Need live mix advice desparately

[Rumorsband]

We are a 4 pc that plays to backing tracks. Tracks are drums, bass,horns. Live vocals, guitars, keyboards - no one uses amps - everything goes thru front of house system and mixed pretty darn good if I do say so myself. Here is my problem - live percussionist - how do I control his volume? Recent attempts to digitally record the band from off stage with hand held recorder have yielded ... The vocals and percussion up front and buried beneath that all the live and track music. He has earnestly tried hitting them softer but his chimes will overshadow the music. To the ear sometimes he sounds louder than he should but on a recording he is unusable. He wanted me to mic him off but I know he will not hit them soft enough for this to be feasible. What can we do??? Plexiglass? Somehow muffle? Maybe if he went electric? It seems like the acoustic sound from his percussion somehow just gets to the ears before everything else except the vocals. If I crank the tracks he will just get louder. Damn drummers ...lol

 

[Anderton]

The most effective option is a sampler with some kind of percussion-friendly controller, because then you can have whatever sounds you want at whatever volume you want. Good luck,,,

[Rumorsband]

Thanks, he seems very resistant to electronic but its getting to the point that it may the only possible realistic fix.

[dboomer]

I did a similar thing for years. Electronic drums is the only way to fly. But what you need to get him on board is a really great monitor system. Crappy monitor hold a lot of people back from liking electronic percussion.

[MrKnobs]

We are a 4 pc that plays to backing tracks. Tracks are drums, bass,horns. Live vocals, guitars, keyboards - no one uses amps - everything goes thru front of house system and mixed pretty darn good if I do say so myself. Here is my problem - live percussionist - how do I control his volume? Recent attempts to digitally record the band from off stage with hand held recorder have yielded ... The vocals and percussion up front and buried beneath that all the live and track music. He has earnestly tried hitting them softer but his chimes will overshadow the music. To the ear sometimes he sounds louder than he should but on a recording he is unusable. He wanted me to mic him off but I know he will not hit them soft enough for this to be feasible. What can we do??? Plexiglass? Somehow muffle? Maybe if he went electric? It seems like the acoustic sound from his percussion somehow just gets to the ears before everything else except the vocals. If I crank the tracks he will just get louder. Damn drummers ...lol

 

Here's how it works.

 

First, are the recorded tracks compressed? If so you will never get a balance between them and uncompressed live tracks. It's two completely different animals. So either you need uncompressed backing tracks (recommended) or compress the live tracks. Even if you turn the compressed tracks up so they're louder on a dB meter, the uncompressed tracks will have peaks that stick out, more punch, whereas the compressed tracks will be louder in the less punchy parts. The sound is very different and the human ear is very discerning. Mixing them sounds weird and wrong, especially if the compressed tracks are of instruments that are percussive, dynamic, or low frequency - exactly what you say you're doing. String pads maybe, drums no. Incredibly difficult to mix, if not outright impossible.

 

Second, what's stopping you from turning the overall volume up to where the live percussionist feels comfortable with his playing touch? Would that be too loud? In other words is there some level you can crank everyone else up to where the percussionist is happy? I ask this because sometimes the problem is what the percussionist is hearing (e.g. compressed tracks) and other times the problem is it's just the need for a quiet performance (e.g. dinner gig). If it's the latter, then there's no solution other than the plexiglass (not usually appropriate for a dinner show) or, as the other said above, try to get the percussionist to play pads with triggers. In my experience, though, only percussionists who have started on or are very used to practicing on pads will be happy / proficient switching.

 

The fact that the vocalist and live percussion are louder makes me think this is the problem. Keyboard patches are often compressed, backing track mixes are often compressed, and guitar patches are often compressed. Live vocals are not, live percussion is not.

 

So you need to think about that.

 

The quick and dirty way to fix it (not necessarily the best or cheapest) is to put a sound guy out front. Maybe even for just one gig to tell you definitively what's wrong. If I was doing sound for you and heard what you describe on the digital recorder, I would attempt to balance the house sound by turning down the vocalist and live percussionist in the fronts and adding some "more me" for them in the monitor system (you didn't say if you have one). An in ear monitoring system might be just what you need if that's the problem.

 

Worst come to worst, I would compress the two offending channels to match the compression of the recorded material - provided there was enough headroom before feedback left to do that. In an emergency, I'd try reversing the polarity on the mics at the board or sacrificing some of the tone I'd like to notch out the room feedback frequencies. But worst coming to worst should not happen very often, you need to sort this out as I've described above.

