Clavinovas and the like

[trevcda]

Can someone please explain to me why a mediocre keyboard hooked to a lack luster, low polyphony sound module run into a pair of car speakers in an MDF cabinet goes for so much money? Is their target market old people who have no idea how much keyboard that same money will buy in the professional market? I'm baffled...

[RockPianoman]

Well, if it's old it might have been impressive when it was released......my P-70 piano beats sooooooo many pianos because it's still fairly new (2006) but I've heard older Clavinovas that had terrible sound.....there were also a wide range in that market....entry level often didn't compete with upper end....my old Yamaha PF-80 piano had pretty awful sound too.....I sure don't miss it....the PF-80 had all DX7 sounds.....I'm sure there were probably Clavinovas that did too......the DX7 always did crappy acoustic piano.....

 

I wouldn't want to move a lot of Clavinovas I've seen....too heavy.....they were designed to be used at home (at least a lot of them were).....I've seen some you could move pretty easily....

[ChipCurtis]

To an extent what you're saying about these being marketed to old school home piano and organ customers is true, however that doesn't change the fact that the Clavinovas are generally the best of all Yamaha's digital piano lines. But you have to compare models by relative year of release. Of course a clavinova from 1996 is not going to sound or feel anywhere near as realistic a piano as a Motif or CP-300 from 15 years later.

 

Yes, the home furniture (or faux grand piano) casing is generally excessive, but that just goes with the intended marketing.

 

Many of the Clavinova models have extensive workstation and arranger features, and most have a top of the line graded hammer action with the best AWM piano samples available to Yamaha at the time. Generally, it goes like this: Yamaha's most advanced piano sampling goes first into the Clavinovas, then into the Motifs and CP line, then into S series, and so on.

[zzzxtreme]

I recently sold my clavinova clp330 for the money. I think I will surely get another one or equivalent. GH3 keybed is oh so awesome. I don't know, I've played Motif XS/PC3LE pianos thru HS50ms, Esi Near, HS80ms, I still prefer the sound of a clavinova with its (apparently) cheap car speakers. I think the most expensive part of a clavinova is the keybed

[Ghostpaw]

GH3 keybed is oh so awesome. I think the most expensive part of a clavinova is the keybed

 

I love the way mine feels.

[wesg]

You buy a Clavinova for the same reason folks used to buy upright pianos. Just you don't have to tune the Clavinova.

 

I'm not sure what's with the lack of love for these, they are completely not gig machines, but they sound and play great.

 

Wes

[ChipCurtis]

It is also worth noting that, aside from appealing to the home piano market, Clavinovas are used by trained classical musicians the world over, who have a very good ear (and feel) for piano realism. These things are often sold to classical orchestras and training schools. Yamaha puts a lot of effort into making sure the Clavinova line is the best of their products when it comes to piano realism.

 

These things are also built like beasts. My old CLP-350 from 1988 still serves me well, it still gets gigged (removed from its original stand), and has held up nicely all these years. The keybed is the best 88-key weighted board I have ever played on. It's in the ballpark of quality of the old Kurzweil MidiBoard, and the old Yamaha KX88 controller.

[davd_indigo]

I'm currently planning on buying one of the new line of Clavinovas around October 2015. The CLP-585. I need to audition it, but it has nice reviews. I want it primarily as a piano. But for recording (I'm just recording with a microphone - no MIDI) and playing with other musicians (i.e. the volume issues with many guitar players) it should be just what I want. I'm currently playing a Yamaha P140 with a couple of Genelec monitors added to beef up the volume when needed.

 

David

[trevcda]

Wow! Great replies. Yeah, I know age, production year and price point all factor in the quality of the equipment just like anything else. My frustration was in trying to find a simple piano like davd_indigo above and find nothing but less than stellar options. My mother bought a Clavinova many years ago and I hate that thing. I have several keyboards and racks of modules as well several Hammonds, Rhodes and other vintage keyboards. What would you guys recommend for a simple 88 key hammer weighted keyboard with a great piano sound that will never, ever leave my living room. I'm getting rusty and I just want something that will always be set up and ready to play. Thanks again for the replies.

[SpaceNorman]

...I just want something that will always be set up and ready to play.

