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  • Outlaw Raves?

    This weekend there were four hundred arrests at a rave in San Bernardino.

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...nap-story.html

    Mainly for drug offenses. There were a couple of noise complaints, but apparently someone taught the sheriff's department how to use a SPL meter and the readings were within the limits. But even with the noise within limits, I wonder if the arrests will renew calls for Raves to be outlawed. They've considered it before, and I suspect they might again.

    http://www.sbsun.com/arts-and-entert...fontana-deaths

    Is there a real issue here in your mind? If so, what is the issue, and what is the solution?
    **********

    "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

    - George Carlin

    "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

    - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

    "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

    - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

  • #2
    My fist question would be: which drugs ? The word "drugs" is a catch all term sort of like "child molester" and "anarchist". If reports about criminal behavior on bath salts and Flakka (whatever that is) are true, and that's what they're doing, I'd say lock 'em up. If they're smoking pot and maybe doing some acid and behaving peacefully, I'd tend to let 'em be.

    Part of the problem to me is the over generalization in the term "drugs".

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    • #3
      They arrested six for being underage? Arrested??

      Aside from arresting people for being underage, I can understand both points of view, the Raver's and The Man's. Maybe it's a sort of a shot across the bow by the authorities - like a vice squad sweep and roundup, just to keep a lid on things in that part of town.

      It seems heavy-handed to me, an Austinite. But you don't like to see kids dying from Ecstasy and so on - too high a price for just being a dumb kid like we all have been. Of course the kids love being outlaws, so the "oppression" feeds the whole scenario.

      If there are laws passed to outlaw the Raves, that would be nothing new, but it seems regressive to me. And the raves go underground anyway, and the antagonism escalates.

      The raves and rave-related activity can get so huge and out of control, it's true - kids are so connected and just go crazy for big bandwagon, flash-type events. I would think some sort of regulation plus a lot of judicious looking the other way would be the tack to take. Kids are going to be kids - the most that can be done is some sort of damage control that doesn't feel like an assault by The Man on the kids. A fine line, no question. Zillions of kids, all sorts of misbehaviors and substance abuse, just puts the Authorities on edge, wanting to "do something" about potential disasters. Discretion advised.

      nat whilk ii
      Last edited by nat whilk II; 09-06-2016, 09:53 AM.

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      • #4
        When raves are outlawed, only outlaws will have raves

        I think Nat got it right. No extreme, either really clamp down or leave totally alone, is going to work. The other question that needs to be asked is how often is this really a problem. I've been to several dance events and aside from one where a person had taken too much ecstasy and had to be removed from the premises, there wasn't anything horrible or even worrisome going on.

        One of the biggest problems with social regulation in general is a blip happens, everyone freaks out, and overreacts. Not sure if that's the case here, but sometimes it's best just to stay calm and see what happens over the next few months before deciding whether drastic measures are needed.
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        • #5
          They hated us when I was a hippie too. They hated the people who got off on Al Jolson. They hated the flappers. They hated the jazzers in the Ellington days. They hated the people who listened to that evil Rock and Roll during the Elvis Presley years.

          It's the new generation's duty to rebel, and music is a good, safe way to let them rebel. And conversely, it's the old guard's duty to dislike the new music, or else it wouldn't be a rebellion.

          If the young generation didn't rebel, there would be fewer new constructive ideas.

          The drugs are just a convenient way to arrest them.

          I think as far as the "war on drugs" is concerned, the drugs will always win.

          Therefore, I think they should be legalized, regulated like alcohol and taxed. The bulk of the tax money should go for education - not propaganda because one lie renders the rest unbelievable.

          In our guarantee of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, making a drug illegal is against both liberty and the pursuit. Only if the drug directly harms someone other than the user, should there be a control. For example, second hand cigarette smoke harms those not using the drug, so it is banned in places where the public can be exposed to it. Driving under the influence endangers others on the road so driving under the influence should be illegal.

          The drug user should be have a right to harm himself/herself as long as he/she isn't harming his/her neighbor. After all, sky diving, mountain climbing, hang gliding, skiing, obesity from overeating, and thousands of other recreational activities can be be harmful to a person's health. I read some notes from the American Academy Of Anti Aging Medicine annual conference and the conclusion was "don't let your child play tackle football unless you don't like him." Why? Playing tackle football in high school results in the players having a 25% greater chance of developing Alzheimer's or Parkinson's in old age because of the concussions caused by the brain bouncing around in the skull when tacked or blocked. Other helmeted sports showed the same statistical conclusion. And the sample size was in the millions so there is a small margin of error.

          But what about crime?

          Making it legal reduces the crime. We all know about the Alcohol Prohibition era in the USA. There was no organized crime before alcohol became illegal. And marijuana, heroin, and cocaine were all legal before prohibition.

          Being illegal makes it expensive because or the risks of importing and selling it. Being expensive means the average person cannot afford it on a McJob salary. That puts grandmothers at risk for having their purse snatched and other potential victims. So the drug laws put non-users lives and/or property in danger. Their lives and property would be less in danger if the drugs were affordable.

