Harmony Central Forums
Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

33338100

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse









X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76






    Quote Originally Posted by furikuri
    View Post

    Can you elaborate on live usage of the Apollo? Which plugs work, which don't?




    I'm not sure I understand the question...all plug-ins that are available normally within a DAW (in other words, you own them, or are running a trial version) work in the inserts and aux buses.
    _____________________________________________
    There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

    Comment


    • #77
      Hi Craig! Thank you for this amazing review!



      No one seems to have addressed using Apollo as a basic interface with your DAW without monitoring inputs from within the Console application. I know that sounds silly - why wouldn't you want to utilize the low latency monitoring feature, isn't that the whole point? However, say I want to record a vocal and add a 1073 and 1176 UAD plug-in on the front-end from within Console and commit it to audio, but I don't want to turn off software monitoring in my DAW because I want to use a certain delay plug-in on the vocal's channel strip so that I can hear the effect while recording. I guess a better example of this would be tracking guitar direct while using an amp simulator plug-in in your DAW, you'd want to hear the tones that you'd later be committing to so you wouldn't want to turn off software monitoring, but what if you want to use a UAD plug-in on the guitars signal before it reaches the DAW? I guess what I'm asking is - is there a way to use UAD plug-ins in Console so that they're committing to audio while at the same time using plug-ins within your DAW? Sorry for sounding repetitive. Thanks!

      Comment


      • #78






        Quote Originally Posted by thedavecook
        View Post

        Hi Craig! Thank you for this amazing review!



        I guess what I'm asking is - is there a way to use UAD plug-ins in Console so that they're committing to audio while at the same time using plug-ins within your DAW? Sorry for sounding repetitive. Thanks!




        Yes. You can run the plug-ins on the way in and print with those effects, but monitor through the amp sim at the output of the computer. If you didn't want to commit, you could run the UA plug-ins in series with the amp sim within your computer. Either way, though, because you're monitoring through the computer you're giving up the really low latency you get by monitoring solely using the Apollo console.



        Does that answer your question?
        _____________________________________________
        There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

        Comment


        • #79
          Craig,



          Sorry---to clarify, you alluded to live monitoring in your earlier posts. Wanted to hear more about using the apollo in a live performance setting. Some of the plugins have significant latency in normal usage I believe, (ampex) for example. I am curious what plugins are practical to be used for a "live" performance (plugin running on vocal input and plugin on backing track for example, then out to monitor with mix). I am particularly interested in live vocal plugins. (What do you recommend?)



          Also, any thoughts on dealing with the routing limitations? Have you tried anything like soundflower?



          Appreciate your extensive on-going review.

          Comment


          • #80






            Quote Originally Posted by furikuri
            View Post

            Craig,



            Sorry---to clarify, you alluded to live monitoring in your earlier posts. Wanted to hear more about using the apollo in a live performance setting. Some of the plugins have significant latency in normal usage I believe, (ampex) for example. I am curious what plugins are practical to be used for a "live" performance (plugin running on vocal input and plugin on backing track for example, then out to monitor with mix). I am particularly interested in live vocal plugins. (What do you recommend?)




            Okay, but as it involves going through quite a few plug-ins, if you don't mind I won't be quite so rigorous in my testing - it will be more like "nope, don't notice any latency" or "yes, I'm noticing something." I'll use a percussive source, not voice, just to be as mean as possible to UA



            But I must say, I sure wouldn't be one to use a tape emulator on voice...not a fan. Drums, bass, electric piano, bunches of things sound good with tape, however I don't include voice in that category. Another processor hog, the Manley Massive Passive, is also something I really wouldn't use on voice. It's FABULOUS for program material, but for an individual voice, the Pultec Pro works really well for me. However, I must admit I haven't tried a lot of other EQs on my voice, I got into the habit of using the Pultec back when it wasn't vintage gear (yes, I am that old!), and it just always seemed to flatter my voice so it's become my standard of comparison. Obviously, I think UA's emulation is spot on.



            To me a good compressor, gentle EQ, reverb, and perhaps some delay for doubling is pretty much all I use/need. In some live performance contexts I do use processors that create intelligent harmonies...but that's why I have a DigiTech Vocalist and some TC-Helicon Gear








            Also, any thoughts on dealing with the routing limitations? Have you tried anything like soundflower?



