Members thop Posted July 23, 2011 Members Share Posted July 23, 2011 I've been looking at different wiring configurations and I notice that on Gibsons, the tone cap goes directly from the tone pot to the volume pot. On a lot of cheaper guitars with the green caps, they seem to be soldered to the tone's connection point, then to the bottom of the tone pot, then another connection is used between the tone and volume pots. Is there a reason for this? Does a certain method work better for different types of caps? Hope everyone understands what I'm talking about. I had trouble finding a picture online, but I can take one of my cheap chinese LP copy if you need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Roberts Posted July 23, 2011 Members Share Posted July 23, 2011 The "Gibson style" wiring you're seeing is using one leg of the cap for a ground wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thop Posted July 24, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2011 I know that soldering to the bottom of the pot is grounding it. I'm just curious if there is any reason or tonal difference that some wiring schematics have the go directly from connection port to connection port and some have the cap connected to the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Roberts Posted July 24, 2011 Members Share Posted July 24, 2011 So, are you asking why there are 2 tone caps in a LP style guitar? Or why both tone pots share a cap on a Strat style guitar? Or am I still completely misunderstanding your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 24, 2011 Members Share Posted July 24, 2011 He's asking is the placement in the circuit affects the tone. For all intents and purposes, no. It has no tonal differences, But there are a few things to keep in mind. The shorter any exposed hot wires in a guitar body, including the cap, the less chance of hum. The other item is even though a cap in non polarized, it does have a + and - connection and it can affect the tone ans add additional hum a bit. Maybe not enough for it to be heard by most ears, but remember a guitar chainbeginning at the pickups, through the effects boxes amp and speaker affect the sound collectively. The hot anode is supposed to go the the center of the cap foil, the negative goes to the outer wrappings. is its connected the other way around, the outer foil would be hot and more susceptable to hum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thop Posted July 24, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2011 Yeah, I was asking what the differences are between these setups: I notice that for some reason I see the first setup with the cap connected to ground on cheaper guitars that use those green chiclet caps and higher end guitars use the second setup. How do I tell which end of the cap is + or -? I'm finishing my first full rewire later this week since my new alpha pots arrived. I have 2 .047 caps I'm going to use for them but Im not home so I don't have them handy to check the markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 25, 2011 Members Share Posted July 25, 2011 Its just a matter of convience weather the cap comes before the variable resistor (pot) ot after, but the caps laying on top of the pot canshelps with the shielding for less hum. Its good work habits to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goosefartfan Posted July 25, 2011 Members Share Posted July 25, 2011 check out the 50's gibson LP wiring. I really liked it after I switched from the modern style. Much clearer neck pickup. I also changed cap values, it also helped. All of the above is subject to your own taste and ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thop Posted July 25, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 25, 2011 I saw an amazing YouTube video where a guy plays his epiphone casino with various caps and measures the frequencies emitted. You can really hear the differences. He has a whole series on stuff like that, really opened my eyes to what difference a cap can make. Maybe I should post some links in the forum, the guy is really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 25, 2011 Members Share Posted July 25, 2011 Google up Gibson Varitone. Its a very old gimick that dates back to 1959 on gibsons as a passive EQ.and 6 way rotary switch which has been rereleased on the night hawks. If you look at the schematic here, http://www.blueshawk.info/official_gibson_schematic.htm Heres more on it,http://www.rootwerx.com/music/electronics/varitone/default.htm You'll see the 1.5 henry coil in series with the caps. The coil makes it and actual LRC filter that filters trebble, bass and mids and gives you "Real" notch filters in tone like an actual passive EQ does vs just low pass filtering with cap alone. You can buy the assembled kits such as here. http://www.torresamps.com/guitar_modification_kits.htmYou want the deluxe one with the coil though. Without the coilk all you have is a simple capacitence decade box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Roberts Posted July 28, 2011 Members Share Posted July 28, 2011 I don't think the