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  • #91






    Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
    View Post

    All right...that was enough work for one day! Enjoy the clips, I'm signing off here for today. Let me know if you have any questions about the clips. Oh, BTW, the effects were on for the various presets as well, hence the reverb.




    I am more excited than ever about my vl4... hopefully i will get it next week!



    now, can you do unisons but change the gender? how about unisons with different characteristics that will make it sound like 5 different people singing the same song at the same key, no harmonies, choir like?



    anyways, just a question...



    Thanks again!



    Omar
    Originally Posted by VÃ****ctor


    ..Si te separas, espero que no, avÃ****same podÃ****amos vivir juntos, eso si, sin mariconeo...









    Originally Posted by artiem


    The truest indicator of one's character is how he acts when there are no consequences.




    SPAM: FT/FS

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    • #92
      Anderton,



      You da man!

      Comment


      • #93
        Thanks for posting these Mr. Anderton. Did you trigger the harmonies from your guitar chords or did you program the VL4 keys instead?



        I have to confess that I'd prefer to hear these in some sort of context with a guide guitar or something in the background, as the vocals/harmonies seem to waiver between pitch and on some settings it's difficult to hear the overall melody, making me wonder if it's the unit that's slightly off in it's harmonizing or the performance of the straight vocal (no offense).

        Comment


        • #94
          Good clips. They give a nice indication of what the VL4 does.



          Neuro-feed's comment brings something to mind. In my (limited) experience with the VL4, you will want to sing "straighter" than normal. Just hit your notes and don't do a lot of swoops and dips to try to make it interesting. If you do, the VL4 tends to exaggerate them in a way that can sound artificial. If you are singing with the VL4, the key is to remember that you have to do a lot less to make it interesting than before.

          Comment


          • #95






            Quote Originally Posted by neuro-feed
            View Post

            Thanks for posting these Mr. Anderton. Did you trigger the harmonies from your guitar chords or did you program the VL4 keys instead?




            I just set the scale to E major, although when singing this song live, I use the MusIQ.








            I have to confess that I'd prefer to hear these in some sort of context with a guide guitar or something in the background, as the vocals/harmonies seem to waiver between pitch and on some settings it's difficult to hear the overall melody, making me wonder if it's the unit that's slightly off in it's harmonizing or the performance of the straight vocal (no offense).



            It's the performance of the straight vocal! I was going to re-do it and then I thought, no, we need some material for the Pitch Correction to chomp and also, as "real world" an example as possible. So I made a deal with myself to just do one take, and resist the temptation to fix anything.



            As to context. I thought about that BUT as there were questions about hiss and what the harmonies sounded like by themselves, I thought that "brutal honesty" was the best approach.



            If you want to hear the "real" song, surf on over to http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/l...t/jun-07/29108 and click on the Audio File in the box toward the right side of the page. For info on how it was recorded, scroll to the bottom of the page.
            Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

            Subscribe, like, and share the links!

            Comment


            • #96






              Quote Originally Posted by Omaha
              View Post

              Good clips. They give a nice indication of what the VL4 does.



              Neuro-feed's comment brings something to mind. In my (limited) experience with the VL4, you will want to sing "straighter" than normal. Just hit your notes and don't do a lot of swoops and dips to try to make it interesting. If you do, the VL4 tends to exaggerate them in a way that can sound artificial. If you are singing with the VL4, the key is to remember that you have to do a lot less to make it interesting than before.




              Very good point. I'd add that in live performance, the occasional swoop or dip won't last long enough to make much difference, but if it's a studio situation, it pays to be a little more careful. Then again, in the studio, I usually just overdub any harmonies...
              Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

              Subscribe, like, and share the links!

              Comment


              • #97






                Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                View Post

                I just set the scale to E major, although when singing this song live, I use the MusIQ.







                It's the performance of the straight vocal! I was going to re-do it and then I thought, no, we need some material for the Pitch Correction to chomp and also, as "real world" an example as possible. So I made a deal with myself to just do one take, and resist the temptation to fix anything.



