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Cakewalk's Sonar also goes to subscription model - will Magic Craig comment?


nat whilk II

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So far on the website they are saying once you pay either an annual upfront fee or 12 months of installments, the software will run for as long as you want it to run. In other words, you don't have to keep re-upping to keep the software from shutting down or otherwise becoming unusable.

 

And the continual updating during the subscription period can be at the discretion of the user, too. Update or not, and when or if you want to.

 

So that all sounds good.

 

Sonar has had some ups and downs, but I still think it's a heck of a product, so I'm staying on board for now.

 

The only little question-mark filled thought balloon tethered to my head says this, "well, how will this effect what the software costs me over time???"

 

In years past, I've always worked my Cakewalk purchases in full-tilt cheapskate mode - I skip upgrades, I wait and wait and wait until Cakewalk sweetens the deal with a special upgrade offer for the loyal-but-laggards like me (which so far they have done without fail.)

 

If the new subscription model results in a significant increase in my cost, I'll have to at least consider the very capable and inexpensive or even free alternatives out there (Reaper, etc.).

 

Craig - you got any insight, comments, revelations, rants, suggestions, prophecies, secrets from the board room?

 

nat whilk ii

 

 

 

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I don't drive the ship, I only go on the cruises :) However, if I had to guess, I'd say there will likely be occasional specials offered to members to renew their membership - "renew now, and save 20%" or whatever. I also suspect that as usual, the cost of upgrades will scale so the longer you've dropped out, the higher the cost...although it isn't the case now, given that there's a generous upgrade path for owners of per-acquisition versions.

 

But I also think that Cakewalk feels people will like the new updates and want to renew. They can do it with monthly payments so they don't have to stretch too far.

 

I will say Cakewalk has put a huge amount of thought and planning into this. The company believes this program will create happy customers overall, which will lead to a more successful company, which can hire more developers, who can do more updates, which will make happier customers, the company becomes more successful...rinse, lather, repeat.

 

Personally, I'm very excited and going to do everything possible at my end in terms of content to insure its success.

 

 

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Thx for the response - that's all encouraging. I hope the user base rallies to the new subscription model - some grousing is inevitable, but it's not like Cakewalk behaves anything like Adobe or some other user-base-abusing outfit.

 

I hope they let you spend time on your specialty digital amp modelings - that's fascinating stuff and makes total sense, optimizing the unique strengths of digital modeling and instead of just turning out endless emulations of old tube amps and so on.

 

nat whilk ii

 

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Well here's an update...after initial confusion and some trolling, people have figured out it's a really good deal and a ton of users have signed on. The initial reaction is very positive, it's a smoother rollout than X3 and so far, no showstopper bugs.

 

The amps have been extremely well-received, so Cakewalk and the user base wants me to do more amps and effects...no problem!

 

So overall, it's going very well. What a relief.

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I can't complain about the Cakewalk people. (is 12tonesytems even theirs anymore?) . They have been very fair with their upgrade pricing. I only had Sonar 2.2 and an LE version of Sonar from 5 years ago and they gave me X3 Studio for $50. I can't complain about that !!

 

Dan

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Will I still get patch fixes even if I'm not an active SONAR Member?

No. You will need an active SONAR Membership to receive fixes and updates

,

Will I still get tech support if I'm not an active SONAR Member?

Technical support is available for active memberships only.

 

So updates and tech support do stop after one year.

I've used tech support years after I've purchased previous versions of Sonar.

And if I'm not mistaken some versions of Sonar's updates came out over a year after their initial release.

Why should you have to renew your membership in order to get fixes and tech support if you paid for the product outright?

 

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I think you're right - once the subscription runs out, not just the feature updates, but the technical updates - bug fixes and such - will stop. If anyone knows better, please speak up.

 

That's a potential problem if you want to just keep running an older version on and on. But I can see a software provider's point of view - just how many old versions do you have to keep supporting? They all cut off at some point - this forces the issue to cut off annually. If Cakewalk is good about getting all the important bugs ironed out within the year, then you'd be good to go with the old version for a long time.