          Humans, apes, birds and other animals seek out mind altering substances. Nothing is going to change that. Drugs will always win the drug war. So surrender, quit wasting tax dollars, and quit putting innocents in danger.

          If you make everything illegal, everyone will be criminals.

          I did my share of drugs when I was a hippie. But that was long ago, past the statute of limitations. Now my main drug is a daily cup of coffee and a couple of cups of tea. I don't even drink a glass of wine per month, but when I go out for a nice dinner I might have a glass. Because I don't indulge, it doesn't give me the right to tell others they cannot.

          Of course the laws should forbid driving under the influence. But if I have a choice between sharing the road with someone smoking pot or a drunk, I'd be safer with the pot smoker. I've been high on both. Second hand smoke like cigarettes should be controlled, minors should be prohibited from buying it, and other common sense rules.

          On the subject of minors, making it illegal would lessen the number of minors getting it. Why? The illegal drug dealer has the same risk selling to someone under age as he/she does to a person over 18 or 21. The licensed dealer can sell to "adults" with no problem, but jeopardizes his license and livelihood by selling to a minor.

          Our policemen and women would be safer if drugs were legal. It's easy to spot someone robbing a bank, but the police officer doesn't know if the person he pulled over has a kilo of coke in the trunk and is willing to kill the cop rather than get caught with it.

          Finally, I think the trillions of dollars we spend fighting the war on drugs and incarcerating drug 'criminals' is money that would be better spent on other things.

          That's my rant on the rave.

          I don't think it will do much good. There is too much profit in keeping the drugs illegal.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Notes_Norton View Post
            They hated us when I was a hippie too. They hated the people who got off on Al Jolson. They hated the flappers. They hated the jazzers in the Ellington days. They hated the people who listened to that evil Rock and Roll during the Elvis Presley years.

            It's the new generation's duty to rebel, and music is a good, safe way to let them rebel. And conversely, it's the old guard's duty to dislike the new music, or else it wouldn't be a rebellion.

            If the young generation didn't rebel, there would be fewer new constructive ideas.

            The drugs are just a convenient way to arrest them.

            Insights and incites by Notes
            Do you really think this is a hate-driven issue?

            And who are "they" that are doing the hating in your view? The cops? The authorities in general? All adults? Parents? Conservatives?

            I certainly think there's a lot of important ideas worth considering in your comments about legalizing drugs. Drug-related jail time and ruined careers because of criminal records surely creates as much or more criminality than it deters is my belief. But it's a complex issue, and the analogy with Prohibition is like all analogies - it works to an extent, then breaks down. There are massive differences between the 1920s situation and the 21st century situation.

            I must say, I have reservations about casting all this up as a black and white war between "haters" and "dutiful rebels."

            nat whilk ii

            Last edited by nat whilk II; 09-07-2016, 08:05 PM.

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            • #7
              This "rave" was a ticketed multi-day music festival (which is not what most people consider a rave). I think about 150 people typically get arrested per weekend at Coachella, but maybe this event was much more vigorously policed for whatever reason?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nat whilk II View Post

                Do you really think this is a hate-driven issue?<...>
                Point taken. Hate was too strong of a word.

                But my point was the adults seem to always want to disapprove of youth music, and throughout modern history have used the establishment to harass or control those listening to and enjoying it.

                Notes
                Bob "Notes" Norton
                Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
                Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box
                The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by nat whilk II View Post
                  They arrested six for being underage? Arrested??
                  That does seem a bit extreme, doesn't it? Toss them out, call their parents... but arrest them? Seems a bit much to me too.
                  **********

                  "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

                  - George Carlin

                  "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

                  - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                  "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

                  - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Many issues being combined here.

                    1. My understanding is that there were a great many OD's at recent SoCal events, so my first read on this story was that the cops decided to send a message that unbridled drug usage ain't OK.

                    2. Being arrested for being underage at an event is symptomatic of a profoundly diseased police culture; a culture that is a by-product of "law and order" hysteria that periodically sweeps our nation and causes mass stupidity like three strike laws and etc.

                    3. I don't feel that 'raves' are the target as much as 'drugged up crowds' are. Having worked large events, and been inside some nutty crowds, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to instill a little order. However, current US cops do a lousy job imposing order - in fact, they're trained to escalate conflicts, and then win them with displays of power.

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                    • #11
                      If you zoom out, the problem is that this country has a drug problem that manifests itself in a lot of ways. This was just one of them. Just as cops don't get all the speeders but just pick a few as an example so that others seeing the cop by the side of the road writing a ticket will slow down, this was the speeder that got picked. While those arrents may be a "feel good" type of thing for those who feel we need a crackdown on drugs, it won't do anything to solve the underlying problem.
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                      • #12
                        The war on drugs is pointless. As I said before, the drugs will always win.

