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  • #31
    AmPlayer-

    Well, you have exactly the same hardware as I'm using (except E6700) on my mid-tower (which also crashes, but much less than the laptop), other than the interface. On my Laptop, I turned off all overampling in AT2, which improved the problem, but it eventually crashed (5 minutes vs 1 minute). I also shut off everything in MsConfig, but that didn't help at all..... Latency settings have had no discernable effect on the issue, nor did turning off unused inputs in Ableton.

    BTW, I have contacted IK and they are working on it. In the standalone version, I only get the 4 mono outputs, no 1-2,3-4 stereo. However, I can get around this for performance by running two concurrent instances of Amplitube 2 (gives me the 4 channels separated into two outputs). So far, the configuration of 2xAT2, 1xLive6 seems to be working fine, so I have plenty of processor power for the AT2 configurations (1 amp, no effects).
    Awkward, but at least usable for live performance......

    BTW, in Live 6 turning on GR2 increases cpu from 6% to 12% (1 amp, no effects), but AT2 goes to 24% (1 amp, no effects)...

    FWIW, I have confiured the Laptop for always high cpu usage (i.e., turned off speed step), and set everything I could find for max performance on AC (which is how I use it at gigs)...

    Here's another indicator....

    I find that the Stand-alone version of AT2 runs fine concurrently (but separately) from Live 6. My Audio Kontrol has 4 outputs, which can be configured as separate mono outputs, or as two stereo outputs.

    However, the configuration menu (for Audio Kontrol 1) in a single instance AT2 only gives me access to 2separate outputs in the audio setup panel.

    If I run two instances of AT2 (concurrently with Live 6), I find that if I set on instance of AT2 output to channel 1 qnd 2, and the second to channel 3 and 4, I get outputs on all 4 of my Audio Kontrol jacks (presumably ganged ini Stereo).

    Ableton Live gives me the choice of 4 mono outputs, as well as two ganged stereo outputs (which is what I would expect from the Audio Kontrol Hardware configuration).

    Nevertheless, this configuration is inconsistent, and may be the source problem, since the audio setup panels are different for each.



    As an aside, I also run Amplitube 2 on my Mac as well. Usually, I do this as a plug-in running in MOTU Digital Performer 5.11. In this scenario, there is 2 plugins available, one that is just mono, and another that is mono to stereo (i.e., it receives a mono input and converts its output to stereo).
    Running the mono to stereo version of AT2 crashes DP. IK tech support has confirmed this is an issue with AT2 in DP. So, until IK fixes it, I can't use any stereo capabilities of AT2 in DP.
    The reason I mention this is because I wanted to know if you've contacted IK about your issue in Live on a PC. If so, how did they respond?
    "Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
    http://www.flamencochuck.com

    Comment


    • #32
      Hmm. I almost bought the E6700, but the Asus P5B is a great overclocker, so I opted for the E6600. I am currently running the E6600 at 3.3 GHz with no overheating issues. I think the CPU could go much faster than that even, but my other components start kicking the bucket at speeds much higher than that.
      If you have a good motherboard that allows changing frequencies, you might consider overclocking. It isn't for the faint of heart though.
      Nevertheless, for running Live with multiple instances of AT2, overclocking could definitely help if your system can handle it.

      WRT no stereo outputs available in AT2, that sounds like a limitation of the hardware. Have you contacted NI about that?
      Is it possible a single version of AT2 can be used in a dual mono output scenario? I don't know if it's possible, but if so, that would certainly make your system behave better.
      I think the 2 instances means you can't use any of the stereo features of AT2. Do you pan one instance Left and the other Right and create your own stereo space? Still, that means the AT2 built in stereo capabilities are of no use (like my own case with DP on the Mac), yes?

      AmPlayer-

      Well, you have exactly the same hardware as I'm using (except E6700) on my mid-tower (which also crashes, but much less than the laptop), other than the interface. On my Laptop, I turned off all overampling in AT2, which improved the problem, but it eventually crashed (5 minutes vs 1 minute). I also shut off everything in MsConfig, but that didn't help at all..... Latency settings have had no discernable effect on the issue, nor did turning off unused inputs in Ableton.

