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How many takes is enough?


davie

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While you record in the studio, or just recording in general, how many takes do you allow yourself to record? Living in an age of technology and DAW recording, we can easily fall into the trap of "unlimited takes syndrome". Recording in the past, you were only given a certain number of takes and tracks due to time constraints and tape limit. What you had at the end of the day was what you had to stick with. Nowadays I see a lot of people getting into the habit of taking 10+ takes sometimes. The issue that I find is that this hinders the whole creative process. You lose that sense of urgency and projects get pushed back farther and farther. Also the mixing process becomes less productive as well. So my question is, do you limit the number of takes you're allowed to record? If so, then how many takes? This concept and idea might especially apply to those doing recording at home, where you aren't always "on the clock". Please give me your thoughts on this.

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Depends. But generally, when the takes stop getting better, I stop.

 

If I think it's an off day, I'll stop.

 

If that's the best I can do (or the talent can do), then I take the best take, copy it, and then comp wherever there might be better takes. I generally strongly dislike doing more than about five or six takes unless there's some compelling reason for it or I am improvising, and I tend to mark stuff that I really like as I go, especially if I am recording someone else and have the time.

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Two. One that's good enough to use and the other just for good measure.

 

If the first take isn't good enough, you go back and practice some more and stop recording. A complete performance shouldn't be a patchwork of lucky breaks during recording. But I know that's the way it's done.

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A lot of this also depends on whether you are working out the parts while recording them, or they are a well-rehearsed song.

 

If working out parts, who knows, keep going until I get something that's cool.

 

If it's a part that I've already rehearsed, I should be able to nail it within 2-3 attempts, and normally do, usually doing one good take, and then doing one or two more in case I like the feel more or I edit one part in that feels better or some such thing.

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Hey guys, thanks for your "take" on this.. lol. I'm just trying allot time accordingly and trying to maintain productive overall.

 

I agree it might vary, especially when you're still coming up with stuff, which in my opinion shouldn't really count towards the recording takes limit. I would count that towards the arrangement/composing process. Practice/rehearsal should be considered separate as well. Tracking all the instruments on a song by yourself may seem tough, especially if you're not proficient at all the instruments. I think I might be lending towards a 3-4 take limit for each track/part. And maybe allow myself a choice of 2-3 extra re-takes for specific parts, at the end. Just in case I'm not totally happy with the result.

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Multitakes for comping?

 

I'm not suggesting this would work for someone else but what I do is... 3 whole song takes minimum, and usually just 3. But, if after 3 I find I really haven't hit it just yet I'll do as many as 10 for just a section or a line even. Whole takes rock. Cut into it and replace if needed. and further if you "have to". but the immediacy of the track goes down accordingly. Sometimes you have to take the trade-off but I don't go there without realizing that trade-off and making the choice with taste intact.

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I used to be a first call sax players at a medium sized town recording studio. It closed when the owner had a stroke and with the proliferation of home recording gear, nobody has taken his place.

 

They called me "a one take jake" because the only time I needed two takes was if there was a technical flaw on the first one. I did prepare for the gigs a bit and most of the music was pop/rock/country/light jazz and not too technical.

 

I don't do commercial type recordings at home, but I do make my own backing tracks and record myself live at the gig for self-improvement purposes.

 

My backing tracks are done live into a MIDI sequencer, and more often than not, I use the first take unless I screw up the rhythm (wrong notes are easy to fix in MIDI).

 

Insights and incites by Notes

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Most of the stuff I do is written on the spot so there may be some creative liberties taken getting the basics down. The main items are usually done in a single take and I'll sight read the part while playing if necessary. Sometimes when playing another instrument like bass, keys or doing vocals I may need to experiment finding a comfortable part to play but I don't usually record when coming up with those parts, I just jam with the existing tracks.

 

Later when I do record I admit, I may run out of steam playing one of those instruments or have an issue with my voice. I'll usually just stop at that point and just punch in for the rest. I rarely if ever redo the entire track during that session. I may do it several days later if the first attempt wasn't up to my standards.