            No, it hasn't been a priority for me, there's other stuff I need to check out first. Also, I prefer not to use "external" software unless it's something the manufacturer recommends or at least, approves.








            Appreciate your extensive on-going review.



            Thanks!! Actually for a while, I thought I was going to run out of things to say..."I tried it, it sounds great, it works." But the more I work with it, the more I find.



            I can hardly wait to check out the Windows drivers. Nothing against Mac, of course, it's just I can test more things with my Windows machine. It's more "fully loaded" as it does all my video work.
            _____________________________________________
            There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

            Comment


            • #81






              Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
              View Post

              Yes. You can run the plug-ins on the way in and print with those effects, but monitor through the amp sim at the output of the computer. If you didn't want to commit, you could run the UA plug-ins in series with the amp sim within your computer. Either way, though, because you're monitoring through the computer you're giving up the really low latency you get by monitoring solely using the Apollo console.



              Does that answer your question?




              Yes! Thank you! I've been searching all over Universal Audio's website for the answer to this question, it seems like they've been kind of vague on the topic. For me, the low latency monitoring would be a wonderful feature, but to be able to track through an 1176LN plug-in that sounds like the real deal and commit to audio on the front end is what really interests me.



              Anyhow, UA doesn't really seem to cover running their plug-ins on the way in while monitoring within your DAW, and they don't seem to give any specifics on how this would be done. Would you be able to elaborate, please?



              Thank you!

              Comment


              • #82






                Quote Originally Posted by thedavecook
                View Post

                Anyhow, UA doesn't really seem to cover running their plug-ins on the way in while monitoring within your DAW, and they don't seem to give any specifics on how this would be done. Would you be able to elaborate, please?



                Thank you!




                Sure. It's actually pretty simple; describing it is more complex than actually doing it







                In this situation, there's a mic going into Apollo input 1 (I compressed the console's size so it would fit easily). There are two insert effects, Precision Bus Compressor and Tape Echo. Note that the Insert Effects switch is set to Record, which means that the signal will be routed to the DAW through the effects. So if the DAW is recording, the input signal will be printed with these effects.



                To the console's left, you can see the signal is going into an audio channel in Ableton Live. Meanwhile, toward the very lower left you can just see a teeny bit of the Saturator plug-in within Live, which is processing the input signal. This goes to Live's output, which is to the right of the console.



                Live's output is being sent to outputs 1-2. Remember, Apollo can monitor whatever you send it - input signals from the mixer, and/or output signals from the DAW, which basically appear automatically at Apollo's monitor out if their outputs are assigned to the main out (you can also assign them to the individual hardware outs, but that's not really relevant here). I was monitoring through Headphones patched to headphone output 1, and you'll note that it's switched to listen to the monitor input. As a result, I'll hear outputs 1-2 from Live, which includes the Saturator processing the input signal, through the headphones.



                But the most important aspect here is note the input channel fader, which is all the way down. This prevents the input signal from going to the monitor section, so you don't hear the original input signal - only the one that's coming back out of Live.



                If you start recording in Live, it will record the input's signal as processed by the Precision Bus Compressor and Tape Echo. When you play the track back, the processed audio will play through the Saturator effect, which of course is still inserted within Live.



                So to summarize...



                1. Assign Live's out to Apollo's main out (1-2) so you can hear Live's output. Add whatever processors you want in Live.

                2. Don't monitor the input signal using Apollo, you only want to hear what's coming out of Live.

                3. Make sure the Insert Effects switch is set to record if you want to print with effects.
                _____________________________________________
                There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

                Comment


                • #83






                  Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                  View Post

                  Sure. It's actually pretty simple; describing it is more complex than actually doing it




                  Beautiful! Thank you very much for going into so much detail, Craig! Excellent review, as always!

                  Comment


                  • #84






                    Quote Originally Posted by thedavecook
                    View Post

                    Beautiful! Thank you very much for going into so much detail, Craig! Excellent review, as always!




                    We aim to please
                    _____________________________________________
                    There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

                    Comment


                    • #85






                      Quote Originally Posted by Phil O'Keefe
                      View Post

                      Thank you.



                      Is the price still TBD?