      BTW, I have contacted IK and they are working on it. In the standalone version, I only get the 4 mono outputs, no 1-2,3-4 stereo. However, I can get around this for performance by running two concurrent instances of Amplitube 2 (gives me the 4 channels separated into two outputs). So far, the configuration of 2xAT2, 1xLive6 seems to be working fine, so I have plenty of processor power for the AT2 configurations (1 amp, no effects).
      Awkward, but at least usable for live performance......

      BTW, in Live 6 turning on GR2 increases cpu from 6% to 12% (1 amp, no effects), but AT2 goes to 24% (1 amp, no effects)...

      FWIW, I have confiured the Laptop for always high cpu usage (i.e., turned off speed step), and set everything I could find for max performance on AC (which is how I use it at gigs)...

      Here's another indicator....

      I find that the Stand-alone version of AT2 runs fine concurrently (but separately) from Live 6. My Audio Kontrol has 4 outputs, which can be configured as separate mono outputs, or as two stereo outputs.

      However, the configuration menu (for Audio Kontrol 1) in a single instance AT2 only gives me access to 2separate outputs in the audio setup panel.

      If I run two instances of AT2 (concurrently with Live 6), I find that if I set on instance of AT2 output to channel 1 qnd 2, and the second to channel 3 and 4, I get outputs on all 4 of my Audio Kontrol jacks (presumably ganged ini Stereo).

      Ableton Live gives me the choice of 4 mono outputs, as well as two ganged stereo outputs (which is what I would expect from the Audio Kontrol Hardware configuration).

      Nevertheless, this configuration is inconsistent, and may be the source problem, since the audio setup panels are different for each.

      Comment


      • #33
        I'm now doubting it is the configuration; GR2 acts the same way (I just tested it), and runs perfectly. Also, I tried single channel in/output (simplest possible configuration) in Live using AT2 and it crashed as usual.

        In order to access the 4 outputs of the AK1, I using two send tracks, assigning them to ext. outs 1/2 and 3/4 respectively (two stereo outputs, center panned which gives me the same signal at all four output jacks). Again, this works just fine for GR2 at about 6% cpu)

        And again, AT2 works fine unless I start looping Live (that is, the VST
        doesn't crash until I turn on the looping).

        FWIW, I've been toying with the idea of overclocking, but I don't really need it for the stuff I'm doing so crawl along at 2.53 Ghz. My mb is also a P5B deluxe, of course. (I'm just using a single amp model with no cabs or effects until I can get it to stop crashing..) Of course, the laptop mb doesn't lend itself to overclocking anyway, although duo core 2 gHz should handle a single Live/AT2 instance.... And it is primarily the laptop I'm working on, since its crash is so consistent.

        I still don't have the full AT2/AK1 issues sorted out, and of course I am in contact with Ableton, NI, and IK on this issue. But because GR2 is rock solid for every configuration I've tried, I can't help thinking that it is an IK AT2 issue....

        But I'm beginning to get in way above my skill set................:-)

        Hmm. I almost bought the E6700, but the Asus P5B is a great overclocker, so I opted for the E6600. I am currently running the E6600 at 3.3 GHz with no overheating issues. I think the CPU could go much faster than that even, but my other components start kicking the bucket at speeds much higher than that.
        If you have a good motherboard that allows changing frequencies, you might consider overclocking. It isn't for the faint of heart though.
        Nevertheless, for running Live with multiple instances of AT2, overclocking could definitely help if your system can handle it.

        WRT no stereo outputs available in AT2, that sounds like a limitation of the hardware. Have you contacted NI about that?
        Is it possible a single version of AT2 can be used in a dual mono output scenario? I don't know if it's possible, but if so, that would certainly make your system behave better.
        I think the 2 instances means you can't use any of the stereo features of AT2. Do you pan one instance Left and the other Right and create your own stereo space? Still, that means the AT2 built in stereo capabilities are of no use (like my own case with DP on the Mac), yes?
        "Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
        http://www.flamencochuck.com

        Comment


        • #34
          Come to think of it...you do public betas, correct? Does that ever influence features and such, or is it purely an exercise in squashing bugs of a pretty much frozen program? Just curious...

