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  • #31
    Hi craig, great review so far, as always.

    At some point, i would like to know or take about if you consider live to be a genre specific daw, like those loops genres and so on, or if you think that live is just another daw for any kind of music.

    IF you do consider live as genre specific, how do you live integrated with someone using pro tools, sonar, o any other daw?
    My Blog/Mi Blog Frecuencia Fundamental / Fundamental Frequency

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    • #32
      I'll take a brief detour here and answer your question.

      As stated earlier, I consider Live to be a musical instrument disguised as a DAW. However, that is a personal take based on how I use it. The truth is there are many, many ways to use Live. I'm always amazed when I look over someone's shoulder and see how they use the program: You'd almost think it was a different program each time.

      I saw one guy who used Live and never used more than one scene. He dragged loops in and out of the one scene doing DJ mixes. On the other hand I use a zillion scenes to do much the same thing. Some people use Live the way others would use something like Traktor, others use it like a straight-ahead DAW, sticking mostly to the arrangement view.

      Some Mac users got into Live as "Acid for the Mac" in the days before Boot Camp. Others started using Live in addition to a DAW like, say, Pro Tools, but over time Live took over and became their DAW of choice.

      Live has gotten to the point where you can pretty much use it however you want. I gigged with a guy in Europe who used Live as a host for signal processors on stage - he never recorded anything or even used loops. And I saw George Lewis using Live with two laptops, doing mostly musique concrete-type stuff.

      As to integration with other hosts, Pro Tools, Sonar, DP, et al don't have anything like Session View, but they do have other attributes (don't try to do notation in Live - you won't find it!). However, Live has the unusual ability to ReWire as either a host OR client. So, there's nothing to stop you from, say, using Session View in Live to develop a song, then ReWire it into a host either to run Live concurrently, or for that matter, record the Session View tracks into the host.

      One last thought: Just because Live excels at doing some things doesn't diminish the other things it can do. It's like a sports car; yes, you can take curves on the Amalfi drive at 120km But you can also use it to drive to the supermarket, and it will bring back groceries just as well as a sedan that was designed mainly for going to the supermarket and not take curves real fast.

      Furthermore, just because Live is a brilliant program doesn't mean other programs aren't brilliant in their own ways. That's one reason why I continue to use different programs for different applications.
      Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

      Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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      • #33
        I'll take a brief detour here and answer your question.

        And I saw George Lewis using Live with two laptops, doing mostly musique concrete-type stuff.



        Awesome!

        Check your PMs
        My Blog/Mi Blog Frecuencia Fundamental / Fundamental Frequency

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        • #34
          This is sort of half-effect, half-application as it follows the function of classic loopers - think Lexicon JamMan, or if you really want to step back into history, DeltaLab's Echotron. Its tempo can sync to the program project, or can analyze your playing and sync to that (no surprise, really - after all, this IS Live).

          For my "how easy is this to figure out" test, I just jumped in to see if I could get it to work. So I loaded up a drum loop for reference in one track, created another track for guitar and inserted the Looper. Then I set the Record parameter to four bars (you can choose from 1-8, 12, or 16 bars, as well as "variable"). Referring to the attached image, the + sign next to the record field means that the looper will overdub what's played on subsequent passes. You can also choose > (play), which means it will record for the desired number of beats, then play back.

          Incidentally, the orange rectangles toward the top indicate the "step" the looper is on. This makes it very easy to see exactly where you are in the loop as they continue their march from left to right (unless you're in reverse mode, when they march from right to left - we'll get into reverse mode shortly).

          So far, so good. Note the transport bar: It allows you to stop overdubbing and play back (of course, you can continue playing, it just won't be recorded), as well as resume overdubbing. There's a good reason to use the overdub/playback buttons liberally: You can undo whatever was recorded since the last time you clicked on overdub (as well as redo if you change your mind). So for live use, you might want to just keep overdubbing until you either run out of patience or good taste. But if you're using Loop to generate an actual file (more on this later), you can do a part then hit play when you're satisfied with it, and click on overdub when you want to record another part. If the part doesn't work out, no big deal - just hit undo, and try again. Otherwise, click on Play to set another, uh, "system restore point" if you want to undo your next overdub.

          Once I had a loop I liked, I experimented with some of the other controls. Reverse does exactly what you hoped - it reverses playback, which is perfect for your Jimi Hendrix tribute tune (always a crowd-pleaser). But wait! There's more!, as they say on the late-night TV commercials. While in reversed mode, if you overdub, Looper will record it. But then if you uncheck reverse, what you recorded while in reversed mode will be reversed. For example, suppose while non-reversed, you hit a power chord at the beginning of a four-measure loop and let it decay. Then you click on reverse, and now your power chord starts off from nothing and increases in level over four measures. Now play a lead line on top of it; it will play back normally. But if you disable reverse, your original power chord will play back normally, but your lead line will now be reversed. So the bottom line is you can switch back and forth between reversed and forward parts at will. I like this, and I'll record an audio example at some point before we're done with the Looper.
          Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

          Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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          • #35
            Looks very powerful, but I still do not get the full hang of it... And it is maybe because I have never worked with loopers before... Looking forward to see what you can achieve with the looper!!!
            Originally Posted by VÃ****ctor


            ..Si te separas, espero que no, avÃ****same podÃ****amos vivir juntos, eso si, sin mariconeo...









