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  • #31
    Interesting that yours has stickers over the model name on both the top and back? Phonic has really muddied the waters by calling it a "Summit" in the world market but an "S16" in the US market. Further, the "S16" name is going to be used worldwide for a very similar but quite different mixer coming out any day now and already in their current catalog:

    https://phonic.box.net/shared/static/n03rny835v.pdf

    This one adds USB3 and the ability to record directly to a USB drive so you can use it as a stand alone workstation. Also remote control via built-in WiFi to an iPad . Full MIDI including the ability to use it as a DAW control surface. Oh, and external monitor and mouse support.



    BTW I have an "old S16" coming in. One of the advantages of the Phonics FUD about the model name is it appears they are phasing out the S16 name on the Summits so you can buy an S16 for about $400 less than a Summit even though they are the same exact mixer . MAP on a Summit w/usb+firewire card is $1900 but the S16-PACK (S16 w/usb+firewire) is going for $1500 . As I'm going to be using this mostly live i don't see the neeed to wait for a "true S16" but anybody using it in the recording studio should probably get the new one.

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    • #32






      Quote Originally Posted by RoadRanger
      View Post

      Interesting that yours has stickers over the model name on both the top and back? Phonic has really muddied the waters by calling it a "Summit" in the world market but an "S16" in the US market. Further, the "S16" name is going to be used worldwide for a very similar but quite different mixer coming out any day now and already in their current catalog:

      https://phonic.box.net/shared/static/n03rny835v.pdf

      This one adds USB3 and the ability to record directly to a USB drive so you can use it as a stand alone workstation. Also remote control via built-in WiFi to an iPad . Full MIDI including the ability to use it as a DAW control surface. Oh, and external monitor and mouse support.



      BTW I have an "old S16" coming in. One of the advantages of the Phonics FUD about the model name is it appears they are phasing out the S16 name on the Summits so you can buy an S16 for about $400 less than a Summit even though they are the same exact mixer . MAP on a Summit w/usb+firewire card is $1900 but the S16-PACK (S16 w/usb+firewire) is going for $1500 . As I'm going to be using this mostly live i don't see the neeed to wait for a "true S16" but anybody using it in the recording studio should probably get the new one.




      I think the issue is that Summit Audio objected to the name, was going to reach an accommodation, but then decided not to...or something like that. I think it's kind of a bogus issue, as a digital mixer is pretty different from a rack-mount signal processor ("Damn! I bought this digital mixer thinking it was a rack-mount compressor!"), but hey...the legal system is not for me to understand.



      That S16-Pack sounds like a really good deal...
      Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

      Subscribe, like, and share the links!

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      • #33
        Interesting re: the Summit name issue!



        I see that MF shows out-of-stock until 11/11 so I'd speculate those are going to be the "new" S16's?



        As we seem to be the only two folks in HC land with one I'd like to discuss it a bit - Perhaps there is a better forum for that than "Pro Reviews"? In particular I find it a bit limiting that the pre-fader aux sends are post EQ, post dynamics and post delay assuming that is true as the block diagram shows? I suppose it would be "fun" to put a bit of delay on that lead singer's monitor send when he pisses you off but otherwise not terribly useful in live use? It would be nice if you could select the "tap" point of the pre-fader sends - I'd never want it post compression or delay and would often just want it post gate only or post gate and limiter, no need for pre gate ever I think? I'd be happy if they just moved it to pre delay .



        I also find 8 groups a bit silly on a 16 channel mixer - now if it allowed multiple groups to be summed to multi outs they could be used as matrices for fills and delays .



        Oh, and I don't see any easy way to toggle the vocal FX on and off between songs - pretty much a necessity for live use.

        Comment


        • #34
          Hello RoadRanger,

          It is not our intention to confuse customers with the Summit/S16 naming. Given the circumstance at the time, we needed to restrict our spending on our product development and people, not legal. The next digital mixer from Phonic will indeed have full MIDI capabilities, remote editing program, optional external screen/mouse, and we are looking into naming it something other than the S16. That product will be at least $2000 MAP without the USB recording interface, so your current Phonic digital mixer is still a great deal.



          Regarding the pre fader aux sends, we felt it was the way users are accustomed to on Cubase, Samplitude and other mixers. But our product managers can definitely look at adding other options via a future firmware update.
          Caitlyn
          www.phonic.com
          www.facebook.com/phonic.audio/

          Comment


          • #35






            Quote Originally Posted by caitlyntw
            View Post

            Hello RoadRanger,

            It is not our intention to confuse customers with the Summit/S16 naming. Given the circumstance at the time, we needed to restrict our spending on our product development and people, not legal.