          In theory, the Alpha and Beta tests should be for bug squashing, but the DJ community did manage to get crossfader curve controls added to Live 6 in the 11th hour. We snuck it in as a secret in Beta version 9 - it took about 4 hours until someone found it.

          There were some really vicious threads about the lack of that feature when the beta initially came out, so the development team decided to undertake the very unusual task of adding a new feature during the beta phase. I talked with the developer who implemented the feature - he basically looked at some documentation on curve controls, opened up a leading DJ mixer with a voltmeter to get some readings, then translated them into mathematical equations that Live could interpret.

          This is the exception to the rule, though. In the grand scheme of Live's software development, adding curve controls was simple, and could be implemented without 'breaking' anything in the interface. Most wishes are not as easy to fulfill .
          David Cross
          Public Media Coordinator
          Ableton Inc.

          cross@ableton.com

          Comment


          • #35
            Most wishes are not as easy to fulfill .


            I realize we users always want our cake and eat it too.

            However, as I posted earlier, I am concerned about the frame rate selections for video. In Live, it appears to be 24 or 30 only. Can that be correct?
            In the US, all video is at 29.97, not 30. Does Ableton mean 29.97, or is it really 30?

            Comment


            • #36
              As Live has evolved, it gets used for more and more different types of applications. Early on, you couldn’t add instruments, there were no MIDI effects, and processing was relatively primitive. But now, some people use Live as live performance signal processor and don’t even take advantage of the improvised looping options of Session View or the extensive editing of Arrangement view. For them, Live is more like the ultimate JamMan than, say, Pro Tools.

              Conversely, with the addition of MIDI and instruments, some users got away from using digital audio for live performance, preferring instead the flexibility of MIDI recording/playback/processing. As these types of users exploited the capabilities of instruments, it became necessary to make the use of audio effects, MIDI effects, instruments, and combinations thereof more manageable. For example, if you had some favorite combination of MIDI effects, an instrument, and audio processing for that instrument, with early versions you had to load up all those modules individually each time you created a new project.

              Racks are designed to streamline the process of loading specific sets of devices, as well as open up the option for parallel processing – something most DAWs won’t do easily (with the exception of Mackie’s Tracktion, whose “rack” concept was always ahead of the pack – credit where credit is due).

              Another aspect of Live’s racks is the element of control. This resembles the Synth Rack option in Sonar or Reason’s Combinator, as you can link specific parameters to controls on a sort of “virtual control surface.” With Live, each rack can have eight macros where you bring out strategic controls for easy manipulation; what’s a bigger deal, though, is that a control can affect multiple parameters. For example, you could have a “MegaDelay” control that increased delay feedback and amount simultaneously, while adding more upper midrange to the sound so it cuts more.

              The picture shows macro mapping in action. The rack has been put into Map Mode, where mappable controls have a greenish overlay; all you need to do is click on the control you want to map, then click on the “map” button associated with a macro control.

              Above the macros, there’s a list of which parameters are associated with which macros; Macro 1 affects two parameters. Also note that you can set a minimum and maximum value for each macro. This is great with hardware controllers, as you can use the full throw of a fader or rotary control to cover a limited range of a parameter (this way, you don’t go into uncontrolled resonance or delay feedback territory if you don’t want to).
              N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

              Subscribe, like, and share the links!

              Comment


              • #37
                The whole rack thing is actually extremely deep. It not only covers what’s mentioned above, but can also be used to create splits and layers for keyboard instruments. In this respect, Live can now be a “command center” for soft synths that has nothing to do with sequencing or looping, and is instead all about MIDI control and routing. I think some could even argue persuasively that Live is a useful adjunct to any MIDI master controller.

                There are a couple different ways to create a rack. The easiest option is to go to the browser for Live devices, as shown in the first picture; you’ll find an Instrument rack, MIDI rack, and Audio rack as the first listing under each of their respective categories. Just drag a rack into the Track view, and the rack is ready to populate.

