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WRGKMC

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I was messing around in the studio and thought I'd do a little audio test.

Thought it would be fun to match the audio to the instruments.

 

I posted this in the guitar forum too bacause so many say wood has no affect on the tone and only the pickups matter. As you can clearly hear in the clips and see in the

screen shots they definately have different tone. My guess is thay have no experience playing multiple guitars with the same pickups.

 

The three guitars below have the same pickups and did a short track with all three.

Thought it would be fun to have everyone match the sound of each guitar to the ones in the picture. I provides an audio clip and audio analizer screen shot of each.

 

The pickups are all from the same manufacture and have the same ohm readings and are adjusted the same distance from the strings. Same brand of strings used.

I had the volume and tone pots maxed on all and played the same basic clean chords on each clip.

 

I used the Neck only first, Then Neck and Bridge, then the Bridge only on all three clips. I changed no audio settings and recorded the guitars direct for maximum fidelity.

 

Heres the three guitars.

First left is a solid Maple build,

Second center a Epi Dot,

Third Left is a semihollow Walnut/Rosewood/Maple Tele Build.

 

All have the same Mini Humbuckers Installed.

The differences in tone are due to the guitar builds and wood

 

IMG_1082.JPG

 

Heres the three audio Files.

 

Guitar A http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1682170/Trio%20Test%20AA.mp3

Guitar B http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1682170/Trio%20Test%20BB.mp3

Guitar C http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1682170/Trio%20Test%20CC.mp3

 

 

 

 

Heres the Three Audio Analizer Shots

 

Guitar A

AA.jpg

 

Guitar B

BB.jpg

 

Guitar C

CC.jpg

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Very cool. It would be great if there was a whole series of these for many wood combinations somewhere out therte on the interwebs. The difference between the dot and the two solids is expected, the difference between the maple and the walnut/rosewood is clear, even to my damaged hearing. Having identical setups with only wood as a variable is very useful and I would love to see more of these type of comparisons. You need to build more guitars in the name of science, WRG.

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Yes very intresting on the diffrent woods ,i mess around with cheap guitars for my kid,my favourite guitar to modify are the 70,s columbus les paul copys ie the white one with the 50 m thick solid body,i think they are made from hardwood and the guitar weighs approx 4.6 kg,i normaly fit them with Gibson burst buckers and to be honest when played through a same set up rig,his columbus dosent sound any diffrent to a Propper les paul, and my kid says with a 2mm action it plays just the same as a gibson as well,in saying that tho he would love to own an expensive gibson, :thu: he just wouldent gigg with it.

 

his first guitar was a balsa wood encore strat wich i bought at the boot fair for 30$ ,and put 3 seymoure strat pickups in,this sounds nothing like a USA strat at all with a comparison test,but if a drunk knocks it over at 2 am in a morning ,at saves having a brawl and i just make another one for $ 30 :cop::facepalm: ,in saying that tho the guitar has its own sound ie very thin and he plays it everytime he giggs out of choice.

 

the nicest guitar we have is a EA250 epiphone semi acuistic and that sounds wounderfull on blues tunes,but that ones never gigged :thu:

 

from the 3 samples i like the epi dot best ,sounds wonderfull.

 

just out of intrest ,this is my kids demo, on our "no budjet guitars "the first guns roses bit is on the columbus and the tune last pride & joy is played on the strat,both guitars played through a marshall lm 6100 100w combo.

http://www.myspace.com/musicalosgringos/music/songs/our-demo-los-gringos-medley-mp3-78904147

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Very cool. It would be great if there was a whole series of these for many wood combinations somewhere out therte on the interwebs. The difference between the dot and the two solids is expected, the difference between the maple and the walnut/rosewood is clear, even to my damaged hearing. Having identical setups with only wood as a variable is very useful and I would love to see more of these type of comparisons. You need to build more guitars in the name of science, WRG.

 

 

Well I've built allot of guitars But it would be pretty boaring without different pickup combinations to add to the tonal differences.

I could post more clips to show the differences but the differences in tone would be racked up to the pickups not the wood and pickup combinations.

 

I do have three very different strat combinations. They all have single coils. Maybe I'll post those.

 

By the way any guess on which clip matches which guitar?

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WRGKMC ,have you used active pickups in a strat ? i think Gilmore used to use active,it would be intresting to hear the diffrence in a usa strat and a usa strat with actives also just out of intrest ,what pickups do you prefer in a semi acuistic (335 ) for blues /knoppfler type no pick playing ?