 

I'm inclined to be ok with the new subscription model even if it forces me out of some of my old frugal ways a bit. It's still cheap in the big scheme of things. And this is a sea change for the software industry in general, going to the subscription model. Maybe it will help regularize the income stream for the company and make planning and budgeting less iffy and chaotic. That would probably result in a better product all round.

 

nat whilk ii

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Phone support stops after a year. I,m not sure if email support may still be available, and of course, the forums provide excellent peer-to-peer support. There are also companies like Obedia that offer support on a per-incident basis for a lot less than, say, Apple.

 

 

As to bug fixes/updates it's really no different than it was before. A new version came out pretty much yearly. Once the new version came out, no more bug fixes were released for previous versions. It's just too much time and effort to do regression testing on previous versions as well as the current version. Factoring the additional testing into the price of the software would make it non-competitive. I don't expect an update for, say, SONAR X2 to appear any more than I would expect one for Cubase 6.

 

However, Cakewalk has stated that if a show-stopper bug appears, they will likely make it available regardless. So if you get some great new feature in June, you decided not to renew in July, and there was a major bug in the June feature that got fixed in August, if Cakewalk deems it serious enough you'll be able to download it. That's one of the advantages of the new modular installer they've implemented.

 

To me there are two big upsides to the membership plan. First, you get to keep what you buy - authorizations don't expire if you don't renew. Second, you get new features as they become available instead of having to wait for a big update. I also think people will like the content they get each month. Then there's also the issue of increased stability. Issuing and QCing one feature at a time is much easier than issuing and QCing multiple changes that might all affect each other.

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Couple of things come to mind - one is that it's not that uncommon for people to want to regress to an older version of software. Maybe they don't like the newest version - changes to the interface, forced upgrade of the underlying OS, lack of time to mess with a never-ending stream of incremental learning curves, heavily used or beloved features that are dropped in a new version, etc. Will this be possible for people running just one copy on one machine?

 

And if people are like me - I always run two copies of all my DAW and other music software on two computers - one out in my little studio where I track, one in the house where things are more comfortable for extended editing or programming sessions, etc. I want stability above all in the tracking setup so I can get things done without always messing with updates, versions, bugs, learning curves, etc etc. So the tracking computer is often an older version on an older OS than the one in the house. In the house, the "editing" computer is where I'll get used to the new DAW and OS versions relatively painlessly. By the time I port the tracking computer over to new software versions, I'm already pretty used to the new software. Nothing disturbs my placid personality more than going out to track only to find that today, for some mysterious computer reason, something is not working and my limited time for tracking is blown while I hunt and peck and cuss over Options and Settings and downloading updates and looking at the manual and the support section of the website and online boards for help.

 

Cakewalk would do well to accommodate people running a version at least one step behind (or "year" behind I guess would be more accurate now.) Lots of studios, serious home recordists, and schools stay on an older version for at least a while. Even seems like a market of sorts, no?

 

nat whilk ii

 

 

 

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I will say Cakewalk has put a huge amount of thought and planning into this. The company believes this program will create happy customers overall, which will lead to a more successful company, which can hire more developers, who can do more updates, which will make happier customers, the company becomes more successful...rinse, lather, repeat.

 

Personally, I'm very excited and going to do everything possible at my end in terms of content to insure its success.

 

As someone who works in a global software company, this sounds like a typical Sales Rep or VP response. They tried to find a way to make more money, period. Business is business. And I am about to upgrade to Platinum so I am a Cakewalk supporter.

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I read that if people buy a years subscription and don't want to renew it after a year, they can keep the version they have at that point and simply not receive any new upgrades or support.

 

I was worried that the program would shut down and the person would be stuck with unfinished projects held for ransom until the program was reactivated. From this perspective the deal doesn't look as bad as it did. You'd pay at least $200 for some version of sonar and other then the initial bug fixes its basically unsupported.

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I read that if people buy a years subscription and don't want to renew it after a year, they can keep the version they have at that point and simply not receive any new upgrades or support.

