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  • Quote Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr
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    Thanks for all this work Craig....before it is all over, this might turn out to be a pretty scary review....3 different pieces all with a million options, all integrated....I hope they bought you a boat or something.

    This review is taking a lot of work, but it's worth it as I have a personal interest in these products, and damn, they're sweet.

    I outlined a few questions about the dt25 in post #96

    I'll go back and review.

    but I do have a quickie question that is appropriate to your current stage in the review...

    ...small cab mids. Lots of small combos suffer from small cab mids that just overcolor the tone(s) of the amp....sometimes it can be tweaked out, but sometimes it is just a characteristic know...small cabs. Small combos suffer quite often from this which sometimes can be remedied by a head/cab config.

    Your clips (keep em coming!) are great, but it is hard to tell. Sometimes you just gotta be in the room with the amp.

    So what's your take?

    Well, that's pretty of the characteristics of a rig's "sound" is that any cabinet acts as a filter. It's a 12" speaker, which of course won't move as much air as a 15" inch type, but also gives a tighter sound and more highs.

    This is a "mostly open back" cab so amp placement makes a difference, too. Raising the amp, or a slight tilt-back, makes it harder to reflect waves off the floor in front of the amp and you'll hear a bit more low end.

    I feel the clips do sound very much like the amp, were your ears to be a few inches from the speaker . As you may know if you read my articles, my biggest problem with amp sims is that they don't model a guitar amp sitting in a room, they model a microphone listening to a guitar amp. "Air" and miking options can help with that, but personally, I like to create my own "room" for the amp sim sound and then it really sounds "right" to my ears.

    I can try doing some clips with room mics later on in the review that convey (as closely as possible) what the amp sounds like to me when I'm standing in the room. Meanwhile, my subjective take is that the mids have a little more low end than usual, and the highs are very easily tweakable with the tone stack.
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    • Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
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      Meanwhile, my subjective take is that the mids have a little more low end than usual, and the highs are very easily tweakable with the tone stack.

      Tks, chief.
      "Be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work" - Gustave Flaubert


      • Thanks for looking into this

        Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
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        First of all, remember that the levels among pickups aren't matched - they model the original output levels, so some settings will definitely be softer than others. However, that's not the whole story.

        Yes, I get that different models will have different output levels. This is definitely not the phenomenon that I am discussing. The issue is that, at least for some models (e.g. the different positions in the Spank bank), the level is lower upon first switching to that model, as compared to after hitting your first transient after the switch. Hopefully, I have made this clear in my description, it is hopefully obvious in the file I posted, and it is hopefully what you mean by "That's not the whole story".

        Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
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        I tried to replicate your results, and found that some models act as you describe, but others don't. ...

        Now, try this. Select Chime ...

        Try the model rotation experiment I just described, then try flicking the pickup selector with the Chime and Lester models, and let me know if you hear what I hear.

        I am not at the guitar at the moment, but I will certainly try the experiments you suggest and post my results. I did notice that some changes exhibited the issue, and others were at least not so apparent. I thought the Spank would be the best to demonstrate the issue, as it is the only set of models based upon the same guitar for all 5 (I have a -69, not the -59 with its different switching) positions. As such, there would be no differences in guitar being modeled from position to position.

        Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
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        I suspect this may have to do with flushing parameter changes before the next sound is loaded, but that's something Line 6 would need to answer.

        And I certainly hope they do....

        Quote Originally Posted by Anderton
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        This is not the kind of thing I would notice normally, as over the years I've gotten into the habit of switching any pickups on any guitar during a pause to eliminate any possibility of clicks, especially given that I often run into boxes with high gain that would tend to accentuate any clicks.

        My technique currently does not allow this. It may be because I have not developed the necessary precision, and it may be because I am overburdened being the only melodic/harmonic instrument, singing, and running sound all at once. However, there are still other use cases where this is a problem. How about covering Hendrix's Voodoo Chile with its PU selector switching dives?

        IOW, I'd still really like Line 6 to take a look at fixing this issue when they get the engineering bandwidth.


        • Quote Originally Posted by jbreher
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          I am not at the guitar at the moment, but I will certainly try the experiments you suggest and post my results. I did notice that some changes exhibited the issue, and others were at least not so apparent.

          When you get a chance, let me know if you find the same results I did: Chime represented what you heard the most clearly, while some models did not exhibit this behavior.

          Once we have something repeatable, I'll ping Line 6 and ask them to comment on whether this is something that can be fixed, or an inherent part of creating certain models as it does seem to relate to only certain models. With other models, the only change in sound I experienced is what you would normally expect from switching pickups.

