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ABLETON LIVE 5 (DAW software)


Anderton

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Live 5 – Prologue

 

I was talking with a local avant-garde musician who uses Live for live resampling. I asked if he’d checked out Live 5 yet. “I don’t know…seems they’re getting greedy with their updates.” I was somewhat taken aback, but he explained “I’ve been with it since the beginning, and I keep spending money on updates…I’m probably up to about a $1,000 investment. Someone who’s just buying it now would get all the same features, for half the price.”

 

“But,” I said, “you’ve been able to use it for all these years. That must be worth something. And each update has been pretty significant: Elastic audio, MIDI and instrument support…and I can assure you we’re not talking about a Microsoft-sized company here. It’s people who like the program and buy updates who fuel additional development.”

 

He saw my point, then said “But is Live 5 really that big a deal compared to Live 4 that it’s worth the upgrade price?”

 

Well, that’s what existing Live fans want to know. And non-Live users want to know whether Live 5 has reached a point where they can contemplate replacing their existing host with something that's perhaps a better option...let's investigate both aspects.

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For a list of features and system requirements, click here

 

For a list of what’s new in the program, click here

 

Ableton says Live 5 is their most significant upgrade yet. While previous upgrades have concentrated on adding some major feature, Live 5’s changes extend throughout the program. Almost as if to drive the point home, Ableton’s trademark “green” look is gone, replaced by Basic Black. It seems like they’re trying to say “This is a different program.”

 

The classy-looking package (click on the Attachment button to see it) includes three CDs: Program Disc, Library Disc with over 400MB of loops from Big Fish Audio, and a third demo CD of the program to pass along to a friend. There’s a 288 page manual - Ableton does a very good job with manuals. Although there’s no Quick Start guide, the program itself has several video “lessons.”

 

I installed the program, then immediately checked the web site. Sure enough, there was an update: 5.0.1, about a 40MB file. As I don’t have broadband yet - and to add insult to injury, my dial-up connection is 28.8kbps on a good day - it took a while to get the upload and install it, which is why this review started a few days late.

 

Copy protection consists of entering a serial number, then going to the web site and getting an unlock code. The licensing agreement is the usual mind-numbing collection of fine print, but here are the basics:

 

 You can use it on only one machine at a time.

 Ableton will give you two unlocks, so you can install on laptop and desktop – Ableton relies on the “honor system” that you won’t use them at the same time.

 The demo version is unusually generous – it provides all features for an unlimited amount of time, but you can’t save or export. Ableton points out that if you’re playing live and run into some disaster situation, you can also install the demo and at least be able to play back any files you’ve prepared as backing tracks. Good point.

 

Okay, let’s check out the features, with an accent on what's new. And of course, because this is an interactive review, feel free to fire away with questions.

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I admit it - I rarely go through tutorials. But hey, it’s a Pro Review and you want to know if they’re cool or not, so I figured I should do my homework and check them out.

 

Turns out they’re actually pretty useful and quite well done. The “Tour” loads an example file, then takes you through all the main operations: clips, scenes, mixing, and the like. If you’re new to Live, this would be extremely helpful. The Tour tutorial has 27 pages and includes a fair amount of material, but not so much as to be overwhelming.

 

The tutorial appears in a strip along the right (click on Attachment to see the basic format), with the example file loaded into Live - most lessons have accompanying demo files. There are plenty of screen shots to show where you’re supposed to click, and the whole process is clear.

 

The five “Quick Start” tutorials include the tour, recording with Live, software instruments, creating beats, and DJ-ing with Live. Four additional tutorials explain working with Live (e.g., editing arrangements), but perhaps the most useful one for those getting into computer-based recording will be the two on “Setting Up Audio I/O” and “Setting Up Latency Compensation.”

 

Two remaining groups of tutorials cover what’s new in Live 5 (four tutorials), and the other group (six tutorials) deals with using the Operator software instrument. (A demo version of Operator comes with Live 5, but for full functionality, you’ll need to buy it - $149, 129 Euro).

 

Bottom line: Between these and the manual, if you’re willing to put some time into learning Live, you’ll learn it.

 

Next up: The Freeze function, one of Live 5's big features...we'll see how its ease of use compares with other programs.

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In case you’re not familiar with the concept of freezing (no, I'm not talking about Minnesota in January), this converts tracks that use processor-intensive devices (e.g., software synthesizers, plug-ins, or both) to hard disk tracks, which are much kinder on your CPU.