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^^ An active pickup simply has a preamp built in for a clean analog boost.

The pickup is wound with lower impedance (less wimds or lower magnetic flux)

This gives the pickup a wider frequency responce. Then they add a preamp to boost the signal up

to a normal pickup strength. Nothing magical about it other than some added clarity and presence.

 

I do have some active circuits in guitars I've put in guitars.

One is a clean boost preamp that I have in a Casino copy with P90 pickups.

The preamp nearly tripples their output strength and by doing so the presence is much stronger.

 

I have a midrange boost/cut in a strat which is very cool, it will boost or cut the mid freqiencues of a strat and

let you get any tones from an eric clapton tupe tone to a Dire straits type tone.

 

The third guitar has a 5 way distortion built into a strat. It can nail that Joe Walsh Tone plugged straight into an amp.

 

All are Artec Circuits you can pick up cheap here http://guitarfuel.com/Home_Page.php

They have very low noise, easy to install, and battery live is extremely long if you unplug your instrument to disconnect the battery.

I left one plugged in for a week and it still didnt drain the battery.

 

I'll see if I can remember to make some clips so you can hear how they sound.

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Nice test. The scale length on the Epi Dot plays a part too. Probably the best blind test I've heard is the one done a few years ago at the GAL convention where StewMac donated necks, parts, and electronics for three identical guitars built by Saul Koll (IIRC). The only difference between the three were the woods: ash, alder, and pawlonia (again, IIRC). Very noticeable difference in the pawlonia, and a very subtle difference between the ash and alder - so much so that it was hard to remember which sound went with which wood during a blind test, but always easy to pick out the Pawlonia.

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^^^ The scale length on all three is 25.5" so its really not a factor.

other than the Tele necks have one less fret.

 

All use TOM bridges. The stop tail on the DOT has the strings wrapped over the tail vs through the tail.

This helps to mimick the string hight and downward pressure on a bridge a floating tailpiece provides.

 

The tailpiece on the Hollowbody Tele was shortened in comparison to the one on the left.

 

Any guesses on which guitar matches which clip?

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pickup mfg. is not "six sigma" hell its likely not even 2-3 sigma; so all differences can be accounted for in pickup variation so you MUST install the exact same pickup on each guitar


kidding, nice exp!

 

 

Yea, I'm getting picked appart on that stuff minor crap on the guitar forum.

I even changed all the strings at the same time friday night on all three and broke them in 2 hours each.

i even polished and crowned the frets, reset actions to match exactly.

 

The left and right Guitars in the pics have the same gotah bridges and same Fender tuners.

All three have brass nuts. All that stuff can have minor differences in tone of course, but

the point is what are the strings attatchhed to? Three very different guitars.

A few ohms difference in pickups dont ammount to a hill of beans on a recording.

 

The point is the collective construction and wood materials are different on all three so all three sound slightly

different. What you cant post in a clip is how they feel in youir hands playing them. The string vibration feels very different and that

same vibration difference you feel gets conducted into the strings.

 

Anyone ever talk through a tin can telephone? Strings conduct sound from one end to the other fairly well the same way a

guitar string does. It transmits sound into the body, it resonates through the body and passes back up into the string from both ends.

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^^^ The scale length on all three is 25.5" so its really not a factor.

other than the Tele necks have one less fret.


All use TOM bridges. The stop tail on the DOT has the strings wrapped over the tail vs through the tail.

This helps to mimick the string hight and downward pressure on a bridge a floating tailpiece provides.


The tailpiece on the Hollowbody Tele was shortened in comparison to the one on the left.


Any guesses on which guitar matches which clip?

 

 

interesting. The spec's from Epiphone on the dot have it at 24.75", like other Gibson family instruments.

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Do all of the guitars have the same values of PuPs, pots and caps? Not just the stated values, but the measured values? Did you measure the output resistances of all the guitars in all 3 PuP selector positions at the jack for comparison? Even the switches add resistance to the circuit, right? And the type of cap construction and value colors the tone a bit, too. All that has some impact on how the amp or recording device reacts to the signal. If there is variation in any of this it's going to change the tone to some degree.

Not trying to ruin your study - I think it demonstrates that the same model of PuP can sound different from one guitar to the next - just not sure it's always for the reason you might think. In contrast, I've installed the same model EMGs in very differnt types of guitars and thought that they sounded about the same no matter what the guitar, which would seem to suggest the opposite of your findings.