            Originally Posted by artiem


            The truest indicator of one's character is how he acts when there are no consequences.




            SPAM: FT/FS

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            • #36
              Looks very powerful, but I still do not get the full hang of it... And it is maybe because I have never worked with loopers before... Looking forward to see what you can achieve with the looper!!!


              If you're familiar with "Frippertronics," as it was called, then you'll know one thing looping is good for - long, ambient textures that evolve over time but repeat. For example, you can do a loop of a long sustained note, then build up a chord over a few passes...then turn off overdubbing, and play a lead over that (with lots of echo ).

              It's also fun for layering rhythm parts with guitar, not that I mean to imply it's only for guitarists...it's just that guitarists have embraced this kind of looping more than other musicians. I seem to vaguely remember a sax player who did really cool looping things, building up chords and playing solos over it...can't remember who it was, though.
              Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

              Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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              • #37
                Hi craig.

                I found in a video that APC40´s faders take Live´s faders past unity gain at the top position. I see lots of potential for some samples to clip in that...

                Do you think that would be a problem? Is there a way to program the APC40´s to be "unity gain" at their top position?
                My Blog/Mi Blog Frecuencia Fundamental / Fundamental Frequency

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                • #38
                  Dennis could probably confirm this, but I believe that the way Live's audio engine works, it's possible for individual channels to go above zero without problems because there's sufficient headroom. Where you would run into problems would be if the signals went above zero at the master, because that's where the program meets the audio interface - which will always have a definite headroom limitation.

                  To me, being able to go above zero is not a problem, in fact I see it as an advantage as long as the master keeps the output level under control. I tend to run Live conservatively, with the channel faders not going above zero. But every now and then, I want to give some extra "kick" to a track and that's when it's nice to have a little room left over to do that.

                  Now it's time for me to get back to working with the looper...we're not done with it yet!
                  Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                  Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                  • #39
                    One of the best things about Pro Reviews is being able to include audio examples so you can hear what I'm talking about. Well, it's time for an audio example of just one way to use the looper: To create a repeating background 8-bar phrase against which other loops can play.

                    The attached image shows the setup I used to create the looped track. The guitar is a Gibson Dark Fire, and I used an E-Bow on a several of the looper overdubs. The Delay adds those nice spacey echoes you'll hear.

                    Anyway, I did multiple tracks, starting off with a sustained E-Bow tonic. After getting that the way I wanted, I set the Looper to Play mode and listened. I went back into overdub mode, and added a sustained E-Bow fifth.

                    I again went back into play, and tried a sort of lead line. It sounded okay, so I went back to overdub mode. But then I didn't like it, so I hit undo and got back to where I was before doing the last overdub (i.e., the last time it was in play mode). I instead went back into play, and practiced some other ideas. I liked adding a little rhythmic plucked figure, so that was next.

                    After every good overdub, I hit play so I could undo my next recording if needed without erasing the "good stuff." Eventually I ended up getting a couple of long E-Bow bent notes played high up on the neck.

                    At this point, the Looper was now a loop in Session View. I rummaged around my hard drive for a drum track ("Bubble," from Discrete Drums) and added that after the first complete repeat of the loop. Halfway though, I added a "Beat Filter" loop from my AdrenaLinn Guitars sample CD that runs until the whole thing fades out.

                    Check it out by clicking on the attached MP3 file. I think you're really gonna like it...
                    Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                    Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                    • #40
                      Craig,

                      That was very cool!!!

                      I have a question, did you record the loop first and then you added the drum track, if so, how did you manage to keep/match the beat?? or did you use Live's metronome for the loop?

                      Thanks!
                      Originally Posted by VÃ****ctor


                      ..Si te separas, espero que no, avÃ****same podÃ****amos vivir juntos, eso si, sin mariconeo...









                      Originally Posted by artiem


                      The truest indicator of one's character is how he acts when there are no consequences.




                      SPAM: FT/FS

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Craig,

                        That was very cool!!!


                        I agree! It sure was fun to do, too.

                        I have a question, did you record the loop first and then you added the drum track, if so, how did you manage to keep/match the beat?? or did you use Live's metronome for the loop?


                        That is a great question, because you've touched on one of the fundamental reasons why Live is so cool.

                        I recorded the Looper material at what seemed like a good tempo, and turned on the metronome for reference. Once the loop was done, it works just like any other loop in Live - it sits in a slot in Session View, and you can have it repeat.