 

Live 5’s freeze function is basic: You select the track and click Freeze – the program creates a background hard disk track, and you’re done. Although you can’t do any editing of the track in terms of notes/cut/paste new data etc., functions that are “external” to the track (volume, pan, and mute) still work. Even better, you can launch and stop frozen clips. Of course, you can also unfreeze as needed if you want to do any editing, then re-freeze.

 

The only change to the GUI is that the frozen track, and the frozen elements within the track (e.g., soft synth) have a sort of “scrim” over them, like you’re seeing them through a thin layer of ice (click on the Attachment button to see this). You don’t see any actual hard disk track or waveform data, as this is all handled in the background.

 

One problem I ran into occurred when trying to freeze the MIDI track driving the Impulse synth; I received an error message that said “Track Routing Choose Entry ‘4-Beats’ ‘1-Impulse’ Prohibits Freeze.” Well, that didn’t tell me much, and the manual didn’t mention anything about conditions that prohibit freeze. But I know some of the Ableton people will be looking at this thread, so perhaps we’ll get an explanation.

 

How does this compare to Sonar 4’s freeze function, which I consider to be one of the better host implementations? First of all, with Sonar, you can cut, move, copy, paste, etc. the frozen track, as well as bring the frozen track into a Track Folder. I assume this would be structurally impossible to do with Live, due to the dichotomy between the clip-oriented Session view and the track-oriented Arrangement view.

 

I also like that Sonar draws an audio waveform in the otherwise blank virtual instrument track. This not only confirms the track was frozen, but gives you an idea of levels and other characteristics of the frozen track. Furthermore, you can hide the MIDI track associated with a frozen instrument, which saves workspace clutter as you can’t do anything with the MIDI data anyway.

 

Another somewhat cool Sonar feature is Quick Unfreeze, which instead of discarding the bounced audio, retains it. So you can toggle quickly between a frozen track, and one that you can tweak, to see if you perhaps want to freeze the tweaked version instead.

 

The freeze function in Cubase SX 3.1 doesn’t let you manipulate tracks like Sonar, but does have a great feature: You can freeze just the instrument track and leave the mixer channel untouched (so any mixing, effects, or automation can still be edited), or freeze the instrument audio along with the mixer channel settings. You can do something similar in Sonar by assigning a frozen track to a bus, but that’s not as elegant as Cubase SX’s solution.

 

So basically, Live’s freeze function may not be as flexible as other hosts, but it does the job and more importantly, lets you launch and stop frozen clips – this is crucial to making freeze useable with Live. And of course, freeze completes the MIDI implementation that was introduced in Live 4; these days, if you’re going to use soft synths, freeze is invaluable for keeping CPU stress under control. Also, frozen tracks make it easier to exchange files if the person on the other hand doesn’t have the same instruments and plug-ins, although programs without a freeze option can do pretty much the same thing in a somewhat more clumsy fashion by premixing tracks.

 

Well, I’m stopping for now…more to come. Let me know if you have any questions or comments as the exploration of Live 5 continues.

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Hey, Craig. It seems more and more folks are using Live as their "auxiliary audio device" on big tours these days. At Winter NAMM, for example, Kelly Clarkson's MD was showing how he uses it onstage with her, and how flexible it is in terms of on-the-fly arrangement changes ("take it to the bridge," "repeat the chorus," etc). Might be cool to devote a couple of paragraphs to using Live as a "live band enhancement tool". How easy is to set up songs in Live so they can be instantly rearranged onstage, and how transparent (and reliable) is it when doing so? As you know, when it comes to high-profile gigs like that, one glitch could spell the end of a person's career.

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Greg! What a cool surprise, thanks for checking in bro! Excellent suggestion. In fact, I'm trying to "break" the audio engine right now.

 

>

 

There may not be clear ending, but I hear what you're saying. Much more to come. Thanks for the interest!

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I have been a frequent Live 4 user, and went through the same patterns of thought when the time came to upgrade to Live 5; it is worth the money?