            Sounds reasonable to me - it was just rather confusing to us here in the states thinking about buying one .





            The next digital mixer from Phonic will indeed have full MIDI capabilities, remote editing program, optional external screen/mouse, and we are looking into naming it something other than the S16.



            Yah, IMO yous guys kinda burned that one - kinda silly trying to explain to dealers and potential customers the difference betwen an S16 and an S16 .





            That product will be at least $2000 MAP without the USB recording interface, so your current Phonic digital mixer is still a great deal.



            We shall see .





            Regarding the pre fader aux sends, we felt it was the way users are accustomed to on Cubase, Samplitude and other mixers.



            Yous guys may never understand how that statement would tick off a live sound guy (hint: you mentioned two "recording only" mixers totally useless for live sound). OTOH your works like the Yamaha 01V96 so I can't really fault you - except I sure would like mixer designers to pay a bit of attention to what the live sound market needs.



            Probably the most respected small live sound mixer is the A&H MixWiz - partially because it defaults to the pre-fader sends also being pre-EQ and re-insert (but it has internal jumpers to move that tap point on a per-channel basis).



            The Presonus StudioLive is gaining a lot of market share now as it is very "live" friendly. The pre-fader sends are switchable to post gate, post limiter, or post mute - with a fixed order of insert, phase, HPF, gate, comp, EQ, limiter, and mute. It also is a true 16 channel board as opposed to yours only having 13 for the stage - in live use you always need one input for a talkback mic and two more for the break music. The SL16 has 23 channels of A/D including 16 "normal" channels, a stereo channel for break music, two more stereo channels, and a dedicated talkback channel.



            I'm going to try to use a stereo analog to s/pdif converter into your AES input for the break music and get back up to the number of channels a MizWix has in normal use - I'd be happy with that .

            Comment


            • #36






              Quote Originally Posted by RoadRanger
              View Post

              ...is also is a true 16 channel board as opposed to yours only having 13 for the stage - in live use you always need one input for a talkback mic and two more for the break music. The SL16 has 23 channels of A/D including 16 "normal" channels, a stereo channel for break music, two more stereo channels, and a dedicated talkback channel.




              I noticed in Andertons post near the top of this page, a photo showing 2TR ins (as well as outs) - in my world these are for break music.



              Is there something about this board that won't output this into the mains?
              Tastes like Chicken

              Comment


              • #37






                Quote Originally Posted by TuMadre
                View Post

                I noticed in Andertons post near the top of this page, a photo showing 2TR ins (as well as outs) - in my world these are for break music.




                Those are switched into channels 15 and 16 using those up if you want to use them. The Yamaha 01V96 also does that .

                Comment


                • #38
                  Admittedly, our main product manager for the Phonic S Digital Mixer has a strong studio background and is from the recording side so his personal passion and preference tends to bleed into the resulting product. I'm going to ask him to take a careful look at all your comments and see if we can improve the product for a live application.



                  We're open to all feedback on Phonic's next digital mixer to make it a live desk. Changes are always easier when we're still in development phase.
                  Caitlyn
                  www.phonic.com
                  www.facebook.com/phonic.audio/

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    No worries - Presonus is a recording biased company too and their mixer had issues for live sound usage when it first came out . In fact there is a beta firmware out now that once again improves their "live" usability.



                    You actually start off with a couple advantages over the SL - you have full range fully parametric EQ and the hi and low can be switched to LP and HP so your output EQs can be used as a "poor man's" crossover with an aux fed sub setup and your EQ should be more usable for feedback suppression on the monitor feeds . Feel free to contact me off-line if you'd like further input from the "live side" .



                    Unfortunately without those three more inputs I mentioned (stereo iPod and talkback) you'll always have limited appeal to the live market - the Yamaha 01V96 gets away with it because everyone adds an 8 channel ADAT expander to it anyways as it only has 12 mic pre's so it ends up with 20 mic inputs and 4 line inputs (2 of those normally used for the iPod) plus 14 outputs (4 multi's, the mains plus 8 on the expander).

                    Comment


                    • #40






                      Quote Originally Posted by caitlyntw
                      View Post

                      Admittedly, our main product manager for the Phonic S Digital Mixer has a strong studio background and is from the recording side so his personal passion and preference tends to bleed into the resulting product. I'm going to ask him to take a careful look at all your comments and see if we can improve the product for a live application.