                        And yes, some people will OD on them. Some mountain climbers fall off mountains - should we make that illegal? Some race car drivers crash and burn - should we make that illegal? Some people eat themselves into diabetes and eventually kill themselves - should we make obesity illegal? Some people while boating for pleasure lose their lives (storms, poor judgement, etc.) - should we make boating illegal? Some people OD on alcohol - should we re-introduce prohibition? Tylenol kills about 100 per year due to liver damage (drug OD) - should we make that illegal? Sunbathing can lead to terminal melanoma - should we make beaches and swimming pools illegal? Playing music and severely damage your ears - should we make playing music illegal?

                        Making drugs illegal just because some people OD on them is not a good reason. If it was, so many other things would have to be illegal. And I still guess that more lives and property are lost because they are illegal, than would be if they were legal. In addition, being illegal brings death to innocents who aren't taking the drug.

                        So drug arrests are not a good reason to raid the rave any more than the G-men raiding a Speakeasy way back then.

                        I don't do drugs, but I really don't feel I have the right to tell someone "You can't do that because it isn't good for you." And I don't think the government has that right. It violates live, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

                        I still think it's real purpose was a generational war. Just like it was when I was a hippie. The older generation trying to control the desires of the younger generation.

                        But I do reserve the right to be wrong.

                        Insights and incites by Notes
                        Bob "Notes" Norton
                        Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
                        Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box
                        The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<

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                        • #13
                          I hear you, Notes. It's just that considering the isolated individual who does personally harmful, dangerous things, is only part of the picture.

                          In our culture, we focus so much on the theoretical individual, making personal decisions, and trying to sort out which decisions effect "only the individual" and which ones effect other people.

                          But in reality there are all sorts of interconnected players involved besides the individual. What about sellers? Shouldn't it be a crime to profit by selling harmful stuff to people? And the manufacturers. And the users who evangelize friends and family to join in the drug fun, who carry on the drug party culture in clubs and other venues.

                          Drug is not usually just solitary - it's a social activity so much of the time. If it's all legalized, should big corporations be able to mount sophisticated campaigns to hook people for life? (remember cigarettes!) Drug abuse just comes with poverty, and unemployment, and broken families, and poor education, and poor prospects in life. It's a thread in a web of societal causes.

                          So someone destroys themselves with drugs. I certainly feel that criminalizing that person does little good, more likely great harm. But to just walk away, saying "we gotta let 'em do it if they want to - free country and all that - I wash my hands" does not necessarily follow as the next most logical or helpful tack to take.

                          The debate usually runs between those who want punishments handed out, and those who want freedoms maintained regardless of cost. A truly humane and compassionate society I would think should strive for some third way that works towards a society where drug abuse and drug profiteering is just not part of the picture, period.

                          nat whilk ii






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                          • #14
                            Not sure you can call it a 'rave' with 60+ thousand people. Yikes. I was expecting a warehouse party getting shutdown with a title like that. But that usually involves the planners making poor choices and drawing attention to themselves. I was afraid a city was developing ordinances against gatherings of over a hundred past 4 AM or something to that nature. But the real 'raves' are in industrial districts and noise isn't a problem. And they don't apply for permits anyway. Back to making good decisions and not drawing attention to the event.

                            When it comes to permitted festivals with police presence:

                            1. Hide your drugs better.
                            2. Don't do them in plain sight, and if you do, be clever about it.
                            3. Don't draw attention to yourself, especially if you're holding.
                            4. Take care of yourself and don't be an idiot.

                            Anyway, nobody calls it a rave anymore. Jus' Sayin'.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nat whilk II View Post
                              <...snip...>But in reality there are all sorts of interconnected players involved besides the individual. What about sellers? Shouldn't it be a crime to profit by selling harmful stuff to people?<...>
                              Merck and the FDA tested Vioxx against Naproxen (Aleve) for arthritis pain. The people taking Vioxx were 500 (not a typo) more likely to get a heart attack. When the FDA and Merck wrote the report, they said that Naproxen was 500 times better at preventing a heart attack, even though Naproxen was never tested or advertised as a preventive for heart failure.

                              So Merck put Vioxx on the market, and in the 5 years it was sold, it killed more Americans than the entire Viet Nam war. The FDA then levied a fine which was less than the price of one Super Bowl ad and reversed their approval.

                              IMHO both the executives in Merck and the testers in the FDA should have been tried for manslaughter.

                              But that's very different. Hiding the danger of the drug is not the same as someone knowingly doing something dangerous for the thrill of it. And I classify recreational drugs in the same category as skiing or hang gliding. Doing something very dangerous for the thrill of it. Some people will be able to do it safely with a risk, and some will be daredevils and end up where they asked to be.

                              I drive on US1 and I-95. I take vacations every year and have even flown in a Chinese airplane (at the time they had a very bad safety record). If I could afford it, I'd be a space tourist and pay the $2M to the Russian Gov't to get there.

                              But I don't do drugs anymore and haven't since the very early 1970s
                              Bob "Notes" Norton
                              Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
                              Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box
                              The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<

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