                        At that point I thought it would make a more interesting musical example if I added drums. I found a good loop but it wasn't at the right tempo, but Live doesn't care - it automatically stretches the tempo to fit the existing project tempo.

                        Of course, Live is not the only program to do this, nor was it the first; that was Sony's Acid. However, Live makes the process very transparent, and Live 8 makes it easier to adjust the loop stretching to keep artifacts to a minimum.

                        The AdrenaLinn Guitars loop I added at the end was also not at the original project tempo, and again, Live made it fit. It's a beautiful thing

                        One thing I will say is that Live wasn't as good as Acid or Sonar in terms of letting you tweak the looping. On the one hand this was cool - just bring in a file, and Live would "make it so." Both Acid and Sonar convert audio into a format known as "Acidized." If the stretching wasn't optimum, you could edit the stretching in both programs and optimize the results. However, L8 has new stretch editing options I'll get into, and also, a few versions ago Live introduced the "complex warp" algorithm with is nothing short of miraculous - you can bring in really long files, even tens of minutes, and Live will adjust it to fit your project. I suspect some sort of sorcery is involved.
                        Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                        Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                        • #42
                          i love this place

                          and i love Live

                          weebz wrote:God appeared to me in a dream and said "Thou shalt post on Guitar Jam"

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                          • #43
                            THAT WAS AWESOME!!!!

                            great work and use of the looper,

                            shows the power of Live!

                            Thanks!
                            Originally Posted by VÃ****ctor


                            ..Si te separas, espero que no, avÃ****same podÃ****amos vivir juntos, eso si, sin mariconeo...









                            Originally Posted by artiem


                            The truest indicator of one's character is how he acts when there are no consequences.




                            SPAM: FT/FS

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Before moving on to the next section, let's go over some of the remaining Looper features.

                              It's worth mentioning that if Live's Transport is running, it takes priority over the Looper transport, and what you've done with the Looper acts just like a clip, including launch quantization and the like. And, although we've touched on this, the Looper's big transport button changes functions depending on whether material has been recorded and the Looper's playback state. The most important aspects is that you can toggle back and forth between overdub and playback modes, which is why when recording the audio example, it was a simple matter to practice while in playback mode, overdub once I figured out the part, undo a part if I didn't like it, return to play easily, etc.

                              Clicking on the +2 button doubles the buffer's length, duplicating any existing material (e.g., if you double a two-measure loop, the first two measures will also become the last two measures). Clicking on the :2 button does the reverse: It cuts the buffer length in half, and deletes any material in the second half. Caution: This doesn't seem to be undoable, so think twice before you decide to cut the buffer length!

                              The Speed button changes speed/pitch. This works like transposing a sample, as the loop length shortens if you speed it up, and lengthens if you slow it down. I don't find this function all that useful because I generally want the speed to match the project tempo, but there are two exceptions: The up and down arrow buttons jump the speed/pitch up and down an octave, so it stays in time with your project.

                              We already talked about the Reverse button, but I have to mention it again because it's soooo cool to be able to reverse individual layers.

                              Feedback is used for the recording process, and determines the level of previously-recorded material when doing overdubs. I usually leave this at 100%, which means that previously-recorded material is at full volume on subsequent overdubs. Lesser settings reduce the level. This is useful if, for example, you're building up layers with tons of echo. You might want to lay down some very basic parts at the beginning, and more complex parts later on, but not want the early parts to compete in terms of level with the later ones. Reducing the feedback amount makes that possible.

                              The Input/Output button basically determines the conditions under which you hear the input signal - for example, you can hear it while overdub or recording, but mute it during playback.

                              you can insert Looper into another track, process Looper through that track, then feed the track output back into Looper. So, in the audio example I did earlier, for some of the parts with the long delays I could just as easily have used this feature rather than adding the Simple Delay after the Looper.

                              The rest of the buttons and controls deal more with "housekeeping," like whether Looper follows the song tempo, or sets it...that sort of thing. But one feature that's definitely worthy of note is the Drag me! button. This lets you drag the looped audio into wherever you want in the browser, like the Clips folder in the library or whatever. This dragged file is simply audio, and when you bring it into Live, no associated Looper appears. Note: You can't drag directly to, say, the Desktop or a folder on a hard drive; you have to use Live's browser and drag into the Desktop or folder that shows up in the browser.

                              One last thing: Yes, those buttons and such are MIDI-controllable - so if you want to tie the play/overdub multi-function button into a footswitch, go for it!

                              That's probably enough about the Looper, so unless anyone has questions or Dennis wants to point out something really important I've overlooked, let's proceeed to the Multiband Dynamics effect. In case you're not impressed by that topic, just wait - those who saw my Power App Alley article in the July issue of EQ Magazine, where I described how to use the Multiband Dynamics to "undo" the effects of overcompression on a master recording, already know it does more than you might think...
                              Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                              Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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                              • #45
                                The new vocoder is also very nice

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