Washburn WI45 WI66 multi-ply binding question

[Kahines]

I have a few WI45 & WI66 projects and wanting to ask if anyone has stripped the finish from the bodies?

 

If so, are the black lines in the multi-ply binding made into the plastic binding or is it a painted like pinstripes on top?

 

Please answer only if you have accurate knowledge firsthand.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Kenneth

 

 

 

Also, always looking to buy any Washburn Idol series guitars.

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Binding is binding. There's nothing unique about those guitars over others.

 

The answer to your question is they are not painted pin stripes. The bindings on those guitars are laminated layers of black and white plastic melted together into a single binding, similar to the way they make multi layered pick guards. http://www.allparts.com/LT-1436-033-Black-White-Black-Binding-06-inch_p_2162.html

 

Some higher end guitars may have fancier layering of binding materials applied. Many acoustic guitars have some really fine artwork done with binding and inlays, but the Washburn's are just multi layer stuff.

 

They do make for a difficult refinishing on painted guitars by the way. I've done several and in some cases I just painted over because they are such a hassle to deal with taping them off and preventing the paint from covering the binding then clear coating the binding when you do the paint. There's allot more wet sanding needed to keep the layers smooth. The best way is to use a spray gun and thin your mixtre towards the end so you have a high percentage of lacquer thinner towards the end. This essentially melts the tape lines to remove them so you aren't trying to sand the paint and trim lines smooth.

[Kahines]

Thanks for your reply.

 

I have 30 plus Washburn WI-45 & WI-66 guitars and most of the black lines in the cream binding has thickness variations. That is the main reason of asking my question.

 

I have about 5 that I plan on stripping the tops on for custom work. Just haven't took the plunge on starting more projects.

 

I plan on hand scraping the bindings after color coating or staining.

[WRGKMC]

Thanks for your reply.

 

I have 30 plus Washburn WI-45 & WI-66 guitars and most of the black lines in the cream binding has thickness variations. That is the main reason of asking my question.

 

I have about 5 that I plan on stripping the tops on for custom work. Just haven't took the plunge on starting more projects.

 

I plan on hand scraping the bindings after color coating or staining.

 

The variations are likely caused by the way the laminations were melted and pressed together. Plastic can be heated to meld together in sheets then rolled like cookie dough through larger rollers. You can also use lacquer thinners to bind the plastics together after they are hard and cool. This essentially melts the plastics chemically to bind them and they harden after the vapors dissipate.

 

You can sand the binding which is what I suggest instead of scraping it. If the guitars are lacquered, then the lacquer comes off with paint remover. If they are poly finishes, god help you. You have a ball busting job ahead of you trying to get that stuff completely off down to the wood. You only have two choices with poly. Heat gun or sanding. You cant use a heat gun on the finish over the binding because it will melt quicker then the poly does so you're stuck with sanding those areas.

 

Once you get below the poly you still have to get through the primer which is hard as glass and can only be sanded. This primer sinks deep into the wood making staining impossible unless you take enough wood off to get past the saturation point. I will note I destroyed a strat body once trying to get down to the wood. The finish was so thick it made the neck pocket wider. when I got down to the wood and reinstalled the neck the neck overhung the pocket by a few millimeters. I eventually used epoxy to expand that area and repainted the guitar to hide it, but I would have been better off just leaving the thing alone. Live and learn. That guitar was the test bed for every mod and experiment I could think of and rarely play it any more. I did buy a new neck for it recently and have it on my to do list to make it into a good player again.

 

One thing to note. If these instruments are solid painted finishes, the chances are, they were painted because the wood below had grain flaws that needed to be hidden. Only the choicest woods have natural finishes and they are usually better sounding instruments because they do have quality grained woods. Painted guitars can have anything below including unmatched bookends, knot holes, Bondo, plywood wood filler you name it.

 

Staining is a tricky thing to do. You have to have raw wood and take into account the color of the wood. For example, a maple top may look orange with a red stain, or look green with a blue because of the maples yellow color. You may want to think about tinted lacquers instead of staining. (which most factory guitars use) You can use a combination too but you do have to know your chemical combinations. We had a guy post here about a year ago who attempted to use acrylics over a water based stain capped off with lacquer. It was a disaster.

 

Main thing is you have Oil, Alcohol, Poly, and water based finishes. If you start with one you want to stick with it from beginning to end. A few can be used together. You have no problem applying lacquer over shellac. Both are resin based and melt together. Poly over lacquer doesn't work. It will peel right off the lacquer like sunburned skin. Tung oil will work over lacquer, but lacquer over Tung oil or poly chips away easily and fractures like an eggshell and chips off when you ding it.

