Members Funkwave Posted April 22, 2015 Members Share Posted April 22, 2015 Hey Guys, I am using some pretty darn good Audix DP series mics on my Yamaha kit but something odd is happening. I noticed that every channel of the drum kit has some bleed from -30 to -40 db. I don't know if that should be a tolerable level. I am using a Focusrite mic pre rack and assigning all drums to their own individual channels. I do know of course, that the overheads will pick up a lot of the kit but should I be seeing a tom channel that is not currently being used, peeking at half of the desired volume level for an actual hit? I spoke with Focusrite today. There were no issues. I tried using 3 different Daw's and the same results. All drums were assigned to individual channels in the DAW and all mics plugged into their own pre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members onelife Posted April 24, 2015 Members Share Posted April 24, 2015 Do you have the capability to put gates on individual channels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 When you multi-mic a drum kit, you can expect there to be considerable amounts of bleed. If it's 30-40 dB down from the level of the hits, you're doing fine. The thing about mic placement is that it's often as much a matter of controlling off-axis pickup and coloration as it is optimizing on-axis pickup and tone. You can try to minimize bleed, but you're never going to get rid of it. There's no way you're going to put a tom mic three or four feet away from a snare drum that's hitting 120 dB SPL peaks and not have the tom mic react considerably. You can reduce it somewhat if the snare is in the tom mic's polar pattern's null point, but if it's only partially off-axis with the snare, distance alone is hardly enough to make much of a difference. Even in the null, the attenuation might only be 20-30 dB, so either way, you're going to pick up a lot of bleed. What some people do (after the fact) is either use a gate on the toms, or go in an edit out all the areas where they're not playing. Or just mute those channels in the mix except for the spots where they're needed. Others don't bother with any of that, and live by the "let it bleed!" mantra. Do you have any individual tracks, and maybe a drum submix you could put up so we could hear how much bleed you're getting and how the drums sound overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 24, 2015 Members Share Posted April 24, 2015 The important item isn't the bleed over its the phasing between mics. The overhead condensers will pick up the entire set. If you have them placed properly, the mic phasing of your loudest drums like the snare and kick will be in phase with the overheads and are additive. When mics are out of phase, they have detrimental eqing effects that null out frequencies. I suggest you set all the mics for mono and use isolation headphones to set them for the best sound. Using the 3:1 rule can also help. If worst comes to worse, you can expand your track view after recording and slide the tracks so the peak waves align. I usually do this for the kick drum bleed over in the mics and it usually gives me the best sound overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thanks for the input Guys, When I get back to the studio, I will post a soloed drum track so you can get a sense of what's going on. While we are on the issue of drumkits, do you think It would help to put an absorption panel cloud over the drums? I have panels behind the kit. Perhaps The hard, 8ft, sheetrock cieling is picking some bad reflections above the kit? I think some of the "Acoustics gurus" mention this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Yes, you'd probably be better off with absorption on the ceiling over the kit. What type of panels are you using behind the kit? Do you have the kit set up in / near a corner, or along a wall, or...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 24, 2015 Hey Phil, The kit is located in the middle of a wall, between 2 corners. I have 3 GIK Acoustics 2x4, 4 inch panels behind the kit, spaced about 2 inches apart. Also Tri-trap bass traps in the corners. I just thinking the overheads may be picking up some slap off of the ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Carminemw Posted April 24, 2015 Members Share Posted April 24, 2015 Use the bleed to your advatnage. Find the sweet capture spots with good blend. Capture the individual channels but then edit each separately to produce good blends. Close mic with unidirectional condensers with gates and then mix with the area mics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Hey Phil, The kit is located in the middle of a wall, between 2 corners. I have 3 GIK Acoustics 2x4, 4 inch panels behind the kit, spaced about 2 inches apart. Also Tri-trap bass traps in the corners. I just thinking the overheads may be picking up some slap off of the ceiling. If you're planning on using GIK panels above the kit, I'd recommend getting their "cloud mounting brackets" that allow you to space them away from it a bit. Here's the link: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/acoustic-panel-ceiling-cloud-mounting-brackets/ That will help with low frequency effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 24, 2015 Moderators Share Posted April 24, 2015 Kill the ceiling over the kit for sure. Try putting