 

Assuming you're not interested in a real piano (many of which are can be found on a "free to a good home" basis these days) - I'd keep my eyes peeled for a Yamaha CP300 to fill this bill. While not the latest and greatest in terms of piano sounds - it's within spitting distance of that bar. It's also got a great playing keybed - along with a very usable recording capability. There are a number of other sounds that are by and large pretty decent as well. Plus, it's also got the best "built in speaker system" out there - which will go a long way towards meeting your "always set up and ready to play" requirement.

 

I'm still gigging with mine. But it's my "go to" keyboard when I need a piano at home and don't feel like screwing around setting up my gig rig.

[trevcda]

I'd keep my eyes peeled for a Yamaha CP300

 

I read Yamaha CP and instantly thought CP-80! No thanks! I My uncle carted one of those things around for years. It wasn't until I got to haul around a B3 that I realized how good I had it! The 300 looks nice, and considerably lighter, although it bit more capable than I'm looking for in this particular use of a keyboard. I came across a Roland FP-8 on Craigslist for a decent price. It has a couple of broken keys, but I've dug into keyboard innards before. Frankly the 28 voice polyphony is more off putting to me. Anyone have any experience with one of those?

[wesg]

The first time I played a CP-5, it was so good I almost fell off my bench. It comes with a pretty big price tag, though. I have been thinking about buying a CP-4, half the price, same action (or so I've read). I don't know what it is about wooden keys, I would never have believed they mattered if I didn't try them for myself. I didn't even know the piano was any good, I just sat down as a sub at a rehearsal and started playing it.

 

Re the FP-8, no experience, but I rather like the FP-4F. 28 note polyphony is better than most stuff had years ago. How many fingers do you have, anyway?

 

Wes

[JeffLearman]

I've played only one Clavinova, back in say 2004. At a friend's house, over to jam, he says "You can play my wif'e's Clavinova if you like." Great, less gear to haul, and I respect Yamaha products. I sit down and YECH! It made my teeth go sour. Horrible thing! No idea which model or how old, but I ran out to my car and brought in my 1997 Ensoniq MR76.

 

But I bet there is a very wide range of quality on Clavinovas, and I bet there are plenty I'd be happy to play.

 

As far as a piano for the living room, I can't help in regards to decor, but a used Casio CDP-100 or Privia can often be found on Craigslist for as low as $250, often including the matching stand. These are really decent pianos, plenty good enough for most of us, and really affordable. They're selling for not much less than they cost new 10 years ago, simply because a piano that's good enough for a student or a gig is worth $250 at least. Same story but slightly higher price (and many would say slightly better sound) for Yamaha P95 and P105. These all have matching stands but you can use an X stand (not that my wife would tolerate an X stand in the living room) and they come off the stand and are very light and portable for gigging or jamming with friends. They have built-in speakers. Of course, they sound better through a decent small PA.

 

I just got a new Yamaha CP4 for $1850 (free shipping) as a user return. That's about 15% off the street price new, so clearly the 15% restocking fee was passed on as savings to me, and I couldn't tell it from a brand new one. It's a really great piano, with the best action I've played in a digital piano, other than ones with real grand piano actions (like the Yamaha AvantGrand N3). No built-in speakers. At 38 lbs, it's not as light as the above, but if you won't move it, that's no issue. It needs a stand separate, so it won't look like nice furniture for the living room. But damn, what a nice DP. If you shop around or wait for a sale, chances are good you can find one under $2000. It also has great Rhodes and Wurlitzer, plus a bunch other useful sounds.

 

I also like the Roland FP4, which a friend has and I've played quite a bit. The FP4F is the newer model, which most FP4 owners don't prefer to the FP4, but it's still a great DP. I particularly like its Rhodes, which is not authentic, but is very musical and useful and serves the purpose. (I say this as a long time Rhodes owner and pretty serious fanatic.)

 

There are a lot of very good DP's available today, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one used. However, dodgy keys are often very difficult to fix. It depends on the reason. If they feel right but just don't sound, or sound at the wrong volume, then it's most likely the little black discs in the rubber switches need to be cleaned off, which you can do with a pencil eraser. Note that each key has two switches (on most keyboards), one at the top of travel and one at the bottom, to determine velocity by measuring the time interval between them. If the key doesn't sound at all, it's usually the bottom contacts. If it sounds at full volume even when played lightly, it's usually the top contacts. Either problem is often intermittent.

[ChipCurtis]

I've played only one Clavinova, back in say 2004. At a friend's house, over to jam, he says "You can play my wif'e's Clavinova if you like." Great, less gear to haul, and I respect Yamaha products. I sit down and YECH! It made my teeth go sour. Horrible thing! No idea which model or how old, but I ran out to my car and brought in my 1997 Ensoniq MR76.