 

Main thing is to read the can of the stuff you're using. If you know your basics you shouldn't have problems using different manufacturers products together, however, many manufacturers blend the chemicals so things like primers, paints and finishes will only work together as a 3 part system. Its one of the ways they lock you into using their products. Luckily, guitar finishes are still mostly basic stuff which still works great.

 

Poly is the hardest to work with because it goes on in layers like an onion. In the factory they apply it in a continuous coat so it remains transparent. Problem with poly is it cant have transparent repairs once its damaged. Its a one shot finish that's very durable but cant be repaired like lacquer which can have transparent repairs done. Lacquer can be over sprayed and the new finish melts into the old making one thick finish from many layers. Flaws can be buffed out, it is very durable and it looks and feels nice.

 

Oils like Tung oil can have oil stains mixed in to tint it. Tung oil often contains varnishes which are oil based and is very easy to apply. It makes for an extremely durable finish and you can build it up for a thick high gloss finish. It does yellow the wood so again, you have to take that into account.

 

Be sure to stay away from Enamil paints. Most are oil based and can take many years to fully cure. I made a mistake myself of trying it once and even years later it stuck to my guitar stand and left marks in the finish. Bad stuff, plus its designed to resist anything from sticking to it. They make water based enamels for doors and bathrooms, places where you don't want dirt to stick. Oil based enamels are mostly for metal and resist corrosion.

 

There's allot more to it of course, and I'm not sure how much refinishing work you've done. If you're a beginner, read all you can on the topic as well as sites on furniture and antique refinishing. The more you read the better prepared you'll be. My folks were into restoring antiques from before I was born so I was exposed to it all my life and often recruited to strip and sand woods and apply finishes. I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't have a coating of linseed oil in my veins. I haven't used it in 30 years but I still remember its smell. My father owned a pain store long ago so I got to know my basics.

 

The actual work is messy and sticky. I avoid it whenever possible. I do it on new builds, but I'd rather patch a damaged finish when I can because its very difficult to get a refinish close to a factory finish. The other item is its not cheap to do. When you include the chemicals, sand papers and tools to do it right you're looking at about $100 a guitar for materials along. When you add in the labor, it can be many times that amount. You cant rush it either, you have to take things step by step and any short cuts will result in a botched job which often times forces you to start over.

[Mr Temporary]

Scraping isn't difficult as long as it's sharp. Your basic single edge razor blade will work OK. A small scraper that's been honed and burnished works better, but there is a slight learning curve on the sharpening process.

[Kahines]

Thank you for taking the to write a very in depth reply.

 

I appreciate your interest in helping fellow DIY peers.

 

 

A little background info on myself. I grew up with a dad working his whole life in manufacturing furniture and as a little kid, did a lot of wood finishing and helping him maintain a furniture store. Most everything we sold was sample peices purchased with missing parts or damaged. Side note, I still sleep in the bed (along with the complete bedroom suite made of ash and wicker) I finished from bare wood 30 years ago when I was 20 years old in medium sheen lacquer.

 

I made my first guitar, a flying vee guitar body by hand except the neck in the 80's. Hand carved cavities and hand rubbed lacquer.

 

 

I had a body shop for all of the 90's and painted over 1000 cars, until changing careers in 1998 to fulltime computer networking/programming desk job to get away from paint and dust.

 

I did a couple snakeskin (using airbrush and fishing net) and one off pearl paint jobs in polyurethane and urethane in the early 90's on some of my own guitars. They have been passed down to my kids.

 

For the last 15 years, I produced thousands of hand thermoformed acrylic plastic window sets and hand laid fiberglass parts for Pontiac Fiero. I still have over 20 complete Pontiac Fieros.

 

Currently working for the past 8 years for a large PVC plastic extrusion company.

 

So I have a lot of hands on experience in a lot of different areas. Wood, plastic, metals and composites.

 

 

Along the way I have collected way too many guitars and now have over 100 acoustic and electrics. I have around 60 Washburns, including a quite a few one off Custom Shop pieces and prototypes. I have one wall of my muisc dungeon plastered with new unplayed Gibson Explorers and Flying V's in solid white and solid black. So I have close to 30 earmarked as projects. I have collected some nice cnc cut Idol bodies (mahogany with flame caps) from the old Washburn Custom Shop when they cleared out inventory during the US Music buyout.

 

 

I plan on sharing my future projects here as they unfold.

[WRGKMC]

That's great. Sounds like you been around and know about the items I posted.

[Kahines]

Here is a picture of the Washburn WI-45 Honey Burst with the top clearcoat and the outside shaded area stripped. I wiped it down with mineral spirits to see what it will look like at this level. I believe I will stop here and finish it with a matte topcoat.

[WRGKMC]

That's a nice looking top on that one.