I really do feel it is worth it, mostly due to all the new and lovely shortcuts that make composition and recording so much faster and easier. I know how excited I was with live 4, that you could use vst instruments and program music as fast as reason yet be able to record audio as well. There were just a few things that seemed quirky to me, that you couldn't right click a menu to bring up different options (especially changing the edit tool from draw to click) nor change the play marker without dragging it to the desired measure. Another small detail I like are the tiny buttons that reveal and hide the options such as crossfade, sends/returns, and others. All these aside, most of the value seems to me within the new plug-ins such as beat repeat and saturator, they make for easy yet complex arrangements (though I know more than a few people around me that use beat repeat as a major crutch). The test tone is another very valuable item I have used to seek out trouble areas in rooms. Overall the program now seems more organized and even easier to get quality results out of. I started using it with clients from day one of the upgrade and they have been extremely impressed, I have already more than paid for the upgrade.

I was also skeptical about the Reason 3.0 upgrade, but it proved a blessing in the studio as well. Second that about Tiger (OS 10.4). Has Microsoft ruined everyone's take on upgrades with their lackluster efforts? Not me except with them.

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I’m happy to report one thing that has not changed from Live 4 to Live 5 is the robustness of the audio engine. As far as I'm concerned, Live sets the standard for “unstoppable audio.” It seems you can do just about anything without the program hiccuping - even insert VST instruments.

 

In fact, while several loops were doing their thing, I called up several instruments that take a long time to load, like NI’s Kontakt 2 and Arturia's Moog Modular 2. The meters stopped moving, and the little hour glass appeared for quite a while as Kontakt 2 loaded its various instruments and elements, but the music never stopped. You can insert effects, tracks, shift things around in just about any way you like – Live 5 keeps on chugging along.

 

However, there is one thing of which you should be aware. One friend of mine who’s a newbie Live user was complaining about occasional crackling and popping on his laptop. He was running about 20 loops and a few fairly long one-shots. I assumed it was a latency, sound card, or driver problem, but working with those didn't seem to fix it, and his CPU meter was only showing something like 15% activity. So we went to the next level: Making sure “Background Services” was checked under Advanced Performance Options in Windows XP, and so on. Still no solution.

 

To make a long and excruciatingly boring story short, what happened was that he had loaded all his loops as hard disk tracks, and his poor little 5400 RPM hard drive just couldn’t keep up. I suggested he convert the short loops to RAM tracks (which you do in the Sample Display area), and that solved the problem. Click on the Attachment button to see a screen shot of how this is done. The shot also includes the relevant section of Live’s info regarding how to use clips in RAM mode.

 

We’ve come a long way since Steinberg based an ad campaign for its MIDI sequencer on “the music never stops.” Live really has the “don’t stop” audio engine thing down – as it very well better if you’re going to depend on it for live performance! Big kudos to Ableton for this one.

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So far, so good – so I figured it was time to see if Ableton fixed the one thing that really bugged me about using Live in live performance: The inability to record Solo button presses. This is important to me, because I often have a bunch of loops going, solo one for a couple of measures (by tying a track’s solo button to one of the buttons on my Peavey PC1600x controller), then have everything crash back in. This works fine in live performance because yes, you do hear the soloed track only. But if you're recording that performance, Live will ignore the solo button press. In other words, the solo button press will not exist in the Arrangement view.

 

I’ve been bugging the Ableton guys about this so much that they don’t return my phone calls, and if they see me walking down the street, they hurry over to the other side and pretend they don’t see me. Well not really :). Actually, they said that the way the program is structured, it’s just about impossible to go back and change this. The solo button was assumed to be there for diagnostic purposes only; if you’re in the studio using Live and you want to hear if there’s a glitch or something on a track, you probably don’t want that solo button press recorded. But on stage, I do! Yet it seems that nothing can be done about this.

 

I’m determined to find a workaround, but so far haven’t been successful. Basically, I think there are two options. One is to record the set’s audio in real time (using Minidisc or whatever) so I have an audio record of where the solo button was pressed, then go back into Live and edit the tracks in the Arrangement view to reflect this. The other option that just occurred to me is to program a preset in the PC1600x where hitting a solo button doesn’t tie to a track’s solo button, but instead sends out a string with multiple commands to mute all other tracks, as Mutes are recorded. I’m pretty sure the PC1600x can send out strings that are long enough, we’ll see.

 

Meanwhile, I’m going on a business trip Tuesday and Wednesday, so I won’t be able to work with my music computer… but I’ll be back in a few days. See you then!