 

I was worried that the program would shut down and the person would be stuck with unfinished projects held for ransom until the program was reactivated. From this perspective the deal doesn't look as bad as it did. You'd pay at least $200 for some version of sonar and other then the initial bug fixes its basically unsupported.

 

 

Yes, that's how it reads to me, too. I would think some auto-shutdown format would result in corporate suicide at least as far as that product line goes.

 

nat whilk ii

 

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Phone support stops after a year. I,m not sure if email support may still be available, and of course, the forums provide excellent peer-to-peer support. There are also companies like Obedia that offer support on a per-incident basis for a lot less than, say, Apple.

 

I'm still on Sonar 7 and there are things I still don't understand about it. I've used email support years after it first came out.

A lot of people are recording hobbyists and may not have the time or know how to learn everything there is to know about a particular program.

 

However' date=' Cakewalk has stated that if a show-stopper bug appears, they will likely make it available regardless.[/quote']What about non show stoppers and who determines which bugs are show stoppers and which aren't ?

If you've paid in full, shouldn't ALL bugs be fixed?

 

To me there are two big upsides to the membership plan. First' date=' you get to keep what you buy - authorizations don't expire if you don't renew. Second, you get new features as they become available instead of having to wait for a big update. I also think people will like the content they get each month. Then there's also the issue of increased stability. Issuing and QCing one feature at a time is much easier than issuing and QCing multiple changes that might all affect each other.[/quote']

 

I've always got to keep any program I bought so I don't see how this could be considered an upside.

New features as they become available instead of having to wait for a big update could be done with an upfront purchase.

 

I can understand having a monthly payment plan but why would anyone subscribe to a software program that they don't plan on eventually owning?

 

 

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I'm still on Sonar 7 and there are things I still don't understand about it. I've used email support years after it first came out.

A lot of people are recording hobbyists and may not have the time or know how to learn everything there is to know about a particular program.

 

Tech support is more about things that don't work or cause problems. There are online resources like the forums, CakeTV, the blog, etc. At this point there's enough of a body of knowledge about SONAR you can pretty much find what you need on the web.

 

What about non show stoppers and who determines which bugs are show stoppers and which aren't ?

If you've paid in full, shouldn't ALL bugs be fixed?

 

Cakewalk, and most software companies, don't release bug fixes for versions that are no longer for sale because the price of regression testing fixes usually isn't factored into the price of software. For example once X3 came out, there were no more bug fixes for X2. However, rolling out one feature at a time should allow for more stable releases, easier QA, and quicker bug fixes. That was a big incentive for doing monthly updates instead of big, complicated yearly rollouts.

 

I've always got to keep any program I bought so I don't see how this could be considered an upside.

New features as they become available instead of having to wait for a big update could be done with an upfront purchase.

 

You can buy the software upfront, as you always did. Same with updates. The only difference is now you have another option.

 

I can understand having a monthly payment plan but why would anyone subscribe to a software program that they don't plan on eventually owning?

 

Ask anyone who uses Adobe products, or pays monthly for Avid's or Steven Slate's software. The difference with Slate and Avid compared to Adobe is you can still pay upfront and get full authorization. Not so with Adobe.

 

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Phone support stops after a year. I' date='m not sure if email support may still be available, and of course, the forums provide excellent peer-to-peer support. There are also companies like Obedia that offer support on a per-incident basis for a lot less than, say, Apple.[/quote']

 

 

Apple's never charged me for an incident for anything ever. :idk:

 

(I know they offer paid support after the free support runs out, but I've just pushed zero, gotten an operator, and they transfer me to someone who can answer my question).

 

Plus, full-blown Logic is $200, while full-blown Cakewalk is $500.

 

Cakewalk would have to have something mind blowing in it that Logic doesn't for me to switch. :idk:

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Apple's never charged me for an incident for anything ever. :idk:

 

 

 

(I know they offer paid support after the free support runs out, but I've just pushed zero, gotten an operator, and they transfer me to someone who can answer my question).

 

Good to know!!

 

Plus, full-blown Logic is $200, while full-blown Cakewalk is $500.