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Wll im not wishing to mix it with you folks in the know,i have bust buckers fitted in a 4.6kg lp columbus and burstbuckers fitted in a 4kg epiphone les paul ,both guitats are fitted with the same pots / controls ( carnt rember what i fitted but they were not cheap ) and both guitars are the diffrence between black & white when played through the same set up.

 

because i have no musical back ground we normaly work on the sound that comes through the speakers, ie if it sounds nice it normaly is nice no matter what the guitar,some giggs we have done you could put clapton up front and people would still talk abought the weather,ive found the camparison test a great help being a diy / novis music type person. :thu:

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interesting. The spec's from Epiphone on the dot have it at 24.75", like other Gibson family instruments.

 

 

Just measured it, you're right. Well its 1/4" off. Woop de do. The other two are standard tele necks and they sound different right?

 

Still the point is I was making, some think Guitar pickups are supposed to be the only factor in giving an electric its tone.

If that was the case, all three clips would sound the same right? Different woods and construction techniques affect the acoustic sounc

and that acoustic tone travels through the strings from end to end and gets duplicated by the pickup.

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Do all of the guitars have the same values of PuPs, pots and caps? Not just the stated values, but the measured values? Did you measure the output resistances of all the guitars in all 3 PuP selector positions at the jack for comparison? Even the switches add resistance to the circuit, right? And the type of cap construction and value colors the tone a bit, too. All that has some impact on how the amp or recording device reacts to the signal. If there is variation in any of this it's going to change the tone to some degree.

Not trying to ruin your study - I think it demonstrates that the same model of PuP can sound different from one guitar to the next - just not sure it's always for the reason you might think. In contrast, I've installed the same model EMGs in very differnt types of guitars and thought that they sounded about the same no matter what the guitar, which would seem to suggest the opposite of your findings.

 

 

Both the left and right guitars are wired the same pair of 500K volume pots and no tone controlls.

They are wired like a gibson so when the center positions selected, one attenuates the other when turned down.

The dot has standard wiring.

 

Really though, I could wire the pups direct to the jack and the difference in tone would have even more difference between the different clips.

So long as the pots are cranked, and everything is properly wired, the pots are virtually out of the circuit. Everything else is pretty much vodoo.

 

I wonder some times if people even know what a pickup really came from.

It was technology taken from telephones, specifically dynamic headphones and dynamic mics used in telephone receivers,

except instead of using a metal disk above the magnatic coil that would convert the movement of the disk from the voice,

they use metal strings instead.

 

The first pickups I even used was a crystal radio headset with the disk removed and placed under the guitar strings.

The output was weak but loud enough to record into a small recorders mic input.

 

You can take a thin piece of flexable steel and place it over a pickup in close proxcimity and turn a pickup into a microphone

for voice. Its not going to be high fidelity of course, but you would be able to easily identify someone voice the same way you can

identify someones voice over a telephone. Since a guitar pickup is generally a dynamic mic engine in how it generates a signal,

Or should I say its closer to a ribbin mic element, It has enough fidelity to reproduce the differences in string tone given to the

strings by the different guitar builds. Thats it in a nut shell.

 

If you're looking for more than that, you're missing what a guitar is as a whole.

Its true the strings produce notes through their mechanical vibration but they also conduct tone thats traveled through the body as well.

Solids, including the strings, condict vibrations faster than the speed of sound. (sound travels faster through solids then the air)

The body and neck absorb some of the frequencies the strings produce and leave the others fairly strong.

That resonance gets carried back up into the strings and through the pickups. Strings are solid afterall. Why wouldnt they conduct

resonated sound from the body?

 

Its not like the strings only produce sound into the body and neck and the nut and bridge act like a one way valve for sound.

Waves sound waves can travel in two directions at the same time and pass through each other just like light does.

Its like a stone thrown into a pool. Once the wave hits the wall it reverses and comes back at you.

You have two waves passing eachother in two different directions. Same holds true for sound except they occir much faster.

 

What you wind up hearing through the pickup is the direct soound from a string and the revibration/the resonance of the string tone passing through the body.

"Thats The essence of tone" Direct sound only would be dry and sterile sounding without the accompnuing resonance.

 

If the substance sound waves pass through have a specific resonance, it may absorb one frequency more than another. The

specific wood has an EQing effect on the string vibration making its tone unique.