                The second picture shows a rack in the process of construction. From left to right, there’s the Macro controls section, followed by the Chain list. This shows all of the parallel chains in the rack; in this case, there’s only one chain. Note the buttons for Key and Velocity – these access the MIDI filtering options that allow only certain keyranges or velocity values to “make it through” the rack to the output. Continuing to the right, there’s a MIDI processor (the Scale effect) and then Simpler, loaded with a plucked guitar waveform. Out of view to the right is an audio delay effect that follows Simpler.
                N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                • #38
                  The Key and Velocity mapping relate to traditional keyboard zones. There are also Chain selections you can do, but let’s keep things simple for now and deal with only one chain. Note that you can select which zone to show, or none if you want to save screen space.

                  The picture shows a key zone, where you can restrict notes based on pitch. This works like most samplers, in that the zone has handles you can drag to set the upper and lower limits. But also note above the zone, there’s a smaller strip. This can be dragged to create key and velocity fades…nice.

                  An obvious use for key zones would be to load up two chains, one with a bass instrument and one with a a melody instrument, then set up zones for each chain so the lower notes go the bass and the upper notes to the melody instrument.

                  A less obvious use is that zones make a great live performance option! You can create a MIDI sequence that covers a wide pitch range, then alter the high and low limits to “thin out” the sequence. When applied to drums, the kick drum is often a lower note; if you change the key zone so the lower limit sits above that note, you have the ultimate DJ “kill” switch for the kick – no EQ required.

                  Ah, but there’s a catch: You cannot automate, nor record, these changes; it’s for live performance only.
                  N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                  Subscribe, like, and share the links!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    3) Have you used it much as a rewire slave? I'm thinking of using Live as a rewire slave, but I'm concerned that it may not follow meter changes. I'm hoping Live is like Reason in this aspect: That is, even though its own sequencer can't understand meter changes, it will still correctly follow a host application that implements meter changes. This should be easy for me to test as well, but I just haven't gotten that far with Live yet.


                    Response from Support:
                    Live has difficulties to follow time signature changes at it is not
                    supported, but the feature is at the top of our head and at the top of
                    the feature wishlist.


                    Edit: I discoverd by RTFM that Live can only receive MIDI and output Audio when it is a rewire slave. In general, the Live manual is very thin regarding rewire mode, so I'm not 100% sure of this. However, it appears my dream of being able to send audio to Live from my host app and then process it in Live and send back to the host app is apparently not possible. If somebody from Ableton would like to comment on this, I'd really appreciate it.

                    I'm not 100% sure, but I believe these limitations may have more to do with the Rewire specification than with Live. Have you tried it out for yourself?
                    David Cross
                    Public Media Coordinator
                    Ableton Inc.

                    cross@ableton.com

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Ah, but there’s a catch: You cannot automate, nor record, these changes; it’s for live performance only.


                      I assume you mean you cannot automate or record these changes into Session View? My Macro Knob movements record perfectly fine as automation in Arrangement View.
                      David Cross
                      Public Media Coordinator
                      Ableton Inc.

                      cross@ableton.com

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I think I may have found the issue for this Live crash. I think there may have been two interacting settings (my disk speed is 5400 rpm).

                        1. The Plug-in buffer size in Preferences/cpu was set to 128 (although I had tried them all.
                        2. The "Default SR and pitch conversion" in Preferences/Audio was set to "High Quality"

                        I re-set:

                        1. to "as audio" (I don't know what it was when I upgraded)
                        2. to "normal" and turned off "Hi-Q" in all my .wav loops and samples.....

                        It has run for 10 minutes now, which is some kind of record.....:-) The only issue is an occasional distortion on one of the bass samples.. I may try reloading them in Impulse to see if that helps....

                        cpu is down to 10% which is comparable to GR2.......

                        Best Regards,

                        Chuck


                        I'm now doubting it is the configuration; GR2 acts the same way (I just tested it), and runs perfectly. Also, I tried single channel in/output (simplest possible configuration) in Live using AT2 and it crashed as usual.