                      We're open to all feedback on Phonic's next digital mixer to make it a live desk. Changes are always easier when we're still in development phase.




                      FWIW - I just wanted to add that is NOT corporate-speak for "go away." I've met the Phonic people at trade shows and they are indeed very interested in feedback, and requests have an interesting way of showing up in the future.



                      I'm approaching it more from a studio standpoint myself, so that makes your comments additionally valuable as it gives a different perspective. But of course, that's what's cool about a pro review: I don't know everything, so when you get an entire group of people discussing a piece of gear, a much fuller picture emerges.



                      Speaking of which...I'm done with my NAMM video obligations, so I can get back to pro reviews again.
                      Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                      Subscribe, like, and share the links!

                      Comment


                      • #41






                        Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                        View Post

                        FWIW - I just wanted to add that is NOT corporate-speak for "go away." I've met the Phonic people at trade shows and they are indeed very interested in feedback, and requests have an interesting way of showing up in the future.




                        Kudos to them for participating here and to you for a bunch of valuable info that I'm sure will be most helpful when my Summit/S16 shows up on Friday or more likely Monday . I was hoping to use it Saturday but the vendor I bought if from had to track down the last one in the country (?) and ship it from Nevada. They usually ship from NJ which is next day via UPS ground for me.



                        EDIT> Just checked UPS tracking and it's been rescheduled to Friday delivery - yeah for me .

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Receive on Friday, use on Saturday? Wow, that's pretty brave. Remember what I said about the "eureka" moment when the UI made sense to me - there are many ways to view what's going on in the mixer, and once you "get" the operating system, it all falls into place. Until you do, it can be somewhat mystifying.



                          I'll be curious to see what you think of the reverb when you get it. It really sounds good to me, but as we all know, reverb is pretty subjective...I tend to favor the smooth/transparent/airy type more than the "you can hear the reflections" type.
                          Simplicity, my new album project, is now streamable from my YouTube channel.

                          Subscribe, like, and share the links!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I'll not be using much more than the basics - it'll be a reunion gig for a local band from the 60's for a fundraiser they're putting on. A gate on the kick is all I need for dynamics and some sort of basic reverb/chorus. I've used a StudioLive and a Behringer DDX3216 (Yamaha 01V96 clone) before so am not "starting from scratch" as far as digital mixers go. Hey, "No guts - no glory", eh?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Well, I didn't even power it up before the gig and it had a 12/09 manufacture date on it so an old firmware. Besides the usual digital board startup issues (EVERYTHING is off and not assigned to anything ) and some things that newer firmware improved upon (and I was aware of from reading the release notes) the only issue I had was I didn't have the manual with me and couldn't figure out how to "safe solo" everything. Worked smoothly and sounded great otherwise. I did HPF the mains at 100hz and used a post-fader aux for the sub feed - the multi out I used was HPF'd at 40 and LPF'd at 100 and it worked well enough without an external crossover . Having only 13 channels for the stage left me with one spare but I only had two mic's on the drums. I'll definitely be trying to use the AES input for break music soon to free up a couple more channels for the stage. I did received the USB/Firewire card free in the box but haven't installed it yet. Anyways this week I'll update the firmware and set up a starting scene suitable for live work. I haven't looked but I assume it doesn't have one already loaded?

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                              • #45
                                I updated the firmware to the latest Monday night no problem. It is MUCH easier to do on this mixer than a StudioLive. The Summit/S16 just needs the file on an SDCard whereas the StudioLive requires a firewire connection and a program installed on a computer. Probably not a problem for yous Mac-centric studio guys but us lowly live guys tend to be PC and getting firewaire on a PC is a bit of a nightmare .



                                I also spent a couple hours setting up a baseline "live sound" scene. I did find a couple issues that I'm discussing with Phonic over on their user forum:

                                http://getsatisfaction.com/phonic/topics

                                Specifically you can't presently get the FX into the monitors . Occasionally the talent will ask for that although I try to discourage it . Phonic is in the midst of changing the FX from being a typical aux fed configuration to being insertable on any channel, aux, or group so if they do that and also allow summing multiple sources on the multi outs we'd be golden I think .



                                There is also no button to defeat the FX between songs so the talent can chat up the audience. I've suggested that they let you re-assign the "main" "on" button to that function as I find that redundant to the fader right under it. Maybe they'll also allow the six buttons under the display to be re-assignable as they presently only duplicate the touch screen buttons directly above them .

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