          But the most important thing to check is whether, if you duplicate my suggested experiments, you get the same results. That will likely give Line 6 the data it needs to comment.
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          • A friend of mine wanted to come over and play some this weekend, so I grabbed one from Amazon, it will be here tomorrow. It was pretty much a no brainer as it will complete my dream rig. I'm pretty excited about about it.

            I've been playing (poorly) for 25 years and never owned a tube amp. The closest I had was an ADA MP1 preamp. If I have to choose between versatility and tubes, versatility is going to win every time, but if I don't have to choose...


            • These examples spotlight Voicing positions III and IV, but follow the same ground rules as the examples for Voicing positions I and II: In each example the first riff is played with the British Crunch control settings, the second with the Classic American Clean settings, the third with the Class A Chime settings, and the fourth with the Modern High-Gain settings.

              Listen to the Voicing III example. The British Crunch settings with Voicing Switch position III gives a brash, 60s pop guitar sound. The Classic Clean setting is very sweet, while the Class A Chime sound is a little more laid-back. The Modern High Gain setting is bright and very crunchy, but lends itself very well to tailoring with the tone controls. In fact generally speaking, I'd say that the more gain you use, you have a paradox: It's harder to get a good sound just by "spinning the dials" but if you put a little care into adjusting the controls, you can get some distortion sounds that manage to be both rich and defined.

              One aspect of the DT25 is that there is a characteristic "definition" to the sound, with a certain amount of detail. The sound has a tendency toward "tightness," not "mushiness." I think the examples convey this relatively well.

              Now listen to the Voicing IV example. This is the one to dial in when you want distortion. The British Crunch sound is severely crunchy, and I love the way the feedback comes in at the end. I wasn't as much a fan of the Classic Clean sound, as it seemed there was more intermodulation distortion. The Class A Chime is a little darker but also richer and thicker; the audio example is somewhat unflattering, because this sound can really come alive with a little tweaking - ditto the Modern High-Gain settings.

              So to summarize the rhythm sounds, I'd say that...

              The Clean sounds are exceptional - the DT25 can sound like a kind of super-Twin, with a sparkling, defined, tight sound that is a total treat. As you'll hear when we fire up the HD500, the combination of carefully distorted HD500 sounds with clean DT25 can make some excellent timbres. It may seem illogical ("dude, you have a tube amp, why aren't you distorting with the tubes?!?") but in a way, this is like using the amp to "sand off" the rough edges of the modeling. They complement each other well.

              The higher-gain sounds cover the spectrum from thick and rich to brash and crunchy, although it takes a little more work to dial in the perfect sound. Whether you want a vintage Who or Kinks type rhythm guitar sound, or really turn up the drive for a more modern high-gain tone, you can have it. Bear in mind that the audio examples are the DT25 at its most naked - like those pictures you see of models without makeup, but they still look great . I didn't even include the built-in reverb, but I felt that the most raw, basic sounds are also the most truthful with respect to conveying the amp's essence. So if you hear a sparkle to the clean sounds, or richness to the distortion, that's not me tweaking or playing in the studio - it's the amp.

              I'm both surprised and pleased that no one has asked "Yeah, but does it sound EXACTLY like an AC-30?" Surprised, because I'm glad people have turned the corner from being interested only in emulation into evaluating an amp on its own terms, and pleased because I don't have too many amps here for direct, A-B comparisons. However, I've logged moire hours than I'd care to admit over the years with Marshall, Vox, Fender, Orange, Peavey, and other amps, both in the studio and in terms of doing emulation work. The DT25 can get the sound of iconic amps, but more importantly, it can go beyond those sounds into different territories you can't get with a single amp.

              I really like this amp. I'll be very interested for dramey's report when he gets his amp. Oh, and one other thing: So far I've been evaluating the DT25 as an amp, and not giving it any props because of the linkage with the HD500. This is because I'm sure some people will just want the amp, as I'm equally sure some people will just want the Variax. But suffice it to say that the HD500 integration is indeed a big deal, as we'll find out during the course of the review.

              Next we'll get into some audio example with leads, and then, investigate some of the other features (like the reverb and low-power mode).
              CHECK IT OUT: Lilianna!, my latest song, is now streamable from YouTube.

