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A Bar Owner's Perspective on Volume Levels


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I own a bar/restaurant. I'm in the gumbo trade. Is there a program or piece of hardware that squashes or amplifies sound to the same volume level? I am sick of jumping up and down to raise and lower the volume so customers can hear it. A solution is streamed radio. But customers like to choose their own playlists. I let 'em do that from wherever. Because of that, levels jump all over the decibel map.

 

Live music - on the rare occasions we have it - is not a problem.

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I own a bar/restaurant. I'm in the gumbo trade. Is there a program or piece of hardware that squashes or amplifies sound to the same volume level? I am sick of jumping up and down to raise and lower the volume so customers can hear it. A solution is streamed radio. But customers like to choose their own playlists. I let 'em do that from wherever. Because of that, levels jump all over the decibel map.

 

Live music - on the rare occasions we have it - is not a problem.

 

Stereo limiter before your power amp.

 

One of my old bands used to play the Texas Hall of Fame in Bryan, TX. It was a huge hall, very popular with a crow's nest for sound that was so far from the stage you had a huge delay between the headphones and the ambient sound. You also had a huge problem with the owner's idea of how loud was appropriate. He attempted to deal with that by having a stereo limiter in a rack with a locked plexiglass plate over the front panel of the limiter.

 

About the second or third time we played there we discovered that there was no locked plate across the back of the rack, and that the limiter had insert points in the back (for a de-essser, for instance). There were little U shaped jumper plugs to connect across them when not in use.

 

We simply pulled the jumpers out (defeating all limiting) and when the owner came up to complain about the volume we just shrugged while he checked to see if the locked cover plate was still in place.

 

Terry D.

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Here's a suggestion, as I run a bar and always look for dual purpose in purchasing something. You could look at the new behringer x-air rack mixers. For $300 you could get x-12 and use its internal effect processors. It has a limiter, eq. If you ever need it for entertainment purposes, you'd have it. It takes up little space and looks very portable. I plan on getting one for exactly the same purpose. Dj's really get out of control sometimes.

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Since this is streaming music, I'd like to know the details on how its streamed. There may be a software solution we're not looking at. My buddy does a streaming radio show in Chicago and he uses a program used in the industry which does an excellent job matching up the volume on the music play lists. In the old days they'd do it all with hardware, compressors and limiters. Today its usually done with software. There are benefits here too. Digital music may have a number of issues besides the db level. The program does and excellent job fixing frequency response and loudness and doesn't crush peaks like a limiter can (though there may be a limiter in that programs chain as well)

 

Digital music can be all over the map on how much is crushed in the studio when mastering but all streaming medias seem to have this issue. Even my cable TV is all over the place on its volume levels. I may be watching one show and have to turn the volume up to 100%. At other times (especially at night) I wind up having to crank the volume all the way down to 1 or 2% and its still pretty loud. I'm not sure weather network traffic is a cause.

 

I suspect its because the broadcast satellite relay stations are unmanned and the hardware/software does a poor job maintaining volume levels. I'm beginning to think some old timer with poor hearing comes to work on the midnight shift and cranks up the volume. Most modern movies have a huge dynamic range between the dialogue and action scenes designed to impact a live audience in a movie theater where you have a good sound system. Streaming music must be allot worse gives that the standards used by studios is all over the map on how loud the final product may be. So I'd suggest you'd look into what most radio stations use to even up their db levels today which is likely a combination of hardware and software depending on what kind of sound system you have.

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Hi. Thanks everybody.

 

Actually, I own an FMR RNLA. That would work?

 

The set-up is like this:

 

1, Desktop computer - accessible to customers - w/on-board sound card.

 

2. Music played on computer goes to amplifier. Amplified signal goes to speakers.

 

3. The music source can be streamed internet radio. It can be mp3's onboard via WMP. OR it can be Youtube.

 

4. The most noticeable volume problems occur when customers play Youtube. The levels are all over the map.

 

Someone here suggested a compressor after the amp. Actually, I own an FMR RNLA I could use for that purpose. I am skeptical it can solve the Youtube problem though. (I also own a JoeMeek C2 I could use for that.)

 

The power amp is behind the bar. The cook keeps a hawk eye on the volume levels. She's great. The computer is on the bar, accessible to customers. But they can't affect the volume beyond the on-board stuff. The amp is out of reach.

 

Would the RNLA raise the level of the Youtube videos when needed, as well as lower them without my intervention?

 

Right now, I'm running behind the bar all

the time. I have a little mixer I could put on

the bar. But then it would be in reach of

customers. I don't want that.

 

I want something - if it exists - that will keep volume levels within a range acceptable to people hearing each other speaking and still hearing the music.

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I'd try and set the default volume in youtube to match that of the other players on the computer first - or reduce the defaults of the other players to match youtube. Failing that, it's worth trying the RNLA in front of your amp. But if the volume discrepancy is too great between the loud players and the quiet ones, you may end up with some pretty crummy sounding audio in your speakers (possibly even audible distortion) as the limiter crunches down on the loud tunes, and brings up your soundcard's noise floor during the quiet ones. I'm not saying it won't work, and I'm happy to stand corrected if it does work - but I'd use a comp/limiter in that situation as a very last resort - not least because of the unbalanced output of the onboard soundcard.

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Someone here suggested a compressor after the amp. Actually, I own an FMR RNLA I could use for that purpose. I am skeptical it can solve the Youtube problem though. (I also own a JoeMeek C2 I could use for that.)