 

There has to be something drastically wrong with my sound quality for me to have to go through all that trouble and even then it may not be a problem with that track. It may be the backing just isn't strong enough to carry that part.

 

If its a good song I'd be more inclined to just start the whole song over from scratch then to do patch work using band aids over the sore spots. I played live and recorded analog for too many years to change my habits at this point. I know my best material always occurs when I can do a great take.

 

Building a Frankenstein recording is a whole different thing. It can sound good but it usually doesn't have the same flow of emotion when its built from bits and scraps salvaged together and it just doesn't get me there.

 

If I "cant" play it all the way through in the studio I wouldn't be able to play it all the way through live. I want to know my recordings are live and do not have all that editing. Sound wise I could care less. I'll tweak it as much as needed mixing but the actual notes have to have that unbroken emotional stream for me to respect and enjoy it.

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I don't spend a whole lot of time on takes. I probably don't do enough takes actually. But I spend a whole lot of time coming up with parts. Probably too much time coming up with parts. I can spend days, weeks or months coming up with parts. I will listen to a rough draft of a song in my car for weeks thinking about what it might need. Then I'll try different ideas. I will record lots of rough ideas most of which never get used. Then I spend lot of time trying to decide which parts to use and which parts not to use. Sometimes my computer will crash because I have so many tracks. But most of them are muted and not actually playing.

 

The main thing I try to get right is the feel. There are mistakes in a lot of my songs but I will sometimes choose takes with mistakes in them if they feel right to me over takes that may be technically right but don't have the right feel. Of course I guess I could sit there and play more and more takes until they are both technically right and feel right but It would take an inordinate amount of time and I guess I'm kind of lazy in that way. I think a few sloppy takes here and there can add a little character to a song. I usually don't do more than about six or seven takes for each part at most.

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No limit. Could be one magic take blessed by the gods, or could work on something all day. That's how it always was before we had all the digital tools to micro-correct everything. I see people doing fewer takes these days than back in the day because you can "fix it." I don't do it that way, but so many others do.

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<...snip...>

Building a Frankenstein recording is a whole different thing. It can sound good but it usually doesn't have the same flow of emotion when its built from bits and scraps salvaged together and it just doesn't get me there.

<...>

 

I'm with you on that. There are people who can assemble a song from different parts, as an editor can assemble a move from various takes. I don't have the patience for that. I just want to get in the zone and play. That's my bliss.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

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I used to get caught up in multiple takes...mainly because I was sort of nervous and made myself screw up a part.

 

Generally I try to lay down new ideas as they come up raw...a lot of times I can construct from there. After I get the idea I want then I can re-arrange on the second time around.

 

So, I guess I USED to do a TON of takes, now I'm more comfortable so it flows out easier. It also helps if I'm already in the mode and someone else handles setting up the tracks. I hate pushing play then having to try and draw out emotion from my playing.

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I used to get caught up in multiple takes...mainly because I was sort of nervous and made myself screw up a part.

 

Generally I try to lay down new ideas as they come up raw...a lot of times I can construct from there. After I get the idea I want then I can re-arrange on the second time around.

 

So, I guess I USED to do a TON of takes, now I'm more comfortable so it flows out easier. It also helps if I'm already in the mode and someone else handles setting up the tracks. I hate pushing play then having to try and draw out emotion from my playing.

 

The weird thing for me is I'm more likely to screw up a take when I'm at home by myself. When I'm in the studio and other people are pushing the buttons I seem to play better. I think part of it is I'm thinking "this is costing money so I better get it right " but also I don't have to think about setting levels and pushing buttons.

 

I once practiced a piano piece for weeks in preparation for going into the studio. I could rarely play it all the way through with out making a mistake and assumed I would just play it as far as I could get and then punch in the rest but I nailed it in the first take.

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Craig wrote a great article on this subject a few years ago called "The Performance Curve." You should definitely check it out Davie.

 

In it, he describes the various different ways people tend to respond in the studio. With some folks, you have to get that first take, because that's generally where they deliver the goods, and their performances tend to get worse after that first pass. With others, they are slower to get going, and takes tend to get better and better - at least up to a point; after that point, they tire and the quality of the performances drops fast. Other musicians and singers are more consistent and tend to give performances of similar quality take after take, while others are all over the place and you never know which take is going to be the keeper.

