I wouldn't say this is realistic, but there was something "big" about it that I liked:


 

 

That sounds fantastic! Very big sound.

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There are a few things to keep in mind when trying to do orchestral emulations. One critical point is that you have to be careful never to layer the same sample with itself at the same pitch. This can happen if you are playing in violin 1 and 2 parts on separate sequence tracks and the two parts alternate between playing in octaves, thirds and unisons. Identical samples in unison create flanging which kills your realism. With string sections careful layering of different sources can be more important than having the absolutely best sample library. Pay close attention to release times. A lot of factory string presets have ridiculously long release times that will sound very muddy playing actual string parts. On the other hand if your releases are too short any sampled string section will sound more like an accordion. Assigning a continuous controller to release time is a great strategy for any acoustic instrument emulation, there's never one release time that works for legato and staccatto articulations.

 

If I had to put together a few currently available Romplers for orchestral work I would suggest a Roland Fantom XR with SRX04 string SRX06 orchestra and SRX10 brass cards combined with a MOTIF XS keyboard or rack. The Kurzweil PC3 also has some nice string and wind elements.

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Pay close attention to release times. A

 

I draw mine in.:thu:

 

Strings don't sustain long notes, they taper them. A synth doesn't do that, it sustains. Therefore, a record the string part to audio, and draw in attacks and releases.

 

I've got an idea of my own, though I don't know if it would work. Could I be able to make a better string section? I am able to make a performance on my synth with up to 16 different patches. I have 88 keys. I could assign a cello ensemble on the first 1,5 octaves of the piano (the first 15 keys), a seperate viola ensemble patch to the next 3 octaves and a violin to the last 3 octaves. Of course I can edit each part to play their correct range. This way I use a different sample for each instrument group. I think that could sound way better than a patch using one ensemble sample.

 

I don't really see the need for that. It might be useful live, but if you're playing live then you're probably playing "pads" and not emulating orchestras.

 

 

I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep string parts seperate. Cellos and violins do very different things musically. When all the instruments are on on keybed, players tend to think in terms of "chords". Think instead in terms of "lines". Cello will do accomp.

 

Here is a link to a score and individual string parts that you can download:

 

http://imslp.org/wiki/Holberg_Suite,_Op.40_(Grieg,_Edvard)

 

No matter what your music reading skills are, look at the score. The 5 parts do completely different things. That's the key to effective string writing.

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So in what order do you think I should experiment with strings first? (just to start experimenting, not that there should be a rule). Cello first, like you would start out with bass? Then I have viola and violin I and II, how should I deal with these? Can I play viola and violin I together, or viola+violin II or all three together?

 

Also, can I use chords on the seperate parts? On the violin for example, I can imagine that a few violins play a certain note, others play another note,... and you have a chord.

 

I will study the score in your link. However, what's a violoncello? Looking at the first picture posted, it has a much bigger range than the cello. I looked it up, but I wouldn't know which patch on my synth is a violoncello since there's no patch with that name.

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However, what's a violoncello?.

 

It's the real name. "Cello" is like accepted slang.:lol:

 

So in what order do you think I should experiment with strings first? (just to start experimenting, not that there should be a rule). Cello first, like you would start out with bass? Then I have viola and violin I and II, how should I deal with these? Can I play viola and violin I together, or viola+violin II or all three together?


Also, can I use chords on the seperate parts? On the violin for example, I can imagine that a few violins play a certain note, others play another note,... and you have a chord.

 

Rules are meant to be broken. You can do all kinds of things. If the strings are in pop music, usually they are playing whole notes (pads) in the background. If it's classical, the violin 1 will usually have the melody. I would listen to a bunch of classical stuff to get ideas.

 

I will study the score in your link. However, what's a violoncello? Looking at the first picture posted, it has a much bigger range than the cello.

 

The bigger the range, the harder it is for the players. Yes, strings have a huge range. Don't worry about it. Keep the cellos and basses low, the violas in the middle, and the fiddles high (insert drug joke here).

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Rules are meant to be broken. You can do all kinds of things. If the strings are in pop music, usually they are playing whole notes (pads) in the background. If it's classical, the violin 1 will usually have the melody. I would listen to a bunch of classical stuff to get ideas.

 

But the best way to break the rules is to know them first :)

 

I am listening to lots of orchestral music at the moment, but nothing classic. I don't really like classical music that much, but I do love orchestral game music.

 

Maybe a couple of tips for listening better? I can't make out the violins from the viola and violin I from violin II quite yet. They sound very much alike. The cello however stands out.

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