 

This is something most have experienced. Hit a specific note on the fretboard, and you get a dead note. Its a frequency that just gets eaten up by the

lack of wood resonance for that frequency. Other notes sustain. The note of the string vibration is in close proxcimity to the wood resonance (or one of its

harmonic pitches, 3rds, 5ths 7ths etc. This is something familure to a guitarist when he holds the body close to a loud amp and finds the notes

on the neck that resonate with the body.

 

The body vibration causes the strings to vibrate in a self sustaining feedback loop. Its called Syncopated vibration its where vibrating air can match a solid

body resonance and cause it to vibrate. like when a singer sings a loud note and causes a glass crystal to break.

 

Again, many guitars have simular charecturistics, but basically tone wood on a guitar is not much different than a Xylophone block that has a resonant pitch.

That difference in resonant pitch is what you hear in those clips.

 

The first clip has a body with a resonant tone of a B note which is approximately 61 hz (yes I measured it to a tuner tapping it like a wood block and finding the pitch)

I havent tested the other two for pitch, but my guess is the bodies have a lower resonant pitch. The Dot is probibly a complex resonance because its semihollow.

 

Anyway, all this stuff is pretty elementary common sence stuff many either dont know or cant tie together properly in their minds for some reason.

I have to draw back and realize many didnt spend a lifetime studying this stuff like I have so whats common sence to me is sketchey and vauge to others.

 

I suppose if you had a nuclear physicist, he could explain sound conductance at a nuclear level when theres less space between atoms, theres less air

to absorb the vibrations as with dencer woods. Wood isnt the only substance that conducts sound of course. Metals, Plastics and even stone conduct sound.

i wouldnt howeve want to strap a cinder block or steel bar around my neck. I have a lucite guitar that conducts sound pretty good. kind of generic sounding

but it works.

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Just measured it, you're right. Well its 1/4" off. Woop de do. The other two are standard tele necks and they sound different right?


Still the point is I was making, some think Guitar pickups are supposed to be the only factor in giving an electric its tone.

If that was the case, all three clips would sound the same right? Different woods and construction techniques affect the acoustic sounc

and that acoustic tone travels through the strings from end to end and gets duplicated by the pickup.

 

 

Should be .75" difference, if they're standard 25.5" scales on the tele. But you'll get no argument from me regarding the importance of everything in a guitar design, not just the pickups. That also includes the scale length.

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^^ Right, I hadnt had my coffee yet.

 

I put the minis on the DOT because the thing was too dark sounding for my tastes with full sized HB's

I tried at least a half dozen different different sets prior to that. If I had recorded a track with the Full sized

HB's you would have really noted the differences. In my book a Dot doesnt come close to an ES335 which

I've also owned. I've also owned a Vox Apollo and a Moserite Celebrity which are both fine semihollows.

I'm just not a big fan of the wood used in the Dots. Guess I just played american guitars for so long I'm used

to their wood tones. Theres something strange in the tones of some oriental builds. I dont notice it in fenders as much.

The darker colored woods are less dence or something, I dont know. its not so much in what you hear as what you feel playing them.

Its like the Tycos I've owned. They have a really bland sound to me. (Beyond the poor craftsmanship)

 

I owned a 60's Epi Riviera about 40 years ago and loved the sound that guitar could get.

The Minis I put in pretty much nails that tone. If the neck was like a riviera it would be even better but

I do get the notes to sustain the way I want them to with high gain so its good enough.

 

I owned it and a 70's Les Paul Gold top which had the same minis in it at the same time I owned the Epi.

I swapped the pickups around thinking the older Epi pups would make the Paul sound better.

Its amazing what you can convince youself if you are looking for something you are convionced has to be there.

After swapping them back and forth a few times, I realized, if there was any difference there it didnt amount

to anything anyone else could hear. The two guitars sounded very different, one being semi and one very solid.

 

So you can say I learned at a very earley age that the same pickups in two different guitars merely EQ's the signal the same.

They arent responzible for creating the tone thats generated by the rest of the instrument.

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Both the left and right guitars are wired the same pair of 500K volume pots and no tone controlls.

They are wired like a gibson so when the center positions selected, one attenuates the other when turned down.

The dot has standard wiring.


Really though, I could wire the pups direct to the jack and the difference in tone would have even more difference between the different clips.

