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  • #31
    In the Pro Review thread on the Konnekt 24D, I was asked about latency of the drivers, and the lowest latency you could get without clicks and pops. To "even the playing field," I opened up new projects with no other tracks or plug-ins, and adjusted the samples in the Konnekt 24D applet. The following are the lowest latencies I could achieve with reliable results:

    Cubase 4: 128 samples
    Ableton Live 5.0.3: 128 samples
    Acid Pro 6.0: 128 samples
    Tracktion: 64 samples
    Guitar Rig 2 (stand-alone mode): 128 samples
    Sonar (ASIO): 256 samples
    Sonar (WDM): 256 samples


    At 128 samples, Sonar was close to acceptable, with just occasional clicks and pops, but was still unuseable. For all programs it was the same computer, same interface, etc. Are there any "magic bullet" check boxes or parameters I should try using with Sonar to bring its latency down to the other programs?

    I must say I was impressed by Tracktion's ability to operate reliably at 64 samples, but I'd settle for being able to get 128 samples with Sonar!
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    • #32
      I'm copying a post from the Sonar forum from Cakewalk's John McCarty. I was having problems with some devices showing up as MIDI instruments, even when I specified "Configure as Synth" under plug-in properties. Turns out this is a known bug; here's a workaround until the fix appears:

      1. Open the "Cakewalk VST" registry key in a registry editor:
      {HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Cakewalk Music Software\Cakewalk VST\}

      2. Find and select the affected plug-in's file name under the "Inventory" key

      3. Select the "isSynth" value and set it to '1'

      4. Restart SONAR and this plug-in will show up as a VSTi
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      • #33
        Craig, thanks! That's really laying it out well and it's helping me follow along with AudioSnap. A couple "What the?!?!" questions have been answered.

        Excellent work!
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        • #34
          First of all, Keith's trick about going to the end of the clip and setting the desired measure and beat for the now time works perfectly. It's a nice time-saver, to say the least, when you have a loop and aren't sure what its tempo is.

          He also mentioned something I've alluded to, which is being able to quantize to grooves. Although there's a quantize to groove tool if you want to quantize to a specific groove, the Quantize to Pool feature is the main tool for quantizing one part to another.

          The "pool" is a collection of transient markers from one or more clips that basically determine a "master quantization grid" for a project. Clips can then be quantized to this pool of transient markers.

          For example, suppose you have a drum loop that was played by an actual human with a great feel, and you play a rhythm guitar part along with it. You can AudioSnap-enable the drum part, adjust the Sensitivity and Threshold controls to create transients on the hits (as well as disable hits you don't want to be part of the pool), then click on "Add Transients to Pool." Click on the attachment to follow along with what we'll be covering.

          The upper track is the drum loop with transients added. These have all been added to the pool; look along the bottom of the screen shot, and you'll see these transients extend below the next track down and form dotted lines on the clips view background.

          The lower track is a rhythm guitar part that has also been AudioSnap-enabled and has transients at the beginning of each chord. Again, looking along the bottom, you can see that some of these transients match up perfectly with the pool (hey, my timing's not that[/] bad!), but others do not. What we'll do next is quantize the rhythm guitar part to the drums.
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          • #35
            Now the stage is set, as it were, and quantizing to the pool is simple. I clicked on the rhythm guitar part to select it, selected "Quantize to Pool" as the task, then clicked on the "Quantize to Pool" button. Done! Click on the attachment to see the final result.

            Note how the rhythm guitar attacks now line up perfectly with the pool, and therefore, with the drum part. On playback, the rhythm guitar part didn't sound that great due to the stretching, so I selected the iZotope Radius Mix algorithm and rendered the rhythm guitar part by Bouncing to Clip. The offline rendering did its job, and the guitar sounded just fine.

            Incidentally, as you might expect, you don't have to quantize right to the pool; there are quantize strength sliders, and you can also set a "distance from pool" parameter that causes notes further than a certain distance from a pool not to be quantized (there's also a slider for "fine-tuning" this window). It's really quite cool.

            Again, though, let me emphasize that the more complex the part you're quantizing, the more likely you'll need to do some manual labor. For example, AudioShap added some transients in the middle of sustained chords; lowering the sensitivity got rid of too many desired transients, so I went in and disabled the unneeded transients by hand so they wouldn't be shifted to a pool transient.
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            • #36
              And I should at least provide an audio example, right? Attached is and audio example of the post-quantize to pool guitar part; note how it lines up perfectly with the drums.

              Before we get off this topic, remember that the pool of transients can come from any clips, and in any quantity. For example, the pool could consist of transients that hit only at the beginning of each measure, and you could quantize the bass track so that only notes within 1/16th note of the beginning of each measure are quantized -- making sure the measure start attacks hit right on the beat, but everything plays as it did originally.

              Now it may seem like a lot of work to do this kind of processing, but as always, just because you can doesn't mean you must. Yes, you can use AudioSnap to quantize everything to everything, but I think its real value is as a problem-solver.