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              • Hi Forum folks! I re- vamped most of my Pod HD 500 Presets that I put on so that they would be more appropriate for Dream Rigs. I've discovered that full amp models can sound ok at low volumes but if you are gigging at higher volumes- Preamp models only sound much better, also under those circumstances I suggest dump the cab & mic models too, so that your DT amps or tube power amps and cabs cover that aspect of sound. And, you also get the added benefit of saving DSP on the dual amp presets.

                Dream Rig presets really sound better going out to 2 amps- especially for dual amp pathway presets and for stereo effects. If you have only 1 DT amp (using L6 link for changing class A/ AB, Triode/ Pentode and NFL Topology), panned to one side. then use an unbalanced main out to go to the power amp In of another tube amp, pan to the other side. This will maintain stereo for dual amps/ Efx. If no DT amps then at least try your unbalanced outs to Power amp In's of 2 tube amps.

                Pod HD can output 2 amp models simultaneously but DT amps can only do 1 amp model/ topology/ class etc at a time (effectively). Hence 2 amps is the way to go for rich tone/ stereo with Dream Rigs. I set Pod HD Output for Combo Power Amp for my set-up. Best would be 2 DT amps, but it is necessary to go out to 2 amps anyway to hear the fullness of the dual amp presets. they also seem to be the most interesting tonally in the Dream Rig universe. Yes, I realize you can kind of cram some of the 2 amp information into 1 amp, but that is a discussion for another day.

                Please feel free to pinch any of the presets I put up on I am listed under DrFunk there. Use them as a starting point for your own patches and tweak away to your heart's content. I left a good variety of styles and some acoustic presets to try which may save you having to go to the house PA as they don't sound bad thru the DT amps since they use pre-amps only and usually no cab models.

                Also you can try real electro-acoustics thru these or use the modelled JTV acoustics which are included in the patches. Strumming, acoustic leads and fingerpicking seem to work on these presets... but you can still have the option to go the House PA route if they are not realistic enough for your taste. See the recent Sean Halley Line 6 Video if you want to know how to do that.

       for Sean Halley's video on dual path setup for electrics to DT amps and acoustics out to House PA.

       Presets for Line 6's Customtone

                for electric and acoustic patches as well as dual amp setups for JTV guitars/ Pod HD 500/ DT amps (The Dream Rig)

                Have Fun with them!



                • Hey Dr. Funky!! Thanks again for your contributions to the thread.

                  Damn, this is a fun review...I had just gotten a Codoba nylon string guitar from Musician's Friend prior to starting this review, and I expected to be logging a lot of time with it. Ha! Try putting down a Variax + DT25 to play something else. But on the bright side, my daughter is getting to play a lot of nylon string guitar
                  CHECK IT OUT: Lilianna!, my latest song, is now streamable from YouTube.

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                  • Hey Craig, I hear that!!!

                    Putting down a James Tyler Variax/ Pod HD/ and DT amp(s) is damn near impossible!

                    We are all obsessed with tone... I have to say, that I am both surprised and embarassed that my tone is so delicious with this Dream Rig into stereo amps. I am really getting the best tone of my entire life... Not only that- it is painfully obvious that this is the most versatile and yet the simplest setup I have ever used, and it turns out to be the best gear purchase I have ever made!...also, I can still use any of my cool pedals and effects thru the programmable Efx loops as well as play my strats and acoustics thru the system... I can just get lost in the tonal possibilities!

                    But, pretty much like you, I don't seem to have time for anything else. When you put the JTV into a Pod HD and DT amp(s) it is pretty mesmerizing! If you get a chance Craig, check out some of the new acoustic patches I've up- loaded which may allow you to be self contained within the Dream rig. The Presets that come with the Pod HD do not seem very musically useful or practical for players.

                    The most surprising thing I found in the sounds from the Dream Rig- are the dual Amp presets of which I have just left an ample taste of downloadable examples to try. These cannot be played thru a single amp so use your DT (thru L6 link) and the PowerAmp in of any other tube amp.

                    As I only have 1 DT amp at this time, this is the way to go for me. Then DT (thru L6 link) will change class, triode/ pentode and NFL topology of Amp A appropriately which will be complimented by hearing the other amp in the preset coming out of the other tube amp setup. It will still sound very musical with cool stereo lending something interesting to the tone. Of course owning 2 DT amps would be ideal... But we have what we have, right?

                    Remember DT amps can only play one amp model/ class/ NFL topology at a time (effectively)- so to really hear a dual amp preset from the Pod HD- output to 2 amps is necessary. But the reward in tone is so great, you owe it to yourself to at least try this kind of set-up and make your own decision.