 

Cakewalk would have to have something mind blowing in it that Logic doesn't for me to switch. :idk:

 

Well, Logic doesn't run on Windows if you have a Windows machine...but SONAR has quite a few unique features. The question is whether or not they matter to you.

  • Mix Recall - very powerful, save and recall different mixes, bring elements of one mix into another
  • Touch support - don't need to buy Slate's Raven :)
  • Probably the best comping of any DAW
  • Monthly updates, fixes, and content.
  • DSD import/export - archival storage as well as more clients are asking for DSD masters due to easy decimation to PCM
  • Matrix view - very much like Ableton's Session View
  • Cooler guitar amps :)
  • Supports VST2, VST3, and DirectX so you have a lot of choices for plug-ins
  • Effects Chains are a really cool feature
  • Can create, edit, and save Acidized files - there are a lot of Acid-format libraries, and quite a few of them need tweaking for best results
  • It's subjective, but I'd say the workflow is smoother, especially with things like the new control bar
  • You can create your own mixer architecture (e.g., a vocal strip can be more Trident, a drum strip more SSL)
  • The QuadCurve EQ is great, gives four different responses from Pultec-ish to surgical
  • You can load your own IRs into the convolution reverb (not sure if Logic does this or not)
  • VocalSync - similar to VocAlign, but a lot less $$
  • ARA integration for Melodyne and upcoming modules, like the Drum Replacer
  • Monophonic audio-to-MIDI conversion
  • Bi-directional media browser​

There are also a lot of third-party add-ons.

 

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Cakewalk, and most software companies, don't release bug fixes for versions that are no longer for sale because the price of regression testing fixes usually isn't factored into the price of software.

 

 

I understand that. I'm just wondering what would happen if your subscription ends before the new version is released.

Lets say a bug needs fixing or a feature is released after you have completely paid for the product.

You have to renew your subscription to get the fix or new feature? Doesn't sound fair to me.

 

Ask anyone who uses Adobe products, or pays monthly for Avid's or Steven Slate's software. The difference with Slate and Avid compared to Adobe is you can still pay upfront and get full authorization. Not so with Adobe.

I don't know anything about these companies software products.

I'd never heard of subscription software until this thread.

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I read that if people buy a years subscription and don't want to renew it after a year, they can keep the version they have at that point and simply not receive any new upgrades or support.

 

I was worried that the program would shut down and the person would be stuck with unfinished projects held for ransom until the program was reactivated. From this perspective the deal doesn't look as bad as it did. You'd pay at least $200 for some version of sonar and other then the initial bug fixes its basically unsupported.

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Adobe went to (more or less) this model starting in 2014 or thereabouts.

 

Was a lot of grumbling at the outset, but, in the end, nearly everyone got over it and now it's just how graphic / photo designer/editor folks do it now. Seems to work fine.

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I was worried that the program would shut down and the person would be stuck with unfinished projects held for ransom until the program was reactivated.

 

Well if you quit paying before you've paid it off in full then I guess that's what would happen. That's what I'm having trouble grasping. I would think anybody who subscribes is planning on paying for the whole twelve months so they would own it. Otherwise what's the point?

 

Maybe they figure they can get more customers who can't afford the whole price upfront this way.

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Well if you quit paying before you've paid it off in full then I guess that's what would happen. That's what I'm having trouble grasping. I would think anybody who subscribes is planning on paying for the whole twelve months so they would own it. Otherwise what's the point?

 

Maybe they figure they can get more customers who can't afford the whole price upfront this way.

 

I didn't read what the payments would be. It may be a single charge once a year. If you did pay the full $200 up front then you'd have all the upgrades for a year and then you'd have to decide to go another year.

 

I don't see this as a good buy for most single users based on the upgrades I've done. I went from sonar producer 4 to 8 and other then the plugins added the software was virtually identical. I recently upgraded again to X1 and other then the channel strip and GUI changes, its not much of an upgrade and in fact many ways is more cumbersome to use.

 

I'm not going to bother with X2 or X3 at this point. I'm not sure what the subscription version has to offer besides steady paychecks for the code writers.