 

But I bet there is a very wide range of quality on Clavinovas, and I bet there are plenty I'd be happy to play.

 

IMO, Yamaha uses the "Clavinova" badge too liberally over a wide range of quality levels. I know for a fact that the CLP-350 that I have sounds and plays a hell of a lot better than some Clavinova models from the early 90s. I remember playing an early 90s model at a friend's house some 15 years ago, and it sounded pretty cheesy and the action was not very good. Seemed like a huge quality downgrade from my 1988 model.

 

To make matters more complicated, the "Clavinova" badge covers DPs from large, faux-piano-cased monsters with tons of sequencing and arranging/workstation features, to simple plastic-cased or particle-board-cased "ROMplers" with no workstation/arranger features at all, and only a handful of preset sounds. Most of which are completely useless (other than the really good Vibraphone preset on my model).

 

My CLP-350, without the stand, has a footprint (both in size and weight) of roughly a CP-300. It's really nice to have a flat top that you can plop a 61-key synth on top, without needing a 2-tier stand.

 

[trevcda]

Just a quick update: After some one hit and ran one of my vehicles and did $6500 worth of damage, the money I had set aside for this keyboard got reallocated towards my insurance deductible, so I'm not spending what I thought I was going to. But you can kick me down... but I'll find something to play with while I'm down there!

 

I ended up picking up the Roland FP8 for $60. If there's one thing I love as much as playing, it's taking stuff apart and fixing it. The sound engine was working fine. It has a limited number of sounds and the main piano sound reminds me of the U220 piano, which I did a lot of writing on. As I said before, I just wanted a usable piano to plink around on. BUT- I should have probably done a little more homework. It turns out that the hammer design on this and a number of Roland hammer weighted keyboards is susceptible to failure. Predominantly the white keys, I'm told. The plastic material that surrounds the weighted end tends to get brittle with age and the weight breaks off. I suspect that aggressive playing expedites this failure, but looking at all the hammer weights when I completely tore down the keyboard for cleaning, they all exhibit cracking in the same failure point. I am posting this so that others have a heads up on the issue with some older Roland keyboards. Anyway I cleaned the keybed contacts, the keys and moved the broken hammer weights to highest and lowest keys and will attempt to repair the them with a two part epoxy. I could order new hammer weights at around $11 each, but if they all have the potential for failing I need to find an acceptable repair or accept defeat and start again with something else.

 

Added at 8:46pm: Removed the clamps, checked the bond, reassembled the keyboard and now have 88 working keys. Altogether, I'm into this keyboard for around $70 and five or six hours in time. I have no doubt that over time other hammer weights may break, but they can be repaired and suitable for a living digital piano that will get treated gently. I'm not sure I'd trust this fix to a board intended for the road though.

 

There's mention of Roland acknowledging the issue and offering to replace some of the hammers for original owners that can produce a valid receipt:

 

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbt...y_hammer_.html

 

Not being an original owner, I didn't pursue that option any further than that link. If there are any Roland people on here that want to offer up some hammers, I'm all ears! Syntaur offers an improved version which can be found here:

 

https://syntaur.com/Items/4920.html

[wesg]

Great follow-up, trevcda. I think you might have won the value/price equation for the week, even if you only get 6 or 8 months of use out of it!

 

Wes

[pinkfloydcramer61]

Another vote for the CP300. I picked up one used, with flight case, for $1500 a couple of years ago but have seen them lower than that on CL since. I'm big on onboard speakers because I do solo wallpaper gigs where they are (in the CP300's case) enough by themselves. And on combo gigs, they provide in-my-face stereo monitoring even though a bigger, single/mono speaker carries FOH. What I like about the CP300 is the stereo line-ins which eliminate the need for a separate mixer and minimize my limited set-up time and clutter (setting up Captain Keyboard Command Stations not being an option for me). I also like being able to sit my tiny little Hammond SK1 or a module on top and not need a double-tier stand. And RE replacing keys, it's very doable on Yamaha DP's with videos to help you along. Fortunately, that's rarely necessary with the CP300 because it has a very durable action.

 

I also used to use a Kawai ES-4 and enjoyed it, it also had good-sounding (although not as powerful) onboard speakers with stereo line-ins. The keys felt very nice also, but were not as durable as most newer Yamaha actions, in other words, they weren't Freebird-proof.