              For example, I have a bunch of loops from Dr. Walker's "Cologne Cyclez" sample CD that really kick butt, but most of them use swing. I found a bass line loop that would have worked perfectly with it, except it didn't have swing...but with Quantize to Pool, it did!
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Anderton
                At 128 samples, Sonar was close to acceptable, with just occasional clicks and pops, but was still unuseable. For all programs it was the same computer, same interface, etc. Are there any "magic bullet" check boxes or parameters I should try using with Sonar to bring its latency down to the other programs?


                I assume it was the same sample rate so same latency.
                44,100 2.9 ms
                48,000 2.6 ms
                96,000 1.3 ms

                However, was the bit depth set similarly? In the Global Options, Audio Data tab, try different settings for the file bit depth. If the test file you're using is 16-bit, matching the Import and Render depths may help.

                Another setting to check is the I/O Buffer size. You'll find it on the Audio options dialog, Advanced page. For some systems, better performance can be gained with a lower value, others need a higher value.

                Keith

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                • #38
                  Well, well, well...I tested Sonar 6 with the Creamware SCOPE interface and got reliable operation over ASIO at 3 milliseconds, and with the E-Mu 1820m at 4 milliseconds, also with ASIO. This was a somewhat more complex testing environment that the other tests, as it had a few drum tracks and an AmpliTube2 plug-in.

                  Therefore, it seems that issue is related to the driver in the Konnekt 24D. I'll follow up on this in the Konnekt 24D Pro Review thread so as not to hijack this one.
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                  • #39
                    Hi all
                    Great info here! I wonder if I can create the pool from a midi track.
                    Thanks
                    Andres
                    Andres

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                    • #40
                      No, you can't, you must render to audio first. This is the one area in which Beat Detective is up on Audio Snap, but rendering is really easy, so...
                      Expressed as a continued fraction,
                      It's one, one, one... until distraction;
                      In short, the simplest of such kind
                      Paul S. Brackman on the continued fraction equal to the Golden Ratio

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                      • #41
                        AudioSnap also has a REX-like function in that it can slice a clip into individual beats (by beats, I don't mean quarter-notes necessarily, but individual slices of sound), then quantize the start of each beat (each of which is now its own clip) to the grid or the pool. The advantage to doing things this way is that no stretching is required to do quantization. The disadvantage is that you need to have beats with fairly clean breaks in between; also, after quantization, a beat might move forward a bit and if the next beat doesn't move, there may be a gap between the two. Whether or not this matters, of course, depends on the particular material.

                        This basically works like the other AudioSnap functions we described: You set up the transient markers so that each beat begins with a marker. You don't want any markers in between beats. Then, you click on the "Split Beats into Clips" button (the one that looks like a pair of scissors). This splits the clip at each transient marker; click on the attachment to see the clip after it's been split.
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                        • #42
                          Now you can quantize the beats. Remember, each one is essentially a clip, so what we want to do is quantize the start of each clip to our desired quantization grid.

                          Click on the attachment to see how this is done. The crucial part is that under "Change," you must select "Audio Clip Start Times" and not select anything else to change. Also, note the "AutoXFade" parameter. If a clip moves forward into the end of another clip, you can have them crossfade automatically over a certain period of time. The screen shot shows 20ms, but for the clip shown here, I changed it to 5ms as the clip was a relatively percussive guitar part with chords stabs.
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                          • #43
                            We're almost there. Click on the attachment to see the final result. You can see the start of each clip is now perfectly aligned with the beat, but also notice the small gaps and crossfades.

                            At this point I cleaned this up a bit by eliminating the "silent" spaces (they actually had some noise) and doing a quick fadeout each beat. As I wanted to convert this into a single clip, I selected all the clips and did a "Bounce to Clip." I then slip-edited the end so the end landed exactly on the beat, and bounced again. Perfect! I had my loop.
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                            • #44
                              I spent quite a bit of time last night after posting this creating some guitar loops, and came to the conclusion that the "Split beats at clips" functions is the most squirrely of all the AudioSnap functions. One problem was that splits would sometimes occur even at transient markers I'd disabled. Another was that sometimes the reverse would occur: Splitting at clips would split in one or two places, but not at markers that had been promoted.

                              There may be some pilot error involved, but I'll be working with this function some more so if it's a problem at my end, I should figure it out...if not, I'll file a bug report. Bottom line was that for the most reliable results, it was usually best to right-click on each marker where I wanted a split, and select "Split Beat."
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Anderton
                                I spent quite a bit of time last night after posting this creating some guitar loops, and came to the conclusion that the "Split beats at clips" functions is the most squirrely of all the AudioSnap functions. One problem was that splits would sometimes occur even at transient markers I'd disabled. Another was that sometimes the reverse would occur: Splitting at clips would split in one or two places, but not at markers that had been promoted.

                                There may be some pilot error involved, but I'll be working with this function some more so if it's a problem at my end, I should figure it out...if not, I'll file a bug report. Bottom line was that for the most reliable results, it was usually best to right-click on each marker where I wanted a split, and select "Split Beat."


                                I had similar experiences with "split beats at clips". Sometimes it refused to split at all the beats, just picking a few that it liked. I tried to get a Cakewalk employee to show me what I was doing wrong at the AES show, but everything worked flawlessly there when I tried it on their system (of course). The funny thing is that it's working fine on MY system now and I don't know what's changed. Anyone else having issues?

                                Regards,

                                John
                                Send lawyers, guns and money...

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