two wiring diagrams you're referring to would result in any difference in tone. I also don't think that there's any correlation to which type of wiring is used based on the type of cap, it's probably just a coincidence or they're coming from the same factory - but I don't know that for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ivo215 Posted July 30, 2011 Members Share Posted July 30, 2011 The only difference in the tone you can produce by wiring it different is in the treble bleed.When you roll off the volume, the resistance of the tone pot is also lowered (wired parallel) and you also roll off the high tones. Many people break their heads over the right high-pass filter to go on the volume pot, to counter the treble bleed.But there's a way to wire the caps to the tone pots that prevents any treble bleed in the first place. Take the Seymour Duncan wiring scheme, and ground the lugs on both tone pots that are still unused.That way you'll never get any treble bleed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thop Posted August 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 11, 2011 Finally got everything wired in, but my tone pots still sound like crap. They're brand new alpha minis, I've got a .047 ceramic cap on each. Any idea why they have almost no noticeable effect? BTW what effect does soldering the connection to different tabs have? I noticed that when I connected my lead to the wrong tab of the volume pot by accident, the direction to turn the knob reversed (it became counter clockwise = more volume). On the tone knob I tried moving the connection from the side tab to the middle tab and back hoping to hear some difference, and soldered the cap to different tabs as well. Nothing seemed to make it any more articulate. Did I get some fake alphas? Wrong size cap? Did I bake my pots spending forever trying to solder them properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katillac Posted August 11, 2011 Members Share Posted August 11, 2011 Finally got everything wired in, but my tone pots still sound like crap. They're brand new alpha minis, I've got a .047 ceramic cap on each. Any idea why they have almost no noticeable effect? BTW what effect does soldering the connection to different tabs have? I noticed that when I connected my lead to the wrong tab of the volume pot by accident, the direction to turn the knob reversed (it became counter clockwise = more volume). On the tone knob I tried moving the connection from the side tab to the middle tab and back hoping to hear some difference, and soldered the cap to different tabs as well. Nothing seemed to make it any more articulate. Did I get some fake alphas? Wrong size cap? Did I bake my pots spending forever trying to solder them properly? When you get the + and - backwards, as you discovered, it makes the pot backwards. There are pots that are made to be wired up the same way as "normal" but have a reverse taper and are sold as pots for left-hand guitar use. Other people just wire the regular pots the way you did. What wattage is your soldering iron? You can overheat them. It usually takes a fair bit to nuke a pot, but I've seen it done. A lot of people don't even clean the surface of the pot case and that doesn't help. I scuff mine with sandpaper (usually 100 grit) then clean them with alcohol before soldering on them. I've done connections to the backs of pots using a 20-watt iron (my 60-watt was on loan to a friend), but I used a small smudge of flux from a flux pen to help. The best way is to use an iron with a higher wattage (over 40 watts) and work fast. Using a lower-wattage iron makes you have to hold the tip on surfaces longer, and heat can damage parts. Using the right solder is necessary, too. I've seen people use plumbing solder, or rosin-core solder that's way too thick for the wattage of their iron and what they need for making a connection. As for the other question on which way is which for non-polar capacitors, if I recall correctly, it should be to treat the leg of the cap that's to the left of the writing as positive. For example, a "chiclet" cap or ceramic cap that has the writing on one side, with the writing facing you, the input side is to the left. In a capacitor that has legs like a typical resistor, hold the cap to where the writing is right side up and the leg to the left is the input. At least I think that's the way it goes. Not crucial, but I try to make that a practice and I haven't soldered in a while and am not 100% sure of that directional thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thop Posted August 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 11, 2011 I've used mostly 30 or 40 watt irons. I've gone thru about 4 or 5 this summe because I tend to smash them to pieces in frustration. I finally invested in some high quality solder and it seems to have almost solved my problem so hopefully my rage will not be brought out as often. I'm installing two more of the same pots in another guitar this weekend I'll see how they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mymindsok Posted August 11, 2011 Members Share Posted