 

I know you were joking, but it's not damned drummers or damned vocalists. If you play guitar, and someone gave you a cotton ball to strum with, could you play worth anything? Even a thin pick (or lighter / heavier strings) if that's not what you usually use would make it much harder to play decisively in time and with energy. Similarly, many drummers can't get the energy they want or the timing they want without hitting hard; likewise vocalists forced to sing quietly are likely to have trouble depending on the material. Guitarists and keyboardists playing lined out patches don't that problem because they can still "hit as hard or soft as they want. The percussionist isn't trying to play loud, he's trying to play accurately and decisively.

 

And yes, I know, there are drummers and vocalists who can hit lightly and sing at a whisper and still sound good (not the same) but those are few and far between.

 

The idea is to find a way to let everyone play the instruments they're comfortable and proficient with in the way they normally play, and make the front sound work around that, not make them play differently.

 

Too Long Didn't Read Version

 

Compressed vs Full Range / Dynamic Tracks - don't blend well, record the backing tracks full range.

 

Monitor vs Mains - give the loud people more me in their personal monitors

 

Use a sound guy - like musicians, even a good one can be affordable. Even one time as a consultant.

 

Terry D.

 

P.S. I wrote so much on this topic because for years I've been performing and mixing for others both venue and internet performances where one or two musicians are "live" and the rest of the performance is backing tracks (generally backing tracks they bought). Backing tracks that are compressed with live full range vocals over them are the mark of an amateur and the performance scene is replete with them. They always sound like you described in your post.

 

Sometimes we have to go the other way (usually due to streaming bandwidth limitations, or venue volume limitations) and compress everything. That works very well provided you mix full range things together and then compress / limit the mix to get the overall average volume up. That is also an option for your band.

 

[Notes_Norton]

Electronic drums.

 

I play in a duo using backing tracks that I make myself. (Here's how I do it: http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html both how I make them and use them).

 

We play some venues where the volume needs to be low. Especially if they are eating or if we are sonic wallpaper.

 

I also play saxophone. During the low (62-75dba) sets it's difficult for me to play the sax soft enough and still get the energy level needed for the song we might be playing. Playing soft on gentle songs is easy on the sax, but for energetic songs it's difficult for me to do.

 

So I bring out the electronic sax (Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI controller with Yamaha VL70-m sound module). I can blow as hard as I want, and just use the volume control to play it quietly.

 

Then when the dance sets start, we turn the mains up, and out comes the acoustic sax when needed.

 

I play sax, flute, wind synth, guitar, drum controller and vocals on stage. My partner plays guitar, tactile MIDI controller and vocals. We can't afford FOH sound, so we do our own sound check before the guests arrive.

 

Terry mentioned compression. IMO -- Never-ever compress your backing tracks. Live music needs more dynamics than recorded music, not less. A little compression is good for radio, depending on the kind of music it works for recording, but for live backing tracks, it sucks the life out of them.

 

I've been playing with my own backing tracks for decades. I also used to be on call for a local recording studio (until the owner retired). Anyway, he told me if I compress my tracks, the would be hotter.

 

I tried it, slight compression, I forget the exact settings he recommended but it was only about 3db. Leilani and I got on stage with our new 'hotter' tracks, and we were extremely disappointed. The compression did suck the life out of them.

 

Wisely, I kept the old uncompressed tracks (all 500 of them). Next night was "aaaaah, relief, now we sound like ourselves again."

 

While my PA is mixed in mono, I record bass and drums on one stereo channel, and comp instruments on another (both panned center). That way if I need more or less bass/drums for the gig, I can tweak the volume control. Even if I need more or less snare, I can use the EQ on the drum/bass channel.

 

Since 1985 I've been tweaking my method of making and using backing tracks. When new gear or new discoveries come along, I embrace them. So it's a work in progress, trying to make it better all the time.

 

I exaggerate dynamics on my tracks. I will use a peak limiter at times to get rid of those occasional peaks that are way above the rest of the track, but that's it.

 

I bought a couple of karaoke tracks thinking I could do a quick-and-dirty song request for a wedding. Obscure songs that we would probably never play again. Too compressed. Compared to my tracks they sounded dead. So I put in the work and did them myself.

 

A waste of money? Nope a lesson.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Phil O'Keefe]

My first thought was to use a percussion controller like Craig mentioned, but Terry brings up several excellent points as well.

 

Quick question: What sorts of instruments is your live percussionist playing?

[MrKnobs]

 

Terry mentioned compression. IMO -- Never-ever compress your backing tracks. Live music needs more dynamics than recorded music, not less. A little compression is good for radio, depending on the kind of music it works for recording, but for live backing tracks, it sucks the life out of them.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

 

We're mostly in complete agreement. From my post above:

 

First, are the recorded tracks compressed? If so you will never get a balance between them and uncompressed live tracks. It's two completely different animals. So either you need uncompressed backing tracks (recommended)...