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Originally posted by Anderton

I’m determined to find a workaround, but so far haven’t been successful. Basically, I think there are two options. One is to record the set’s audio in real time (using Minidisc or whatever) so I have an audio record of where the solo button was pressed, then go back into Live and edit the tracks in the Arrangement view to reflect this. The other option that just occurred to me is to program a preset in the PC1600x where hitting a solo button doesn’t tie to a track’s solo button, but instead sends out a string with multiple commands to mute all
other
tracks, as Mutes
are
recorded. I’m pretty sure the PC1600x can send out strings that are long enough, we’ll see.


 

 

I don't know if this is the right place to talk about that "workaround" but if you know which tracks you use to SOLO, well... just set those loops in their very own rows and assign a button to play those "scenes" alone.

 

It will be easier for the computer and controller to handle only one MIDI message than a bunch just for soloing a track.

 

BTW, excellent -as usually- report, sensei. I'm still trying to feel comfortable with Live 5's engine myself.

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I don't know if this is the right place to talk about that "workaround" but if you know which tracks you use to SOLO, well... just set those loops in their very own rows and assign a button to play those "scenes" alone.

 

 

That would work, but here's the problem: After you're done with the solo function, you then have to call up the scene you want to return to. It's a lot easier to just hit the same button twice -- once to solo, once to get you back to where you were.

 

I realize that a lot of users, perhaps the majority, won't consider this an issue. But one of the things that got me into Live in the first place was the ability to hit that record button and record an entire performance. It seems a shame that it can't handle recording the solo function.

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Originally posted by Anderton



That would work, but here's the problem: After you're done with the solo function, you then have to call up the scene you want to return to. It's a lot easier to just hit the same button twice -- once to solo, once to get you back to where you were.


I realize that a lot of users, perhaps the majority, won't consider this an issue. But one of the things that got me into Live in the first place was the ability to hit that record button and record an entire performance. It seems a shame that it can't handle recording the solo function.

 

 

Agreed!

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Originally posted by Anderton

This works fine in live performance because yes, you do hear the soloed track only. But if you're
recording
that performance, Live will ignore the solo button press. In other words, the solo button press will not exist in the Arrangement view.

If you add an Utility plug-in to your track, the Mute button could be assigned to one of the PC1600x Mute button!? That should get recorded.

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I have used Acid for years. How does it compare to LIVE and will I like Live more if I spend the $ for it and take time to actually learn the program?

 

Wow, that's an essay question to say the least. The programs are really quite different, each has its strengths and weaknesses, as well as very different workflow.

 

The Big Live Goodies: It fits live performance like a glove: It's crazy responsive, and you can tie parameters to controllers and the QWERTY keyboard with ease. The audio engine is unstoppable, and the included effects are excellent. The Arrangement page gives you most of what any good DAW gives you, and you can record your performance moves. Oh, and the "elastic audio" feature, where you can warp just about anything to a rhythmic framework, is a genius feature. The MIDI implementation is done in true Live fashion: Fast, intuitive, and inspiring.

 

The Big Acid Goodies: I still find Acid the absolute quickest way to put audio loops together and make music. The folder tracks introduced in v5 help a lot in overcoming Acid's one-loop-per-track paradigm, which has both advantages and disadvantages. The "acidization" process has been greatly enhanced over the years, with the ability to warp beats, and the fidelity took a big jump forward in v5...looping can be very close to seamless when done right.

 

Live Issues: I've mentioned the solo button thing, but hey, that's big to me but may not be big to you. Metering is primitive (but I LOVE the new feature where the whole turns red to alert you of distortion). The stretching algorithm is a mixed bag; it's effortless to use, but with sustained material, needs tweaking to sound natural, and sometimes you end up with a faint pulsing no matter what you do. I'll be getting into this more later. I don't want to give the impression there's a problem with the audio - any stretching-based program has material that works well, and material that doesn't. If you learn how to use Live, you can usually optimize the stretching so the audio sounds very good.

 

Acid Issues: Acid's stretching has the potential to be better than Live's, but some "acidized" sample CDs feature such bad acidization that Acid's full potential is often not realized, and you end up having to tweak anyway. And if you don't know how to tweak, it can be quite time-consuming. The MIDI implemenation is less elegant than Live and feels "tacked on," rather than integrated into the program. Also, you can't tie faders and such to hardware controllers - a major oversight, and something that Live handles superbly. And of course, Acid offers one style of working; it's an efficient style, but there's nothing like Live's outstanding session view.