                As to context. I thought about that BUT as there were questions about hiss and what the harmonies sounded like by themselves, I thought that "brutal honesty" was the best approach.



                If you want to hear the "real" song, surf on over to http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/l...t/jun-07/29108 and click on the Audio File in the box toward the right side of the page. For info on how it was recorded, scroll to the bottom of the page.




                Thanks for this. So you think hiss is ok for recording? Though your clips sound fine I'm not sure I can agree that it passes the test as a unit you could rely on for recording. There are a lot of studio fobes who will be disappointed I think with it. However, budget is always going to be a consideration and demos can only be as good as you can afford to present. So you can get pretty good harmony for under $500 and there you go.



                Just wonder how you would rate this in comparison to the TC Helicon? Are you saying no appreciable difference in sound quality (not so much the harmony quality but sound/output record quality)?



                I'm finding it interesting as well, that some are saying that you should avoid dipsy-doodles on singing so the harmony won't play tricks. You agree with that and I'd have to go along. But this is disappointing. In relation to the TC Helicon unit ... both of the harmonizers (DigiTech and Helicon) don't take too well to ad libbing vocal lines.



                I was hoping the chord tracking would be better. I think it's clear that there is more going on than chord tracking - your vocal plays an influence on the resulting harmony. The promo literature that talks about the harmony following the guitar and not your voice isn't quite true! Be more direct to say the DigiTech units allow your vocal and guitar to generate harmony. A subtle difference.



                In the end, two live people can beat the process of the machine but I expect that in the future, the intelligence of the machine will allow you to program for such variables as an extended oooh or augh in your vocal line.



                Providing any patch settings etc you might create (this from anyone) would also be helpful in quickly arriving at other harmony styles. I'm not sure if you can post a chart using this web interface (perhaps a link to one if you create one) with the particular settings for each of the four to five control sets. That would be real helpful at dialing everything in.



                I'm going to try and work one up so I can know what I've done and have a reference. By the way, this could be another thing you could do with midi (if there was one) you could save your patches independently of the unit.



                I really think DigiTech is going to have to add midi to have the unit really take a hold of the market.



                Cheers,
                Keith (The Whiners)
                Sample using the VL 4 in a LIVE scenario ... Hear The Whiners using the VL and TC Helicon Harmony G units combined for harmony in recordings at The Whiners Web

                Comment


                • #98






                  Quote Originally Posted by whinersmusic
                  View Post

                  Thanks for this. So you think hiss is ok for recording?




                  And what have I ever said that would cause you to infer that?



                  With the VL4, I have no audible hiss but your continued talking about this made me think that even though others don't hear it, there must be some kind of problem...maybe I just wasn't hearing it. So, I figured it was testing time.



                  The attached screen shot shows a recording of the VL4 into Wavelab through the Line 6 KB37 interface, which presumably contributes some hiss of its own. For worst-case conditions, I turned on both the effects section and harmony section of the VL4, set the harmony and straight levels to maximum, disabled the noise gate, and chose preset #51 (3rd above).



                  I then highlighted the area where there were no vocals and only residual hiss, and called up the normalize function, as it has a peak-reading option. As you can see, the hiss is down -78.268dB. And remember, that's the hiss of the entire recording chain, not just the VL4.



                  Now maybe that's a big deal to you, but it's a highly respectable noise spec. Furthermore, it's so low that it could be easily gated without causing any audible side effects, or processed with noise reduction software to get it down to -90dB - which is about the same amount of attenuation as turning a physical potentiometer all the way to off. As far as I'm concerned, it's case closed on the question of hiss.








                  Though your clips sound fine I'm not sure I can agree that it passes the test as a unit you could rely on for recording.



