Members oldnewbie Posted June 13, 2008 Members Share Posted June 13, 2008 OK, my master bus shows clipping but the individual tracks do not. Is it the master fader or the track faders that should be brought down? (BTW I'm using Sonar 7 SE but that should be irrelevant) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eschatologist Posted June 13, 2008 Members Share Posted June 13, 2008 Track faders (assuming your master is set to zero), you're trying to send too much to the master. Mix everything with at least -6 db of headroom and you'll be ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldnewbie Posted June 13, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 13, 2008 Thanks man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2008 As I build a mix I sometimes find myself in the red... but I like the balance and don't want to lose it. So make a group that includes all the faders (Actually, Pro Tools already has one built called All). I'll trim the All group back by 6dB or so and ungroup. After ungrouping make sure to return your master fader to 0. No more overloading, same balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eschatologist Posted June 13, 2008 Members Share Posted June 13, 2008 As I build a mix I sometimes find myself in the red... but I like the balance and don't want to lose it. So make a group that includes all the faders (Actually, Pro Tools already has one built called All). I'll trim the All group back by 6dB or so and ungroup. After ungrouping make sure to return your master fader to 0.No more overloading, same balance. Thats a really good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldnewbie Posted June 13, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 13, 2008 As I build a mix I sometimes find myself in the red... but I like the balance and don't want to lose it. So make a group that includes all the faders (Actually, Pro Tools already has one built called All). I'll trim the All group back by 6dB or so and ungroup. After ungrouping make sure to return your master fader to 0.No more overloading, same balance. Anyboday out there know how to do this in Sonar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 14, 2008 Members Share Posted June 14, 2008 I don't know, but I do the same thing in Pro Tools also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kaux Posted June 14, 2008 Members Share Posted June 14, 2008 When they say "shoot for your nominal level when tracking" i understand very well. But this has been my question too. When they say "also shoot for your nominal level when mixing". As you build your mix, how could you calculate that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted June 14, 2008 Members Share Posted June 14, 2008 The problem with the "all group"/pull down faders in PT is that it doesn't work if you've already started writing automation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 16, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2008 The problem with the "all group"/pull down faders in PT is that it doesn't work if you've already started writing automation. What you do if you've started writing automation is... Group to All as alreadying mentioned. Now change the waveform display to Volume. Select All so every track from start to finish is selected. Actually, it's really only the volume curve that's selected, right? Choose the "Bracket" tool. The one that looks like ]. Now use the bracket tool to lower the whole track's automation curve. This will do so on every track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 . Now use the bracket tool to lower the whole track's automation curve. This will do so on every track. Damn, that's awesome. I love you man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjamonkey Posted June 26, 2008 Members Share Posted June 26, 2008 I have had this problem as well. It would seem that the solution is to bring down all of the faders except the master. However, I have done a test, and pulling down the master fader removed the audible clipping. I may be wrong, but the bit depth of the master bus is higher than what the fader indicates, and thus has more headroom than the meter leads you to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldnewbie Posted June 26, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 26, 2008 Yeah I realized what the problem was. My mixes were too quiet so I was normalizing. The normalizing is what made the master bus clip. My ME told me not to normalize so I figured out how to raise the overall gain w/o normalizing (in Sonar 7 goto Process>Audio>Gain). After that I was able to bring my peaks up to -6dB w/ no clipping on the master bus. I guess I accomplished in Sonar what the other folks were talking about in PT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdoubleyou Posted June 26, 2008 Members Share Posted June 26, 2008 Also be aware that frequencies are additive. Even though an individual track may not be peaking when combined with other tracks may cause overages in certain frequency ranges. Use a spectrum anylizer to detect problem frequencies, then eq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 27, 2008 I have had this problem as well. It would seem that the solution is to bring down all of the faders except the master. However, I have done a test, and pulling down the master fader removed the audible clipping. Lowering your master fader might remove the clipping but your mix will sound better by lowering the individual faders and leaving your master at zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjamonkey Posted June 27, 2008 Members Share Posted June 27, 2008 Why's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zooey Posted June 27, 2008 Members Share Posted June 27, 2008 I have had this problem as well. It would seem that the solution is to bring down all of the faders except the master. However, I have done a test, and pulling down the master fader removed the audible clipping.I may be wrong, but the bit depth of the master bus is higher than what the fader indicates, and thus has more headroom than the meter leads you to believe. The clip lights on the master fader show you when your outputs are clipping, not the mix buss. The mix buss itself has almost unlimited headroom. I still prefer to pull down track faders because it helps prevent overloading sends. This is in Pro Tools HD--it might not be a big issue on other platforms, I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldnewbie Posted June 27, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2008 I've also heard not to move the master fader, don't know why, just what I heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weasel9992 Posted June 27, 2008 Members Share Posted June 27, 2008 As I build a mix I sometimes find myself in the red... but I like the balance and don't want to lose it. So make a group that includes all the faders (Actually, Pro Tools already has one built called All). I'll trim the All group back by 6dB or so and ungroup. After ungrouping make sure to return your master fader to 0.No more overloading, same balance. I've done the same thing for years. It's like we're brothers or somethin'. Obviously you can't anticipate every possibility in terms of mix levels during tracking (though you can have a pretty good idea), but if you track at 0dBVU RMS, you'll be fine. You'll end up with a mix-buss peaking around -6 to -3dB. Your ME will be totally cool with that, though he/she will be fine with more head room than that too. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 28, 2008 Why's that? I've read explanations as to why you're better off not lowering your master but the particulars escape me... I can tell you what my tests showed; If you run your faders hot and lower your master the sound is constipated, choked. If you lower you faders and keep your master at zero the sound is open and natural. It's easy enough to do the test yourself... try and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjamonkey Posted June 29, 2008 Members Share Posted June 29, 2008 I will have to try that test. My test involved copying about 50 of the same track, each one not clipping, but obviously their cum clipping int he master. It sounded distorted. So I puleld downt he master fader and the distortions ound was gone. Relatedly, is it bad to have your track faders too low? It seems before you start mixing you'd want to turn down your track faders very low aso that the sum doesn't clip, but is there a consequence to turning them down too low? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjamonkey Posted July 6, 2008 Members Share Posted July 6, 2008 Just thought I'd bump this, as I'm quite curious whether it is "bad" to turn down faders very low as long as the level is -6dB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricImages Posted July 28, 2008 Members Share Posted July 28, 2008 If you aren't clipping on any individual track or bus, why would turning down the master be bad? I understand you need to be careful about not overloading any effects or sends but these things can be monitored too. I always try to mix low such that there is no need to turn down the master, but sometimes I find myself needing to turn down the master by about 1-2dB to avoid a few stray peaks in a song that aren't clipping an individual track but when added to the rest of the mix push the master a bit into the red. Is there any absolute reason why you shouldn't do this? Also, any chance you could detail how you acheived turning down all the tracks in sonar with automation already written? I hate getting towards the end of a mix being a little too hot but then having to deal with the fact that a bunch of automation is already written in. I'm currently using sonar 7 too. I would appreciate the tip!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 28, 2008 Members Share Posted July 28, 2008 In Sonar, if you right click on the master meters, you can change the DB sensitivity level of the meters. It extends the meter range and gives a more stabel reading especially on music that is very dynamic. It visually smooths out the peaks for reading and setting the overall gain. Audio Peaks still occur and you may have to lower the overall level to compensate, but extermely fast transients may not be noticed in the mixdown in hot level recordings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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