 

Both programs have downloadable demos, so it's well worth playing with them both and seeing which suits your style of working better.

 

I know I'm forgetting some things, but it's late at night, I only got five hours sleep, and I'm in a questionable hotel :) so I'm not operating at peak functionality just now...more to come...

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I took part in the beta testing of Live 5. While I enjoyed some of the new features i wasn't impressed enough to update. I feel the same as the fellow who you mentioned in your opening thread. I figure I can get 6 or 7 for the price of one upgrade. They just don't make it a good deal to upgrade to the latest version.

 

It ought to work like this:

From 1-5 $200

From 2-5 $150

from 3-5 $100

from 4-5 $50.

 

Makes a lot more sense and reduces the hit on loyal customers to remain up to date.

The argument that I've had Live the whole time is kind of a odd thing to say, and really just voids the notion that as of "now" one person has $1000 invested with ableton while another has $500.

 

A lot of folks on the ableton forum are expressing some dismay at what I also found to be an accelerated finalization of the product with many bugs left in along with unnerving performance & crash issues on live sets that worked fine with version 4.

 

Things missing from Live 5

 

Included multi voice high quality samplers (Reason includes several sound modules and handles loops (not the same obviously) and effects. Operator and a Multi-voice/velocity layered synth need to be included.

 

MP3/MP4 functionality that doesn't simply convert mp3's to wav files within a cache folder. But rather steams the mp3 file in real time (using an analysis file).

 

A drum sampler with more than 5 voices and assignable midi channels.

 

Multiband Compression

Mastering FX

 

A notation editor would also be nice along with the ability to have multiple windows open on one screen.

 

Live is a great program, but I'll be sticking with version 4 until they add a few more perks to the overly expensive upgrade scheme. As it stands I feel I have 95% of what ableton has to offer with Version 4.

 

 

Sorry to jump the gun on your Craig, but cut to the chase. I have your book form way back with the quadrafuzz project (and others in it), so I have great respect for you, though this is seeming like a catalog "review". Bust some balls and get them going in the direction we want, not what marketing shmoos decree!

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If you've been using Live for the past four years and you've done all the upgrades, then it's basically cost what, $200-$250 per year? That's really not an unreasonable price to pay for software that has undergone major improvements, like the elastic audio and MIDI recording/editing.

 

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I have not encountered that yet, but I downloaded v5.0.1 immediately and never actually used v5.0.0. And I'm still finding out things about the program, so stay tuned. If it crashes I'll let you know.

 

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I don't think Live is intended to be an all-in-one studio like Reason (which of course, doesn't record digital audio, doesn't have an audio-related arrangement page, and doesn't have anything like the session view...yet prices are comparable). I think they are programs that went into different directions, Reason into synths, and Live into audio. If you want elements of both, then pay more and get Sonar, Cubase, Logic, etc.

 

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But wouldn't it slow down the audio engine to have to do all that real time conversion and streaming in a different format? And what difference does it make to the operational usefulness? Maybe I'm not "getting" what you're saying here.

 

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But the point of a plug-in architecture is to let YOU decide what plug-ins you want to use. Yes, Reason added mastering effects, but they HAD to because you can't plug in your own. Someone from Ableton may correct me on this, but I think adding pro-level effects and instruments would add a lot to the cost. I'd rather pay less, and use effects that I like and am familiar with. Or what if someone has invested in WAVES plug-ins? Why buy more with Live that you may not use? However, I do appreciate that many of Live's effects are different from the average. I'd rather see Ableton spend their time developing new, weird plugs than produce yet ANOTHER multiband compressor.

 

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Notation?!? It sounds to me that what you really want is a traditional DAW...to me, Live takes a different approach to creating music, it's not just another DAW. As I recall it was the first program with that sort of "unified" interface. I don't want to open other windows...I want something simple, fast, and inspiring for live performances that I can also use in the studio. I think that's the core of what Live is about, not being a DAW.

 

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Then don't upgrade! I can't definitively agree or disagree until I've worked with the program more.

 

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Your opinions are both welcome and encouraged, but I can't "cut to the chase" because I do not feel I am an expert in the program yet. I am documenting what I find as I work with Live, that's the whole point of this format...not just to sit on it for weeks and then make some grand pronouncement at the end, but to share some of the process or discovering what something does and does not do, and encourage others to comment, ask questions, give their own opinions, etc.