                  Well if it sounds fine, and the noise is down more than -78dB, I consider it a unit I could rely on for recording. And I think most other people would, too. The fact that you're the only person who keeps bringing up hiss makes me think there is either something wrong with your unit or, more likely, something about your recording signal chain. Why don't you measure the output of your VL4 (with the input left open to take any noise generated by the mic out of the picture) and report back to us?








                  Just wonder how you would rate this in comparison to the TC Helicon? Are you saying no appreciable difference in sound quality (not so much the harmony quality but sound/output record quality)?



                  I didn't say anything because I don't have a current TC Helicon I can put up against it for comparison. However, I would say that if the Helicon does -78dB or better with the effects and harmonies full up, I'd be pleased with that as well.








                  I'm finding it interesting as well, that some are saying that you should avoid dipsy-doodles on singing so the harmony won't play tricks. You agree with that and I'd have to go along.



                  Actually, I said "Very good point. I'd add that in live performance, the occasional swoop or dip won't last long enough to make much difference, but if it's a studio situation, it pays to be a little more careful."








                  But this is disappointing. In relation to the TC Helicon unit ... both of the harmonizers (DigiTech and Helicon) don't take too well to ad libbing vocal lines.



                  Well I don't find it all that surprising that if you don't give a pitch processing unit a sound with a relatively strong sense of pitch, there's the possibility to confuse the unit.








                  I was hoping the chord tracking would be better. I think it's clear that there is more going on than chord tracking - your vocal plays an influence on the resulting harmony. The promo literature that talks about the harmony following the guitar and not your voice isn't quite true! Be more direct to say the DigiTech units allow your vocal and guitar to generate harmony. A subtle difference.



                  The literature is correct, the VL4 follows the guitar. However, it has memory that takes the voice data into account so that if the guitar data goes away, it can make educated guesses based on the past history of the interaction between guitar and voice. I find that the chord tracking is excellent, actually. What I find even more amazing is that you can play some seriously interesting chords, like suspended with added 9th, and the VL4 doesn't freak out.








                  I really think DigiTech is going to have to add midi to have the unit really take a hold of the market.



                  Given the fact that they can't make these things fast enough, I don't think most people perceive the lack of MIDI as problematic! They understand that it's called Vocalist LIVE and is designed to offer the most painless onstage experience possible. There are plenty of harmony devices with MIDI built in, why reinvent the wheel? However, there aren't any harmony devices with the same kind of chord tracking. I've never used MIDI-only harmony devices live. I use the VL4. That's the difference.



                  I hope you find whatever is causing the hiss you're perceiving, because I just don't think that -78dB under worst-case conditions would be sufficient to elicit your reaction.
                  Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                  Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                  • #99
                    "I'm finding it interesting as well, that some are saying that you should avoid dipsy-doodles on singing so the harmony won't play tricks. You agree with that and I'd have to go along. But this is disappointing. In relation to the TC Helicon unit ... both of the harmonizers (DigiTech and Helicon) don't take too well to ad libbing vocal lines."



                    I found this to be true with the VL2 as well, though it was difficult to determine if it was the vocal performance or the guitar chord voicing that was causing the problem. For example, when singing The Beatles, "Hard Day's Night" in the key of G maj, the lead vocal note stays on D while the chord changes to C maj. I perform it the same way that Lennon does - a slight slide up to the note, but when switching the chord to C maj under the D lead vocal, the 3rd above harmony would sometimes play back the 7th (F) when it should be playing G over both chords. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, but I found that it improved if I hit the first notes dead on instead of the slide up. Unfortunately, that's not how the song is performed.



                    "I was hoping the chord tracking would be better. I think it's clear that there is more going on than chord tracking - your vocal plays an influence on the resulting harmony."



                    I was actually very impressed with Craig's mp3 of the 3rd above without any straight vocal. It sounded very real and natural to me, as if he had sung it. When it seems to start sounding fake to my ears, however, is when additional vocals are added.