So long as the pots are cranked, and everything is properly wired, the pots are virtually out of the circuit. Everything else is pretty much vodoo.


I wonder some times if people even know what a pickup really came from.

It was technology taken from telephones, specifically dynamic headphones and dynamic mics used in telephone receivers,

except instead of using a metal disk above the magnatic coil that would convert the movement of the disk from the voice,

they use metal strings instead.


The first pickups I even used was a crystal radio headset with the disk removed and placed under the guitar strings.

The output was weak but loud enough to record into a small recorders mic input.


You can take a thin piece of flexable steel and place it over a pickup in close proxcimity and turn a pickup into a microphone

for voice. Its not going to be high fidelity of course, but you would be able to easily identify someone voice the same way you can

identify someones voice over a telephone. Since a guitar pickup is generally a dynamic mic engine in how it generates a signal,

Or should I say its closer to a ribbin mic element, It has enough fidelity to reproduce the differences in string tone given to the

strings by the different guitar builds. Thats it in a nut shell.


If you're looking for more than that, you're missing what a guitar is as a whole.

Its true the strings produce notes through their mechanical vibration but they also conduct tone thats traveled through the body as well.

Solids, including the strings, condict vibrations faster than the speed of sound. (sound travels faster through solids then the air)

The body and neck absorb some of the frequencies the strings produce and leave the others fairly strong.

That resonance gets carried back up into the strings and through the pickups. Strings are solid afterall. Why wouldnt they conduct

resonated sound from the body?


Its not like the strings only produce sound into the body and neck and the nut and bridge act like a one way valve for sound.

Waves sound waves can travel in two directions at the same time and pass through each other just like light does.

Its like a stone thrown into a pool. Once the wave hits the wall it reverses and comes back at you.

You have two waves passing eachother in two different directions. Same holds true for sound except they occir much faster.


What you wind up hearing through the pickup is the direct soound from a string and the revibration/the resonance of the string tone passing through the body.

"Thats The essence of tone" Direct sound only would be dry and sterile sounding without the accompnuing resonance.


If the substance sound waves pass through have a specific resonance, it may absorb one frequency more than another. The

specific wood has an EQing effect on the string vibration making its tone unique.


This is something most have experienced. Hit a specific note on the fretboard, and you get a dead note. Its a frequency that just gets eaten up by the

lack of wood resonance for that frequency. Other notes sustain. The note of the string vibration is in close proxcimity to the wood resonance (or one of its

harmonic pitches, 3rds, 5ths 7ths etc. This is something familure to a guitarist when he holds the body close to a loud amp and finds the notes

on the neck that resonate with the body.


The body vibration causes the strings to vibrate in a self sustaining feedback loop. Its called Syncopated vibration its where vibrating air can match a solid

body resonance and cause it to vibrate. like when a singer sings a loud note and causes a glass crystal to break.


Again, many guitars have simular charecturistics, but basically tone wood on a guitar is not much different than a Xylophone block that has a resonant pitch.

That difference in resonant pitch is what you hear in those clips.


The first clip has a body with a resonant tone of a B note which is approximately 61 hz (yes I measured it to a tuner tapping it like a wood block and finding the pitch)

I havent tested the other two for pitch, but my guess is the bodies have a lower resonant pitch. The Dot is probibly a complex resonance because its semihollow.


Anyway, all this stuff is pretty elementary common sence stuff many either dont know or cant tie together properly in their minds for some reason.

I have to draw back and realize many didnt spend a lifetime studying this stuff like I have so whats common sence to me is sketchey and vauge to others.


I suppose if you had a nuclear physicist, he could explain sound conductance at a nuclear level when theres less space between atoms, theres less air

to absorb the vibrations as with dencer woods. Wood isnt the only substance that conducts sound of course. Metals, Plastics and even stone conduct sound.

i wouldnt howeve want to strap a cinder block or steel bar around my neck. I have a lucite guitar that conducts sound pretty good. kind of generic sounding

but it works.

 

 

 

 

You have a unique perspective on guitar buliding and tone.

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Its worth bearing in mind ,that without folks taking time to provide info like this and genral advice goodwill,the rest of us would probably spend weeks trying to sort things out,get frustrated and probably go down the bar for a beer,result nothing would get done,this internet is a great tool,im supprised our governments havent banned it yet :facepalm:

 

mind you im in europe,so they probably havent got the money to ban it :rolleyes:

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