 

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Uh...does the Live catalog really compare Live and Acid? Talk about the solo button limitation? Explain why it's necessary to use a mix of hard disk and RAM loops? Explain what happens when you load the instruments that take the longest to load to see if the audio engine would hiccup? I don't think so...

 

But the more important point is that the direction YOU want Live to go in is most definitely NOT the direction I want it to go in. When I first started using Live, I was seduced by its fun factor and ergonomics. Every time they've announced an update, I've gotten nervous that they'll "break" what made it cool by making it too complex. When they said they were adding MIDI, I was afraid Live would become a victim of "creeping featuritis." Yet I think they implemented MIDI in an elegant way that fits the "spirit of Live."

 

Point is, if I want a balls-to-the-wall DAW, I have Sonar. If I want a studio-in-a-box, Reason rocks. But if I want to do a live performance, I wouldn't use either of those (and I've tried to use them in the past): Live does it for me. I don't want notation, I don't want what they think is a cool complement of instruments that adds hundreds of dollars to the price, I don't want to see the workflow trashed.

 

What I want to see is whether Live 5 has helped make Live into being the best "Live" it can be, not whether it's made Live more like other programs. Make sense?

 

And that's why I like this format...you get to ask questions that allow me to explain more fully the particular biases I have that shape the way I approach a product. And this also proves my point that having a single "reviewer" simply can't provide all the viewpoints that would allow readers to make a truly informed decision about whether something is "right" for them or not.

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Sorry to keep you up late :)

 

I guess for me I see the potential for live to do a lot more than trigger loops for dj's - which is the "live" direction of Live. Which sadly reason has also adopted. I'm sure you'll want to point out users like yourself who do different live things with Live, however I'm talking about the majority - as exemplified by the Ableton user forums. Seems to be dj's and studio guys mostly.

 

I use it more like a DAW, exactly.

 

Ever spend an afternoon programing an old jazz standard in via the piano roll, wishing a simple notation window (done the simple, elegant Live way), could make it a lot smoother?

 

There is a wealth of information out there a "staff" away, be it drums or melodic content.

 

I'm on a budget and can't afford to buy content, upgrades and gear on a regular basis. Compare the Apple/Logic upgrade scheme, around $100 for a thousand dollar program. Or Reason, Major upgrades for $150, along with periodic Major enhancements - and giveaways. Yeah, I expect more for my money.

 

There's no reason not to ad functionality, be it included or Add-on pacs. Add on a better sampler, a notation editor, a tab editor, a drum sampler.

Let the end user configure for their needs.

 

If they've painted themselves into a corner with limited code - nows to time to rebuild for the future - we don't want another PT fiasco do we?

 

My main set up has live rewired along with reason into PT for complete functionality. But lately, I've been using Live alone a lot more, along with reason for instruments. Don't limit the program or suggest that it should be limited due to your own way of using it.

 

Live is being compared to Logic in some circles (perhaps not your publishers) as the next big DAW.

 

That's what the community wants, a Great DAW, not a DJ toolset. My Opinion, and I'm sticking to it! ;)

 

One other thing lacking in Live which carried over into Live 5 - exported midi clips appear in the browser as separate folders you have to manually open to access. UGh!

 

And where is the Live branded Loop utility program? Someone get those folks a Proper Budget!

 

I make suggestions, they get panned. years later they are "features", the checks never come in the mail. I jest. :D

 

 

I'll add that I understand the love for Live's simplicity, but lots of other things could be hidden below the surface for power users without hurting that cornerstone or turning off the users that rely on that aspect of the app. An application like photoshop comes to mind.

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Okay, I see where you're coming from. But why not just use a DAW?

 

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If you just want it to see what's happening, fine. I suspect that doing a print-quality notation program is waaaay beyond where Live wants to go.

 

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Yeah, props to Propellerheads. They really do deliver value to their customers.

 

 

Let the end user configure for their needs.>>

 

Exactly. Buy plug-in instruments, don't ask Ableton to re-invent the wheel and charge more for the process. BTW the Yamaha OPT thing makes the concept of MIDI plug-in functionality possible, but it's use in Acid hasn't really set the world on fire...I don't know how easy it would be to make "MIDI function plug-ins" for Live that integrate into the code. Maybe someone from Ableton could comment.