                      Also, is it possible to cascade two Apollos on one computer?




                      Hi Phil,



                      The price of the Thunderbolt option card is almost set but still TBD, look for the announcement soon.



                      As for cascading 2 Apollo's on one computer, we are currently working on Multi-unit support but no official date has been announced yet.
                      Universal Audio
                      Analog Ears. Digital Minds.
                      www.UAudio.com
                      Follow us on Twitter.
                      Find us on Facebook.

                      Comment


                      • #86






                        Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
                        View Post

                        The following screen shot shows the basic idea - you can see the clips (top track direct, lower track through Apollo), the difference in start times between the two clips, and the readout on the left that shows the length (in this case, 3.129ms). Although these views are zoomed way in, I zoomed in pretty close to max when taking the actual measurements.







                        Here are some of the figures I obtained, going from worse-case to best-case. Interestingly, it seemed that monitoring off the HP1 bus setting added another ms of latency or so compared to just using the Mon setting.



                        44.1kHz



                        4.5ms: No plug-ins, HP1 bus, no input compensation (which I believe would likely not be necessary when monitoring)

                        3.1ms: No plug-ins, Mon bus, no input compensation

                        3.6ms: LA1176 and Pultec Pro plug-ins active, Mon bus, no input compensation

                        3.7ms: LA1176 and Pultec Pro plug-ins active, Mon bus, medium input compensation



                        96kHz



                        96kHz gives less latency, as the audio moves through the system at a faster rate.



                        2.3ms: LA1176 and Pultec Pro plug-ins active, HP1 bus, no input compensation (so even at 96kHz, the HP1 bus seems to add a slight additional delay)

                        1.5ms: LA1176 and Pultec Pro plug-ins active, Mon bus, no input compensation



                        It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that 1.5ms is a phenomenal spec. Remember, these represent total delay through all elements of the Apollo monitoring path - input A/D conversion, plug-ins if included, any calculations involved in the console, and output D/A conversion - so you can consider this true, worst-case "round trip" latency. To put it in perspective, if you're playing guitar and monitoring the output at 44.1kHz through the two plug-ins mentioned, it's equivalent to the delay caused by being about 3.5 feet from a speaker (which interestingly enough is pretty much the standard for near-field monitoring). FWIW, I've yet to meet a guitar player standing 3.5 in front of an amp and complaining that the delay in hearing the amp was intolerable




                        Fun test, Craig! We performed very similar tests before launching apollo in order to attain our latency specs. perhaps the one step you would want to try with your rig is make sure that the Octacapture and Sonar are not adding any extra latency (which can happen if either the driver or the DAW have a value that is off. What we did was use a Pro Tools HD system because HD systems have a very calculated way of measuring external delay and completely taking buffers even converter delays out of the equation. Here is how we did it:



                        Setup:

                        1. Route the line out 1 of the HD interface to the line in 1 of the HD interface (or any available I/O on the interface)

                        *This creates an analog I/O loop that we will use to ensure that Pro Tools is not adding any extra delay

                        2. In Pro Tools, make sure that delay compensation is turned on

                        3. In the Pro Tools I/O Setup/Input panel, ensure that the "compensate for Input delays after record pass is checked"

                        4. In the Pro Tools I/O Setup/Output panel, ensure that the "compensate for Output delays after record pass is checked"

                        *Enabling these settings ensures that Pro Tools automatically moves the audio after the record pass to compensate for the known converter delays of their interfaces

                        5. Make 2 mono audio tracks

                        6. Place a tone or transient on Audio Track 1 (we used the built in Signal Generator AudioSuite plug-in

                        7. Route the Output of Audio Track 1 to Bus 1

                        8. Route Audio Track 2's Input to Bus 1

                        9. Record enable Audio Track 2

                        10. Record arm the Pro Tools transport and hit play before the tone

                        11. Zoom in to the wave files (the original tone and the newly recorded tone) - if all was done correctly, the two files should be aligned.



                        Now all you would do is add Apollo into the loop with an extra cable. Taking the Line out of the HD interface into an input on Apollo and then taking an output of Apollo (either the Monitor or Headphone) and route that back to the Line in 1 of the HD Interface. Perform the same test and the distance between the audio files is the latency.