                        In order to access the 4 outputs of the AK1, I using two send tracks, assigning them to ext. outs 1/2 and 3/4 respectively (two stereo outputs, center panned which gives me the same signal at all four output jacks). Again, this works just fine for GR2 at about 6% cpu)

                        And again, AT2 works fine unless I start looping Live (that is, the VST
                        doesn't crash until I turn on the looping).

                        FWIW, I've been toying with the idea of overclocking, but I don't really need it for the stuff I'm doing so crawl along at 2.53 Ghz. My mb is also a P5B deluxe, of course. (I'm just using a single amp model with no cabs or effects until I can get it to stop crashing..) Of course, the laptop mb doesn't lend itself to overclocking anyway, although duo core 2 gHz should handle a single Live/AT2 instance.... And it is primarily the laptop I'm working on, since its crash is so consistent.

                        I still don't have the full AT2/AK1 issues sorted out, and of course I am in contact with Ableton, NI, and IK on this issue. But because GR2 is rock solid for every configuration I've tried, I can't help thinking that it is an IK AT2 issue....

                        But I'm beginning to get in way above my skill set................:-)
                        "Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
                        http://www.flamencochuck.com

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I assume you mean you cannot automate or record these changes into Session View? My Macro Knob movements record perfectly fine as automation in Arrangement View.


                          Automating Macro knob movements work great, no problem there. I was referring to editing the Key Zones themselves (moving the high end down, low end up, etc.). They aren't shaded and while I tried getting them to bind to the macro controls, I couldn't. Nor could I bind then to standard MIDI automation (if I'm missing something, let me know). I realize that setting keyboard splits/zones is generally not considered a live performance gesture but thanks to Live 6, I found out it could be...

                          But this got me thinking: Time for a new MIDI effect called "The Zone Ranger." It would have two parameters, Lowest Note and Highest Note. Only notes within the range would pass through the effect, and the parameters could be automated to do the sort of thing I was trying to do with the Zone handles. Make sense?

                          All I can say is try doing what I described with the Key Zone upper and lower limits while a MIDI sequence (with a fairly wide range of notes) is playing, and I think you'll see what I mean about this being a really musically useful effect!
                          N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                          Subscribe, like, and share the links!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Chuck -- one other thing about Live and laptops -- when performing, I convert all my clips to RAM clips (I typically use 20-40 relatively short loops). This makes all the difference in the world with a 5400 RPM drive. If I keep them all as streaming clips, there tends to be sputtering/dropouts that wouldn't happen with a higher speed drive.

                            Since doing that, Live has NEVER hiccupped -- not even once -- during a show.
                            N E W S O N G ! To Say 'No' Would Be a Crime (Remix) is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                            Subscribe, like, and share the links!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I realize we users always want our cake and eat it too.

                              However, as I posted earlier, I am concerned about the frame rate selections for video. In Live, it appears to be 24 or 30 only. Can that be correct?
                              In the US, all video is at 29.97, not 30. Does Ableton mean 29.97, or is it really 30?


                              Are you talking about Live's ability to slave to SMPTE code?

                              In Live, you can choose between MIDI Timecodes:

                              24 FPS
                              25 FPS
                              30 FPS drop
                              30 FPS non drop
                              and "all".

                              "all" means:
                              When the Rate is set to "all", Live will auto-detect the Timecode format of incoming sync messages and interpret the messages accordingly.

                              According to this, 29.97 FPS should be OK as MIDI timecode master and interpreted correctly by Live.
                              David Cross
                              Public Media Coordinator
                              Ableton Inc.

                              cross@ableton.com

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                But this got me thinking: Time for a new MIDI effect called "The Zone Ranger." It would have two parameters, Lowest Note and Highest Note. Only notes within the range would pass through the effect, and the parameters could be automated to do the sort of thing I was trying to do with the Zone handles. Make sense?


                                Hrm, I'm wondering if a chain of multi-mapped Ableton MIDI effects could accomplish the functionality you're looking for.
                                David Cross
                                Public Media Coordinator
                                Ableton Inc.

                                cross@ableton.com

                                Comment













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