 

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Well, I'm not suggesting it be "limited." As I said, I'm just concerned about "creeping featuritis" destroying what makes Live so cool. It's like the Thunderbird was a cool little sports car, then they decided to make it into a four-seater, and it lost that whole Thunderbird thing. It HAS been embraced primarily by DJs and grovoe musicians, and I think it makes the most sense to add features that cater to that crowd -- their base of support -- rather than trying to compete with Logic, Cubase, etc. I see Live turning into a DAW as being redundant.

 

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If you want a great DAW, there are LOTS of great DAWs! And if you're concerned about bucks, what's wrong with Logic Express? Does a ton of stuff for, I believe, less than the cost of the Live upgrade.

 

>

 

What do you mean "loop utility program"? To do what, exactly?

 

>

 

I think that's what they've done in many ways, particularly with MIDI. I understand you want Live to turn into more of a DAW, but I really hope Ableton resists that temptation and continues to work on making it the ultimate DJ/groove/warping program. Just my opinion, of course, but I suspect most Live users would agree.

 

So...what do you think, Live users? Do you wish it had more DAW-like features?

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Okay, I see where you're coming from. But why not just use a DAW???

>

If you just want it to see what's happening, fine. I suspect that doing a print-quality notation program is waaaay beyond where Live wants to go.

 

Exactly. Buy plug-in instruments, don't ask Ableton to re-invent the wheel and charge more for the process. BTW the Yamaha OPT thing makes the concept of MIDI plug-in functionality possible, but it's use in Acid hasn't really set the world on fire...I don't know how easy it would be to make "MIDI function plug-ins" for Live that integrate into the code. Maybe someone from Ableton could comment.

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Well, I'm not suggesting it be "limited." As I said, I'm just concerned about "creeping featuritis" destroying what makes Live so cool. It's like the Thunderbird was a cool little sports car, then they decided to make it into a four-seater, and it lost that whole Thunderbird thing. It HAS been embraced primarily by DJs and grovoe musicians, and I think it makes the most sense to add features that cater to that crowd -- their base of support -- rather than trying to compete with Logic, Cubase, etc. I see Live turning into a DAW as being redundant.

>

If you want a great DAW, there are LOTS of great DAWs! And if you're concerned about bucks, what's wrong with Logic Express? Does a ton of stuff for, I believe, less than the cost of the Live upgrade.

>??What do you mean "loop utility program"? To do what, exactly?

>

I think that's what they've done in many ways, particularly with MIDI. I understand you want Live to turn into more of a DAW, but I really hope Ableton resists that temptation and continues to work on making it the ultimate DJ/groove/warping program. Just my opinion, of course, but I suspect most Live users would agree.

>>

So...what do you think, Live users? Do you wish it had more DAW-like features?

 

Let me add one other little argument for more DAW features... Some music. Before you groan, give a listen, All tracks made with Live. Nothing for sale, but a different way to work with live.

 

Romeo Money, From Garage Band

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Originally posted by Anderton

If you've been using Live for the past four years and you've done all the upgrades, then it's basically cost what, $200-$250 per year? That's really not an unreasonable price to pay for software that has undergone major improvements, like the elastic audio and MIDI recording/editing.

 

$200-250 a year is not bad if that is your main instrument. I'm hit with upgrades for Sonar, Project5, Live, Acid, Reason, etc... At that point I have to pick and choose. Other than playing live, Ableton Live is nice for quickly hashing out songs. But I quickly hit a wall and have to move to a real DAW for true linear editing. Acid gives me the the control over individual loops that I want by allowing me to cut and rearrange them in ways that I cannot do with Live. On the down side for ACid the one loop per track format drives me crazy. Sonar allows me to stick various loops in a single track, which I love, but it is not as easy to minuplate those loops. And for me, Reason will continue to loose value until they develop a polyphonic pattern sequencer. Because of that I use Orion Pro much more than Reason. And buy the way, Orion Pro is another program that released an update this year. Luckily the upgrade from 4 to 5 is free. :D

 

So until I find that one perfect app, which will probably never exist, I will continue to use multiple programs. And if the music I made last year did not suddenly turn bad because some of my tools released an upgrade, I guess I can use those same tools one more year.

 

Robert

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