                    Comment


                    • Regarding Whinersmusic...after reviewing his posts, he said in order to avoid distortion he’s setting his vocals so that he just tickles the green LED, because otherwise he gets clipping when the harmonies come in. Given that he’s operating way down from the pre-amp rails, that would definitely lead to hiss. The optimal setting is to tickle the red with the vocal.



                      So really, the question is not why he's getting hiss -- I think we know that -- but why he's getting distortion. When I've plugged headphones directly into the VL4 out, I don't hear distortion when the harmonies kick in and the levels are set correctly. So at this point, I would have to assume that the downstream setup can't handle the VL-4's output (which as several have commented, is pretty hot as it designed to drive line-level/pro gear).



                      Perhaps the solution is to turn down the vocal and harmony level controls at the VL-4 way down to avoid overloading subsequent stages, so it would still be possible to gain-stage those subsequent stages properly?
                      Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                      Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                      • Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                        View Post

                        And what have I ever said that would cause you to infer that? ...




                        Thanks .. I also indicated it could be me and maybe it is! Obviously no one else is uptight about it so let the trend support a thumbs up for this aspect. Glad you went the extra mile and I can't argue with data.



                        I go back to the statements about reviews and how to take out what you can from them. I don't mind being perceived as somewhat of a devil's advocate or off the mark (not to say I don't believe what I've already said). I don't think the unit is a waste of cash at all but, at the same time, it has a few disappointments.



                        Nuff said.
                        Keith (The Whiners)
                        Sample using the VL 4 in a LIVE scenario ... Hear The Whiners using the VL and TC Helicon Harmony G units combined for harmony in recordings at The Whiners Web

                        Comment








                        • Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                          View Post

                          Regarding Whinersmusic...after reviewing his posts, he said in order to avoid distortion he’s setting his vocals so that he just tickles the green LED, because otherwise he gets clipping when the harmonies come in.




                          Just want to add I've varied the levels from hot to not so hot and the best rendering comes from tickling the green - true on both the VL 4 and 2. I would love to go hotter but can't, it seems, for peeks distortion when the harmony kicks in. So, yes, that would account for some of the hiss. I think my post on what I shoot for on levels is self explanatory and probably couldn't be argued with. Just the subjective nature of my ear is where you would seemingly catch me and perhaps what I'm freaking out about as "distortion" is just mixer overload though I can't believe I'm that stupid. I do find I have to get the green strong for the guitar and that is not distorting at all so go figure?
                          Keith (The Whiners)
                          Sample using the VL 4 in a LIVE scenario ... Hear The Whiners using the VL and TC Helicon Harmony G units combined for harmony in recordings at The Whiners Web

                          Comment








                          • Quote Originally Posted by whinersmusic
                            View Post

                            Thanks .. I also indicated it could be me and maybe it is!




                            I don't think it's you, I think it's a misadjustment somewhere in your system. Try boosting the input and turning the vocal and harmony controls way down, and report back if that helps reduce the hiss issue. Good luck!



                            Craig
                            Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                            Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                            • Anderton,



                              Thanks for going the extra mile.

                              Comment








                              • Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                                View Post

                                And what have I ever said that would cause you to infer that?






                                I just realized that on my post it had "so you think hiss is ok for recording". Yikes! I had thought I wrote "so you think the hiss is ok for recording?" Meaning the hiss from the unit isn't enough of an issue to prevent good results. Really wasn't my intention to imply that anyone would think hiss is good for recording. So, Anderton, you never did say anything to cause me to infer that and sorry for the typo.



                                I'll also try going line out as opposed to XLR out from the units given that anything from balanced to unbalanced cables to line level variances from the XLR vs. the line outs could be an issue. I have a 16 board firewire ALESIS unit that was $680 and some change that is quiet and distortion free on mic direct in so I don't think it's my gear per se.
                                Keith (The Whiners)
                                Sample using the VL 4 in a LIVE scenario ... Hear The Whiners using the VL and TC Helicon Harmony G units combined for harmony in recordings at The Whiners Web

                                Comment













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