                    I am so delighted by my sound now, and I have only scratched the surface of the possibilities here... Really having FUN sharing this with everyone! Please forgive all the superlatives. I just can't help it. My final evidence for proving all of this to be correct (and is the most compelling), is my wife asking me where I have been for the last month?!!...And the stern warning from Her NOT to buy any more Line 6 gear! So, this is the fool-proof way of knowing...This has got to be GOOD!!! ....And, at least your daughter comes away from all this with lots of unexpected time on the Nylon string guitar! What Fun! I mean isn't that what it is All about? and why we play music in the first place...


                    • It showed up an hour ago (gotta love Amazon). First impression: Wow, it's a lot smaller and lighter than the Vetta. Second impression: Wow, just wow. I already like it a lot more than the Vetta. My only disappointment so far is the lack of Variax input on the amp, but it's not like I'm going to be playing it much without the HD 500 in front of it, so not a huge deal.

                      In fact I'm going to plug that in now.


                      • The more I play my DT25 (head and cab), the more I love it. It is through the hd500, but I never craved to play my guitar when I just had the hd500. I spent more time tweaking without the amp, struggling to be happy with a patch, but now, through the amp, I just turn them on, pull up an amp and blammo!, awesome tone. I'm really impressed with the low volume mode, too. I thought it would sound compressed or something, but wow, it feels really live and almost mimics the full volume mode. It's lucky because whenever I play on full volume, I end up with sore ears!

                        Craig, I found your approach to demoing the amp interesting. I had not thought to explore the sounds by cycling through the voicings without changing the class or pentode/triode. I suppose I had always considered that Line 6 had matched up the voicings with those other settings. With the hd500, it automatically selects the 'most appropriate' topology, etc. I guess what the modelled amp would have been. Also, my brain just thinks, 'amp first then tweak'. I am so glad you did it the way you did. It opens up my mind yet again to how I could approach this set up in a new way. That's what you buy with this stuff, zillions of options, but not so many that you can't get a good sound without hours of tweaking.

                        The addition of the dt25 to the hd500 has taken a powerful, yet complicated, piece of gear into an awesome, easy to use, fun to play rig. I am sure this is the experience of the dt25 by itself. I haven't bothered to try. Maybe I should have prefaced this post with the fact that I had no really good way of monitoring the hd500 before the dt25 but I'm not sure that is colouring my opinion of the amp. I love it.


                        • That's almost exactly my experience too Henry. I was mostly using the HD500 as a way to interface the Variax with the computer. I downloaded a few patches, but didn't do much tweaking of my own. Now that I have the amp, I'm planing on spending all day working on patches.


                          • I love the plexi sounds in the POD HD, its like my favourite amp in there for high gain, which is partly because its simulating the sound of a plexi at full bore, which is pretty much suicidal in real life.

                            I played a DT25 today and I really liked it, but the british crunch setting didnt seem to have quite the extremes of high gain, I suppose because as its a real amp you need to literally crank it to get those sounds.

                            Nonetheless, I didnt get much change to mess with the pentode/triode and class a/ab switches, with some tweaking can you get fat, high gain marshall sounds from the dt25 alone?


                            • I'm pretty sure voicing II is the 'Marshall' sound but I think it is based on the Park 75. I could be wrong. It's not super gain heavy but maybe with a bit of tweaking, crank the gain and volume and control the overall level with the master volume. Otherwise, voicing IV is modern high gain, unofficially the Mesa Boogie Dual Rec, or "tread plate" as it's called in the hd500. Not exactly Marshall territory but with a little tweaking of eq you might get something more gainy.

                              Edit: here is the listing of voicings and with modelled amp names

                              I: 1965 Fender Twin Reverb Vibrato channel

                              II: 1971 Park 75

                              III: 1967 Vox AC30 with Top Boost

                              IV: 2001 Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier Solo


                              • Yeah I use the POD HD already, the "plexi" and "park 75" models are practically the same thing, albeit with a slightly different top end. I've heard on other forums that the POD HD park preamp and the DT25s are identical (although I dont know whether its the "normal" or "bright" one modeled.)

                                That's cool, I like those models, the issue is that what makes them sound GREAT is the fact that the HD is modelling them as if they had a poweramp blasting at full bore, whereas if you switch to just the pre's its comparatively wimpy.

                                I guess what I'm asking then is whether you can get "full bore" from the dt 25s power section at relatively low volumes using the pentode/triode/ and class a/ab switches.

                                I dont like Mesa style gain.