 

Compressed vs Full Range / Dynamic Tracks - don't blend well, record the backing tracks full range.

 

That's what I recommended for live, agreeing with you.

 

Sometimes we have to go the other way (usually due to streaming bandwidth limitations, or venue volume limitations) and compress everything. That works very well provided you mix full range things together and then compress / limit the mix to get the overall average volume up.

 

This is what sometimes has to be done when doing a remote performance (e.g. streaming over the Internet) to get a reasonably hot level despite the limitation in dynamic range due to the streaming process. This is in agreement with your statement "A little compression is good for radio"

 

Here is the one spot we maybe disagree:

 

 

Electronic drums.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

 

I say maybe because I run a small studio (in addition to frequently playing out with backing tracks). One day I had two clients over at the same time, one a drummer coming to record the next day and (wisely) scouting my studio the day before, and the other a guy with a very successful band that I frequently do live sound for. As it happens, both are proficient drummers.

 

Let's call recording customer Keith and live sound customer Billy because those are their names.

 

Billy is wandering around my place waiting for Keith to do his thing so he can talk to me about something. Keith is in my big room and sees my Roland V-Drum set. He asks if they're any good. I tell him that's a matter of opinion, and I tell him that honestly I always use real cymbals and I always replace the drum sounds with Steven Slate samples but the V Drum stuff is pretty good. Of course I point out that he can bring his own drum set, whatever he wants.

 

Keith says he's never tried a V Drum set before, can he try mine? Sure!

 

Keith sits down and proceeds to suck on them (and he is an amazing drummer) so he quickly tires of it and declares that V Drums suck! I wouldn't have argued with him (client is always right) but Billy is there and he sits down at the V Drums and gives an ASTONISHING performance basically leaving Keith with his "dick in the dirt" as the lads say.

 

Not something I wanted to happen!

 

However it illustrates my point. Billy OWNS a V Drum set, he practices on it before playing his actual gigs with an acoustic set. Keith has stellar chops but had never played an electronic set before. Even though my V Drum set is top of the line with mesh heads (no rubber) it was too weird for him.

 

So the moral of the story is not everyone can or wants to play electronic drums, not even percussionists. I had a percussionist in my studio about a year and a half ago, a guy who plays on major Latin albums, one of which won a Latin Grammy, and he has his very specific drums, boxes and toys he would just laugh at any plastic thing that plays samples. After hearing the nuances of his tracks, I really get it. Even awesome samples are crap compared to the real thing played by a really good player.

 

But I guess if your gig is dinner music or musical wallpaper, there is definitely something called "good enough."

 

I think you made this point very well with what you said here:

 

 

Playing soft on gentle songs is easy on the sax, but for energetic songs it's difficult for me to do.

 

 

This corresponds to my statement:

 

Similarly, many drummers can't get the energy they want or the timing they want without hitting hard; likewise vocalists forced to sing quietly are likely to have trouble depending on the material.

 

In retrospect, I think I might have muddied the waters in my post by describing what a soundman would have to do to fix a situation where the backing tracks were compressed. That happens, and you have to make whatever the snake is sending you work, but ideally there should not be compressed material coming from the stage.

 

Notes, it's always a pleasure discussing stuff like this with you! You're obviouisly a seasoned professional with a lot of experience in this area.

 

Terry D.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rumorsband]

Thanks all - Will try to answer / address comments and questions,,, Our live percussionist is using congas, bongo's, a small cymbal , chimes, tambourine, shakers. Is my music compressed ? I don't really know ... ..99% of my tracks were midi files that I converted to first as an audio wave file and then to 128Kbps CD Quaiity Mp3 files using sound forge. Would this process automatically use compression? If not, I never chose a compression option.I have over 250 songs so to undo if possible would still be a daunting task. When we play as a duo without the percussion my mix is pretty much perfect with the live keyboards and guitars added. As far as raising my volume to meet his - that's not going to happen. My point about vocals is that we "want" the vocals up front slightly louder than the music... but the percussionist is as loud as the vocals. The other 1% of the songs I use are karaoke versions of songs that I couldn't find a good midi version of. Now these do sound "different" from my other midi converted files. So based on this info am I using compression? Is so, what would I have to do to change that?

Now I have gone out into the audience when I can step away ... and although sometimes he sounds a bit louder than I would like - it is not like on tape. Example: I Will Survive - Gloria Gaynor. The opening is "at first I was afraid " part just a piano... he runs his hand on the chimes at this part and on tape it literally drowns out the piano. I feel compression (even if I am unknowingly using it) has nothing at all to do with that. It almost sounds like acoustic instruments travel faster than tracks .... is that possible.