                        In our tests we see better performance than what you measured. Notably at 44.1, were we are seeing 2.9 ms to the headphone bus with no plug-ins and no input delay compensation - and 2.4ms to the Monitor bus in the same scenario. Same at 96k, where we measured 1.1ms with plug-ins to the Monitor bus and 1.4ms to the Headphone bus.



                        Other things that can cause latency (albeit not a ton) is when using upsampled plug-ins (we're talking a few samples). We list which plug-ins add latency in our user guide and as you said, even when loading up all four plug-ins on Apollo, the latency is not detectable.



                        You also touched on another important design detail of Apollo which is the "Input Delay Compensation" feature –*this feature works on two levels. The first is for the console app, when turning the feature on it ensures that all inputs are phase aligned - this is crucial when tracking with plug-ins that have a few extra samples of latency it also ensures that you don't hear any weird phase artifacts when recording multi-channel material (especially drums).



                        The second place where Input Delay Compensation comes into play is in the driver. One design hurdle we overcame was the fact that all DAW software only asks the ASIO/Core Audio driver once what their delay is and since Apollo can have a different delay depending on what plug-ins are instantiated, turning on Input Delay Compensation in the Console adds extra delay to the driver path ahead of time - this can affect users who want to monitor through the DAW so be aware that you will want to keep the setting as low as possible of you plan on monitoring through the DAW but even at the "Low" setting of Apollo's Input Delay Compensation, it is still very usable when used in conjunction with the DAW's monitoring system. Of course, if you use Apollo's Console app to monitor live inputs in conjunction with the DAW output, the Input Delay Compensation setting has no real effect on the latency you hear.



                        -Lev
                        Universal Audio
                        Analog Ears. Digital Minds.
                        www.UAudio.com
                        Follow us on Twitter.
                        Find us on Facebook.

                        Comment


                        • #87






                          Quote Originally Posted by furikuri
                          View Post

                          Can you elaborate on live usage of the Apollo? Which plugs work, which don't?




                          Hey Furikuri and All:



                          We have been getting a ton of inquiries for how to use the product in a live scenario. Here are some tips:



                          DAW Playback:

                          The most simple, you can playback the DAW out of the Monitor outputs, any of the other 8 analog, 2 headphones or 10 digital outputs of Apollo in a live scenario. This can be useful for bands who need their own headphone mixes/guide tracks to stay in sync.



                          Use ADAT as an effects loop from the DAW:

                          Many customers have asked for the ability to stream DAW tracks into the console so they can process through Realtime UAD processing for low latency effects. While this isn't currently available in the product there is a workaround when using the ADAT I/O of Apollo. Basically, using an ADAT cable, route the ADAT out to the ADAT In of Apollo and then route whatever DAW tracks or Virtual instruments to the ADAT outputs from the DAW and those tracks will then show up in the Console app in the ADAT inputs, now you can process those inputs with Realtime UAD plug-ins which is really cool for some of the more performance oriented effects.



                          Use AUX 1 and AUX 2 as a general purpose matrix mixer:

                          The inputs of Apollo automatically route to the Monitor outputs and can be sent to the Headphones and 2 AUX channels. The AUX channels have the ability to route to any of Apollo's outputs (analog or digital). So for live use, you can route anything coming into the inputs to an output and send those signals to a separate location (like a speaker/monitor, headphone amp or effects processor).



                          The AUX's are always stereo but if you want to get 4 mono outputs you can by taking the inputs and hard panning the signals Left and Right. For example, take input 1and pan it hard left. Send input 1 to AUX 1, route AUX 1 to Output 3-4 –*in this scenario input one would only be routed out of output 3.



                          Process live inputs through UAD effects:

                          Of course, you can plug microphones, guitars, keyboards and any other instrument into Apollo's inputs and process them through any of the 50+ UAD effects and send that signal to the front of house, 2 headphones and an additional 2 stereo or 4 mono sources (using the AUXs).



                          Use Apollo as a live console/recorder:

                          Ok, now we're really into the gray area, but we have seen some customers actually using Apollo as a live mixer and recording device for live sound (you would use your DAW as the recorder). The workflow is fairly similar to how it would go in a studio except for using the AUX channels as sends to speaker wedges (monitors) - the mono AUX routing trick i noted above becomes crucial because you would need to save at least 1 AUX for Reverb, leaving the other AUX for 2 mono stage monitors. As we stated, this was not the target workflow when designing the product but we are very excited to see how customers have utilized the product in different workflows!