August 11, 2011 I've used mostly 30 or 40 watt irons. I've gone thru about 4 or 5 this summe because I tend to smash them to pieces in frustration. I finally invested in some high quality solder and it seems to have almost solved my problem so hopefully my rage will not be brought out as often. SNIP.... You might want to think about investing $50 0r $60 in a temp controlled soldering station. Those things can make soldering much less of a chore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katillac Posted August 11, 2011 Members Share Posted August 11, 2011 You might want to think about investing $50 0r $60 in a temp controlled soldering station. Those things can make soldering much less of a chore! This ^^^ Well worth the investment if you even think you'll ever do more soldering. I'm seriously thinking about buying another one as a backup, just in case mine ever fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goosefartfan Posted August 11, 2011 Members Share Posted August 11, 2011 You might want to think about investing $50 0r $60 in a temp controlled soldering station. Those things can make soldering much less of a chore! I've thought about that......how do you know what temp to set it on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thop Posted August 12, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2011 This new solder is working wonders for me. Im usin a $7 radio shack pencil and I've gotten more soldering work done in the past 24 hrs than I have in the past 3 weeks. I had no idea it could make this much difference, of course looking back it should've been obvious. I even left my iron plugged in overnight by accident, came back to it and soldered some more. I figure I'll keep this set up and just replace the tips when it needs be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katillac Posted August 12, 2011 Members Share Posted August 12, 2011 I've thought about that......how do you know what temp to set it on? Depending on the solder station, some include instructions. Mine didn't, so I just farted around with the settings. Now, I'll start out right about where I feel it should be for the gauge of wires I'm soldering (or whatever) and make fine adjustments where needed. I've gone from doing big stuff to little stuff, turning down the knob and using my tip tinner to cool the tip. Going the other direction, I just have to wait a minute or two for the iron to reach a higher heat. I suggested this to thop in another thread: practice. Use scrap stuff. Get to know your iron. It's like playing guitar: you have to practice to keep your skills up to par. I need to do that within the next day or two, as it's time to start wiring my project guitar. I have used capacitors, resistors and other crap to use on pieces of project boards (I buy bulk 3x5 boards and cut them to size, saving the scraps). Usually, I just need to solder a few things and I'm back in the saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goosefartfan Posted August 14, 2011 Members Share Posted August 14, 2011 Depending on the solder station, some include instructions. Mine didn't, so I just farted around with the settings. Now, I'll start out right about where I feel it should be for the gauge of wires I'm soldering (or whatever) and make fine adjustments where needed. I've gone from doing big stuff to little stuff, turning down the knob and using my tip tinner to cool the tip. Going the other direction, I just have to wait a minute or two for the iron to reach a higher heat. I suggested this to thop in another thread: practice. Use scrap stuff. Get to know your iron. It's like playing guitar: you have to practice to keep your skills up to par. I need to do that within the next day or two, as it's time to start wiring my project guitar. I have used capacitors, resistors and other crap to use on pieces of project boards (I buy bulk 3x5 boards and cut them to size, saving the scraps). Usually, I just need to solder a few things and I'm back in the saddle. I hear that about practicing, but for me soldering is always a pain in the ass. The solder I have is very thin rosin core. any other clues about what is quality solder? where to buy it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yanktar Posted August 14, 2011 Members Share Posted August 14, 2011 Hi, I'm new here and new to soldering guitar wiring, but I've done a bit with home audio, including vintage monoblock and stereo tube amps. An adjustable solder station is definitely the way to go if you can manage to get one. A "too hot" iron is actually easier to work with than a "too cool" iron for reasons someone above mentioned. Still, you get a feel for what is ideal after a while. "Good solder" is a tough one. I tend to like very thin solid solder and a separate flux source, but that's personal preference. They are hard to find and getting rarer but an electronics supply store usually has the better solder. They may also have the better irons too, and probably a more knowledgeable staff than "The Shack". I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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