your OHs in front of the kit at cymbal height as a great alternative. The kit is bouncing off the ceiling, onto the surface of your cymbals and drums and feeding a comb filter producing reflection right back into you OHs. Micing in the direction of the cymbal edge pointing at the back wall sounds great. Maybe a couple feet out and one above the cymbal edge point down at them and your snare. Aim into you wall treatment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 25, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 If you're planning on using GIK panels above the kit, I'd recommend getting their "cloud mounting brackets" that allow you to space them away from it a bit. Here's the link: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/acoustic-panel-ceiling-cloud-mounting-brackets/ That will help with low frequency effectiveness. Already have the brackets and panels. Just need to stop playing with all my fun gear and get those things mounted :-) Thanks Phil. Lee, Sounds like some great OH techniques. I will give it a shot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 27, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 27, 2015 Hey Phil and Folks, As promised, I posted some short clips of the mic'ed up kit. One clip is totally dry. On the other, I borrowed a $500,000 oak room for ambience :-) . Audix i5 for snare, Audix D6 for kick, Audix D2's on toms, Audix D4 for floor tom, Audix ADK 51's for overheads. Drum_Kit_Mic-Up_Wet.mp3 Drum_Kit_Mic-Up_Dry.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 27, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 27, 2015 See the pic for OH setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Already have the brackets and panels. Just need to stop playing with all my fun gear and get those things mounted :-) Thanks Phil. Sure. How many panels do you have for the ceiling - three? If so, I'd space them in a similar way as the wall panels, and put them directly above the kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Also, have you ever tried a Glyn Johns overhead configuration? If not, give it a try sometime. It's not a cure-all, but I think it might help a bit since it lowers the position of the tom side "overhead" quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 28, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 28, 2015 Sure. How many panels do you have for the ceiling - three? If so, I'd space them in a similar way as the wall panels, and put them directly above the kit. Yes. Three panels were supposed to mounted as a cloud above the kit, mirroring the wall panels. I still don't know if the cieling sounds like an issue from the test recordings. If not, I can save time and use the panels for something else. I will research the Glyn Johns technique and give it a whirl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I think you'll find the panels very helpful placed over the drum kit. Please let me know what you think about the Glyn Johns approach if you give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 29, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 29, 2015 I think you'll find the panels very helpful placed over the drum kit. Please let me know what you think about the Glyn Johns approach if you give it a try. Will do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted April 29, 2015 Author Members Share Posted April 29, 2015 Phil, One thing. I'm certainly not going to argue with Glyn Johns but how do you avoid the swishing cymbal sounds that will be inches away from the Condenser Mic over most floor toms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 An excellent question! If the arrangement of the kit is such that the "side" overhead (near the floor tom) is edge-on to a cymbal, you can try moving the mic up and back, so that instead of sitting low on the far side of the tom, it's higher, and moved closer towards the drummer's position. Keep it the same distance from the center of the snare as the other overhead mic and experiment - you'll see that there's quite a few places - a whole arc - that you can put it and keep that same distance, but at different locations and heights. You can Google "recorderman overheads" for more info about this variation of the Glyn Johns approach - here's a link that may help you: http://jonstinson.com/the-recorder-man-drum-miking-technique/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted May 1, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2015 Yup. Seen the Recorderman method all over the net. I'm gonna give it a shot and see the variations of coloring the kit. Cool link. Interesting how he chose to use the 57's over condensers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwave Posted May 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2015 Phil, I set up my OH mics incorporating The Glyn Johns method. The recording sounded great as a whole but the only problem I encountered, which I might expect, was that the toms sounding thin. IOW, great attack on the head sound but no meat or depth to the toms. I have my toms tuned open, nice and fat with no tape, Moongel etc, but the recording sounded like the toms were dampened like a hand was placed on them. When the toms were miced on their own, I was getting the resonance and attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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