                          -Lev
                          Universal Audio
                          Analog Ears. Digital Minds.
                          www.UAudio.com
                          Follow us on Twitter.
                          Find us on Facebook.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Great posts Lev, thank you.



                            Concerning the latency test, my assumption was that the latency added by going into the Octa-Capture with two mics would be consistent, as it was connected to a Windows machine while Apollo was working with the Mac, and both mics were being recorded into Sonar. So I figured that any delays or issues would apply to both mics equally.



                            However, this brings up another question...would using FW400 for Apollo make a difference compared to FW800? I've been holding off on an FW800 card but if that makes a difference to more than just number of tracks, I'll get one ASAP. The difference between the specs you got and mine don't really make a practical difference in real-world applications but I know how scrupulous you guys are about doing specs, so given that I don't have an HD system, it would be interesting to find out where the limiting factor is in my setup.



                            The live scenario post is great. I never thought of several of those applications...thanks for chiming in!
                            _____________________________________________
                            There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Hey Craig,



                              Regarding your first point, the thing you would want to try before adding microphones and the type of loop you did is to run a cable out of your interface and back in to see if those files line up first. If the files do line up, then the test is valid by adding Apollo (or any interface) back into the loop – but not all DAWs handle this test perfectly (PT HD just happens to be one that does). Like you said, these types of tests are splitting hairs to a large extent, since either way we are talking about fractions of a millisecond here and there. And overall, the system performs beautifully for adding plug-ins to the input with latency free performance.



                              As for the latency differences between FireWire 400 and 800 – there is no difference in latency. The difference between FireWire 400 and 800 merely affects how much I/O and how many plug-ins you can run simultaneously. Firewire 800 is strongly recommended for both UAD-2 Satellite and Apollo for maximum performance. Either can work on a FireWire 400 bus (because we designed it to accommodate different FireWire busses), but it will be with the compromise of how many plug-ins you can run simultaneously. Our UAD Meter/Control panel application allows you monitor the FireWire resources of your system, so you know when you are coming close to the bandwidth limits.
                              Universal Audio
                              Analog Ears. Digital Minds.
                              www.UAudio.com
                              Follow us on Twitter.
                              Find us on Facebook.

                              Comment


                              • #90






                                Quote Originally Posted by UniversalAudio
                                View Post

                                Regarding your first point, the thing you would want to try before adding microphones and the type of loop you did is to run a cable out of your interface and back in to see if those files line up first.




                                Well since one of the big brains at UA is listening, I will seize the opportunity to educate myself



                                I actually didn't do any type of loop, but may not have emphasized an important point enough. My voice was feeding two mics, one plugged into Apollo, and one plugged into the Octa-Capture (we'll call that mic #2). A third mic, which also went into the Octa-Capture, was listening to headphones plugged into Apollo's headphone jack. The outputs from mics 2 and 3 went directly into the Octa-Capture, which fed a different program on a different computer. There was no looping back from the Octa-Capture to anything.



                                So, my assumption is that any slop in the Octa-Capture, the Windows machine, or Sonar would apply equally to both mics. Otherwise, it would be impossible to mic, say, a drum set with more than one mic and have them be aligned with respect to time.



                                I'm wondering if something else could account for the tiny time differential, like I somehow had one more stage of A/D conversion in there than you did. I don't want to get too hung up on this because the difference between our readings is like the difference between "outstanding" and "even slightly more outstanding," but I'm a curious guy and would like to use this kind of test in the future on other pieces of gear...so if I'm doing something wrong, I should probably find out now before I start getting quoted all over the net



                                Meanwhile, I'm still going to try the test you suggested regarding looping the output back into the input, it sounds like that is a good characteristic to spec out with any interface. And of course, the bottom line is that when singing through Apollo and monitoring myself with headphones, there's no flamming or other distractions.



                                I have one more thought about this, but it's more musical in nature so I'll post it separately to keep any comment streams separate.
                                _____________________________________________
                                There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

                                Comment



                                Working...
                                X