 

My point is if you're running a full time studio and have a steady money flow working then having the support in back of the subscription is a good way to go. This is nothing new to IT departments that support a companies network and corporate software. My company not only does this for their main business software but they also hardware that has specific business software. The customers renew their software support along with their hardware maintenance contracts on either a quarterly or yearly basis.

 

This is considered normal operating expense for a business and its wise for them to do this. Technology changes so quickly. If they bought the software outright, it would be obsolete in a few years at most. Same goes for their hardware. Most businesses lease their equipment and turn it in for new within a 5 year span.

 

Recording studios can benefit by adopting such practices and I wouldn't doubt some of your multi million dollar studios do this with both software and hardware. They may have additional gear that's vintage of course, but so much of the other stuff is built from the same components. They likely put out request to have companies bid on their hardware and along with a maintenance contract and just bundle the whole thing together. Audio engineers are usually up on what's hot and what's not so they will whittle down the companies based on price and quality. They lease the gear for the studio for a period of time and then can either buy the lease out for a dollar at the end or use it as a trade in on all new gear.

 

I'd surely do it that way If I were running a business. This way you have all the latest computers and recording gear and you trade it in every 4~5 years before it becomes unreliable. In that same package I'd add the maintenance and software support for that period of time. Then you only have to worry about the monthly lease payments.

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As someone who works in a global software company, this sounds like a typical Sales Rep or VP response. They tried to find a way to make more money, period. Business is business. And I am about to upgrade to Platinum so I am a Cakewalk supporter.

 

 

Do the math: the membership program is most definitely NOT a way to make more money, at least in the short term. Cakewalk is charging the same price it cost in 2013 to go from X2 to X3, but now you not only go from X3 to Platinum, you also get a year's worth of new features and content. So you'll be getting what would have required a paid upgrade next year.

 

But long-term, if this creates happy customers who can't wait for the next month's shipment of cool stuff, and they tell their friends, who tell their friends...yes, Cakewalk will make more money long-term because the company will have a lot more customers. It's a gamble and it doesn't put the onus on customers to renew, it puts the onus on Cakewalk to come up with such great stuff that everyone wants to renew. The company is willing to trade off short-term gain for anticipated long-term gain.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing that the way to be more successful is to have really happy customers. I think that approach would be more successful than figuring out a way to make unhappy customers. :)

 

It's also important to understand the mentality of the people who work at Cakewalk. Most of them are musicians and to them, making more money isn't about buying a yacht - it's about hiring more developers and doing more cool stuff.

 

If you work for a global software company and you have DSP chops, Cakewalk is hiring...:)

 

 

 

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Couple of things come to mind - one is that it's not that uncommon for people to want to regress to an older version of software. Maybe they don't like the newest version - changes to the interface' date=' forced upgrade of the underlying OS, lack of time to mess with a never-ending stream of incremental learning curves, heavily used or beloved features that are dropped in a new version, etc. Will this be possible for people running just one copy on one machine?[/quote']

 

Cakewalk has a new installer that lets you roll back to previous versions at any time. Also, you can postpone an update if you're in the middle of a project, and grab it later...even much later, if you prefer As to the learning curve, one of the reasons for doing monthly updates is you don't get hit with everything at once. The learning curve becomes much shallower when features occur over time.

 

And if people are like me - I always run two copies of all my DAW and other music software on two computers - one out in my little studio where I track, one in the house where things are more comfortable for extended editing or programming sessions, etc. I want stability above all in the tracking setup so I can get things done without always messing with updates, versions, bugs, learning curves, etc etc. So the tracking computer is often an older version on an older OS than the one in the house.

 

Actually this system works very well for you. Once you become familiar with a feature in your "editing" environment, then you can update the "tracking" machine. Or not. Or roll back.

 

Cakewalk would do well to accommodate people running a version at least one step behind (or "year" behind I guess would be more accurate now.) Lots of studios, serious home recordists, and schools stay on an older version for at least a while. Even seems like a market of sorts, no?

 

If you want, you can pay for the update and not update anything until the last month of your current membership. Or update one computer, and not another.

 

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