 

I generally will wax three or four takes, although I've certainly done considerably more than that when needed... you do as many as you need to until you get what you're after, and it's going to be different for each individual, and even for different songs.

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Yesterday was a perfect example. I hadn't played much during the week and I went in the studio this weekend to finish up on some missing parts. The rest of the tracks were ready to go and even mixed pretty good to add those final leads.

 

When I started tracking however I knew I wasn't in the pocket, nor was the guitar I was using. It needed a string change and I thought I could eek out a few more tracks before I had to do a string change. I was wrong. The wear on the 4th string especially had grooves in it and the song I was doing was full of string bends. I was fighting the instrument so much it wore me out just doing practice takes and the part wound up sounding worse then the scratch track I had the week before.

 

This all comes down to feeling comfortable with your instrument and knowing you are physically and mentally prepped to play the part before you begin. If your instrument is in need of maintenance and becomes a distraction you're not going to focus on your playing (or focus on it too much) and miss taking those opportunities to pull off those fancy details that make the part stand out above the rest.

 

I spent about 2 hours before deciding to hang it up for the day and went and changed my strings that night. I had just installed a new bridge on that guitar and needed to do some fine tweaks with new strings.

 

Come Sunday I went back and did the parts and it was like day and night. I had a super groove going and the guitar was doing what it was supposed to. Tone was there, parts were there and the song mixed itself when I was done. The most I may have to do is some touch up work on the vocals but even those weren't that bad considering my voice isn't that great.

 

This all goes to show you, there can be many reasons why you may have to do multiple takes, especially when things aren't going your way. I could have taken the 4 or 5 takes I did Saturday and spliced them to get something decent. Some of the stuff was actually quite good, but again some of it was choke city. Even if I got something good I probably wouldn't be happy with it. I'm my own worse critic and I wind up focusing on finding flaws to edit out instead judging its merits.

 

Then there's the time factor. I re-tracked the part nearly flawless in 5 minutes and I was done.

 

How long would it have taken me to edit 4 versions and come up with one solid piece? An hours time at least, but I'd have to listen to those 4 bad takes several times, mark out their flawed areas and best areas on a time line, then figure out where they could be spliced together most effectively.

 

I don't know about others but I reserve doing that kind of grunt work for when I'm being paid. I've done enough editing to know how monotonous it can be and Its by no means a short cut to getting a good recording. Its RX through and through. When you have a band come in you do extra tracks just so you can make those minor fixes because the musicians and whatever gear they used wont be there when you're mixing. All you have are the tracks they left and its easier to do them then to not have them and have to get them back.

 

Tracking your own stuff? Screw all that crap. I'll choose plugging in and redoing the part over dicing and splicing any day of the week. Its just so much faster and after a few listening with fresh ears you can hear what needs to be fixed and just punch those parts in.

 

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The weird thing for me is I'm more likely to screw up a take when I'm at home by myself. When I'm in the studio and other people are pushing the buttons I seem to play better. I think part of it is I'm thinking "this is costing money so I better get it right " but also I don't have to think about setting levels and pushing buttons.

 

Sounds like it's either something where you focus more when you are in that situation because of the pressure, or you maybe shine more when you are playing for others. Or maybe a little of both.

 

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I'm my own worse critic and I wind up focusing on finding flaws to edit out instead judging its merits.

 

 

I think everybody does this to an extent.

 

I played a guitar solo recently and told the singer it was just a scratch track and that I would redo it later. The timing is a little off and some notes are kind of smeared together. They told me it was perfect and not to change it. Now that I've listened to it for a while I tend to almost agree. It has the right feel but there is still one note I'd like to change.

 

Sometimes getting other people's opinions can help you make the right decision. This particular song originally had a keyboard solo but the singer hated it. I was resistant to try something else but I reluctantly did a guitar solo and they loved it. I now think the keyboard solo was completely out of place but it took someone else to point it out to me.

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