Seems like electronic is really the only sure fix, so I can be in complete control of the mix... kind of like a dictator...

 

 

[MikeRivers]

. ..99% of my tracks were midi files that I converted to first as an audio wave file and then to 128Kbps CD Quaiity Mp3 files using sound forge. Would this process automatically use compression?

 

While it's possible to have dynamic range with MIDI, it tends to be limited unless it's a recording of live playing. If your MIDI files were either commercial products or songs you found on the web, while they may not have been run through a compressor, they probably have little dynamic range. It would be easy for an expressive percussionist to either get lost in the mix in some places and bust out of the mix in other places, or get really bored trying to play with little dynamic expression.

 

we "want" the vocals up front slightly louder than the music... but the percussionist is as loud as the vocals. The other 1% of the songs I use are karaoke versions of songs that I couldn't find a good midi version of. Now these do sound "different" from my other midi converted files. So based on this info am I using compression? Is so, what would I have to do to change that?

 

Karaoke tracks are almost certainly compressed, probably a lot. But I don't think compression is the issue. Your percussionist just isn't listening to the rest of the "band." Tell him to back off and play at a more consistent level, or find another percussionist. Keyboards and guitars are pretty easy to control so you're probably following the dynamics pretty closely without even thinking very hard about it. Some drummers can do this, but the rest, if that's the job, just suck. It's one of the reasons why we have so many drummer jokes - too many drummers just don't listen (and respond to) what everyone else is playing. They figure they have the loudest instrument, so everybody else should follow them. Of course none of this applies to any of the drummers here on this forum.

 

Now I have gone out into the audience when I can step away ... and although sometimes he sounds a bit louder than I would like - it is not like on tape.

 

Well, maybe, then, he is OK, and you're just not mixing him correctly in the recording. If he's the only one miked other than the vocalists, he could just be too loud in the mix. Except for things like chimes, unless you're playing large venues, there's probaby enough sound from the congas, etc. coming off the stage so they don't need amplification, or at least not much. I gather you're recording the house mix. How are you setting that mix up?

 

 

[MrKnobs]

Well, maybe, then, he is OK, and you're just not mixing him correctly in the recording. If he's the only one miked other than the vocalists, he could just be too loud in the mix.

 

 

This!

 

Mike, good pointing out that MIDI can be low dynamic range too.

 

(1) Put a soundman out there AND the recorder.

 

(2) If you like the recording later, ask the soundman what he had to do to get it.

 

When I used to run sound for country acts, I would get so sick of (a) people's girlfriends making them paranoid about the FOH sound, (b) the musicians listening to a board tape from a small indoor show and worrying about how it sounds out front.

 

Large outdoor shows without wind are a blank canvas for a sound guy to paint on. No room reverberation (just a little slap from buildings), no significant volume out front from the stage sound. I took advantage of those times to play back a song from earlier in the night through the fronts AFTER the band left the stage so they could hear exactly what they sounded like.

 

If you can, do something like that too; recordings can sound very different than what the audience hears. You're not making a board tape, are you? I took your initial post to mean something like a Zoom recorder set up on a mic stand in the audience. Even if you did THAT right, putting the recorder near a wall or a low ceiling or with something in between the band and the recorder can massively change the sound.

 

Terry D.

[Rumorsband]

Thanks guys for all the input. Yes it was Zoom like recorder sitting on a table about 10-15 feet away. To clarify _ no one uses any amps - we all run direct into the mixer and out FOH except for the live un mic'd percussionist.

Now you may or may not find this of interest. . I just got off the phone with our old guitarist who was in the audience last weekend. He was in the middle to back of room and he said the mix was damn near perfect. He said he could each and evey instrument, vocals et all clean and clearly. He said the percussionist blended in fine. IF HE HEARD MY RECORDING - he would not say that.???? One final probably stupid question. Is there something about acoustic sound thatmakes I travel to a source faster than from out of a speaker? Are the "ears" on a recorder different than people "ears"? I am verclemped...but tomorrow night I will record direct off my mixer and I will almost guarantee a recording that I can just about pst on y website with little to no editing...

 

[MikeRivers]

Yes it was Zoom like recorder sitting on a table about 10-15 feet away. To clarify _ no one uses any amps - we all run direct into the mixer and out FOH except for the live un mic'd percussionist.

 

Now you may or may not find this of interest. . I just got off the phone with our old guitarist who was in the audience last weekend. He was in the middle to back of room and he said the mix was damn near perfect. He said he could each and evey instrument, vocals et all clean and clearly. He said the percussionist blended in fine.

 

Is there something about acoustic sound thatmakes I travel to a source faster than from out of a speaker? Are the "ears" on a recorder different than people "ears"?

 

That's exactly the problem. Your recorder (or, in reality, your recording microphone) is in the wrong place. All sound in the same room travels at the same speed, but it doesn't all arrive from the same path. The recorder may be in a position where it's closer to the percussionist than to the speakers, so that's what it's "hearing" the most of. A good first step would probably be to get the recorder up higher so it's close to the height of the speakers. Put the recorder where your old guitarist was sitting, and remember that his ears were a couple of feet higher than the table where he was sitting.

 

When the band is warming up, walk around the room and listen for a spot where the mix is balanced. Stick a finger in one ear so you're hearing in mono and you won't have as much help from your brain sorting out what it expects the sound to be like. Really.

 

As an aside, how's your recording level? Do you have the recorder's limiter turned on? Make sure the limiter is off and set the record level conservatively so that the meters only go about half way up most of the time. It could be that if the limiter (or other automatic record level setting) is active, you could be effectively compressing the recording. The limiter is there to protect you from unexpected loud sounds spoiling your recording. It's not a substitute for setting the record level correctly. If your recording is too quiet when you play it back (and if you set the level correctly for a live show, it will be too quiet), you can boost the level in "post production" when you get the recording ready for public consumption.

 

 

[Rumorsband]

Thanks Mike - very logical explanation. The problem with putting the recorder so far back in the room will be the crowd noise. Raising the level of the recorder is a fantastic suggestion. At the table it was picking up conversations, plates and glasses being put down etc. Plus it was well bellow the height of the top speakers. Recording levels were about 1/2 way. I did use the mic gain switch on low - on high it kept red lining. is that the limiter?

[MikeRivers]

Thanks Mike - very logical explanation. The problem with putting the recorder so far back in the room will be the crowd noise. Raising the level of the recorder is a fantastic suggestion. At the table it was picking up conversations' date=' plates and glasses being put down etc. Plus it was well bellow the height of the top speakers. Recording levels were about 1/2 way. I did use the mic gain switch on low - on high it kept red lining. is that the limiter?[/quote']

 

You need to get the mics above the heads of the crowd. That way it won't pick up a lot of talking and table noises, but it will pick up plenty of applause (assuming they're paying attention to your show). You don't want to have it too far back, though, or else the reverberant sound in the room will overpower the direct sound from the speakers. This is another thing that the mic "hears" differently than your ears.

 

Setting the level on these recorders properly is really important, particularly since you're on stage playing and can't monitor the meters. How best to set levels depends on the particular recorder. I have a Zoom H2, and on that recorder, if you're recording a fairly loud source (which you probably are), even at the high gain setting, you can use the level control to get the meters to stay well in the "normal" range and the recording will still be distorted, because the level control comes after the mic preamp stage.

 

On the Zoom H2 (and the H4 is the same), the indicator for the record level (it's a number on the LCD) goes from 0 to 127, and it has a low/medium/high switch for mic gain. I'll start with the record level control set to 100, and then set the gain switch so that the meters are peaking somewhere around half scale. I can then make a fine adjustment with the record level control, usually upward. If I have to drop the record level much below 100 in order to keep the meters on scale, I need less mic gain. I also have a TASCAM DR-40 and DR-44WL and neither of those have a problem with the mic preamp overloading. They don't have a separate gain switch, and you can turn a high level signal all the way down without clipping. Most newer recorders are like this, but you should check yours out.

 

The limiter is a separate function. Some have a mechanical switch for it, others have it on a menu. RTFM or peruse your recorder's menus, find the limiter and any other means it provides for automatic volume control, and turn it off.

 

You might want to check out the article on my web site with tips on using a handheld recorder: https://mikeriversaudio.files.wordpr...order_2012.pdf

 

If you're ready to buy a new recorder and this is the sort of work you'll be doing with it, you might consider one of the new TASCAM recorders that can be remote-controlled from a mobile device app via WiFi. You can put the recorder in the best place you can get it, and from the stage, monitor the record level and adjust it if necessary. The DR-22WL is pretty cheap and is a basic stereo recorder that's simple to operate. The DR-44WL is more expensive and offers many more features.

[Rumorsband]

My goal was to prove I could make a decent live recording and if so then I was going to buy a Zoom (Q8??? ) not sure of the model video recorder. This recorder had great audio specs so I thought id get both audio and video

[MikeRivers]

To paraphrase . . . Recorders don't make good recordings, people make good recordings. Spend some time experimenting with placement and you'll get the hang of it.