 

That someone was probably thinking that you had powered speakers (or not thinking at all). Put the RNLA or compressor in line between the computer and the power amplifier. Try each one and see which works the best and/or butchers the sound the least.

 

Compressors don't increase the level of quiet things, they reduce the level of loud things. Find the quietest songs, set the threshold so that it doesn't affect them, then, with the amplifier volume set where you usually run it, set the compressor output ("make-up" gain) control to give normal volume. Then adjust the compression ratio so that the louder songs are louder, but an acceptable amount louder.

 

With the compressor ahead of the amplifier, the relative volume of songs will stay the same, and the amplifier's volume control (set by a human) will adjust the overall music level in the room. That way you can turn it up when the place gets crowded, turn it down during slow or quiet times, and all of the music will still be able to be heard.

 

Heavily compressing a loud song that's already heavily compressed and being passed through a streaming codec will definitely make it sound different, most would say worse, than what an individual will hear listening in his home or car, but, geez, if they want high fidelity, they shouldn't be listening to YouTube in a bar. ;)

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That someone was probably thinking that you had powered speakers (or not thinking at all). Put the RNLA or compressor in line between the computer and the power amplifier. Try each one and see which works the best and/or butchers the sound the least. Compressors don't increase the level of quiet things' date=' they reduce the level of loud things. Find the quietest songs, set the threshold so that it doesn't affect them, then, with the amplifier volume set where you usually run it, set the compressor output ("make-up" gain) control to give normal volume. Then adjust the compression ratio so that the louder songs are louder, but an acceptable amount louder. With the compressor ahead of the amplifier, the relative volume of songs will stay the same, and the amplifier's volume control (set by a human) will adjust the overall music level in the room. That way you can turn it up when the place gets crowded, turn it down during slow or quiet times, and all of the music will still be able to be heard. Heavily compressing a loud song that's already heavily compressed and being passed through a streaming codec will definitely make it sound different, most would say worse, than what an individual will hear listening in his home or car, but, geez, if they want high fidelity, they shouldn't be listening to YouTube in a bar. ;)[/quote'] OP says his youtube volume is super-low. I'd look for an onboard solution before putting a limiting amplifier in the analogue part of the chain. The weak link here is that the various digital players are playing at different volumes. Without fixing that, analogue gain, and unbalanced soundcard noise, will have to be turned up somewhere in the chain. It's Weakest Link Theory 101. Like when you're getting a bump at 500hz because of a poorly positioned mic. Do you a) reposition the mic, or b) reach for an eq unit?
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I believe in Win 7 you can go into the win mixer and adjust the volumes for different feeds. You'll have to be running those different apps at the time you open the win mixer then adjust them so they all have about the same volume levels. IE, explorer doesn't show up in the win mixer until you access the internet.

 

There may also be some simple normalizers built into the sound settings you may have missed. http://www.howtogeek.com/115656/3-ways-to-normalize-sound-volume-on-your-pc/ Or this, http://mp3.about.com/od/windowsmediaplayer/qt/Windows-Media-Player-12-Volume-Leveling-Cure-Volume-Differences-Between-Songs.htm

 

Upgrading from a $2 built in card to a better card that has these enhancements might be the first thing I'd try. Cards like a Sound Blaster has additional software within the drives which includes Normalization that fixes the issues you're having with different feeds.

 

I was looking at something like this which would take any feed and enhance it. http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/network-players/stream-magic-6

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OP says his youtube volume is super-low. I'd look for an onboard solution before putting a limiting amplifier in the analogue part of the chain. The weak link here is that the various digital players are playing at different volumes.

 

Every YouTube video I've seen has had a volume slider on it, but that's not something that sticks with the computer, or even the web site. So you really don't know what the level coming out of the computer is going to be. He could instruct the users to push the volume slider up all the way when they play a YouTube file.

 

Is there a universal player that will play YouTube as well as all the common audio formats, or is YouTube one of those formats that only plays on their embedded player?

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Every YouTube video I've seen has had a volume slider on it, but that's not something that sticks with the computer, or even the web site. So you really don't know what the level coming out of the computer is going to be. He could instruct the users to push the volume slider up all the way when they play a YouTube file.

 

Is there a universal player that will play YouTube as well as all the common audio formats, or is YouTube one of those formats that only plays on their embedded player?

 

 

Thanks everybody.

 

The problem has been, somebody - usually me - has to get up and manipulate that slider. I was looking for a software or a device that kept levels within a range that wouldn't require manual intervention. As it turns out - people are trying to sublet the place from us. So it will probably be their problem pretty soon. And they can deal with it.

 

I'm going on vacation.

 

But to recap:

 

1. The music comes from the computer and goes to the power amp/speakers behind bar.

2. It can be streamed internet radio, on-board MP3's, or Youtube.

3. Customers can play music if they want. Normally that involves selecting Youtube channels.

4. The computer is on the bar accessible to customers. Power amp is not.

5. Youtube volume levels are all over the place -- mostly on the low side sometimes on the high.

6. I was constantly adjusting levels by walking around behind the bar and raising or lowering volume on amp.

7. I was looking for a device or software to allow me to avoid doing that.

 

 

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Every YouTube video I've seen has had a volume slider on it' date=' but that's not something that sticks with the computer, or even the web site. So you really don't know what the level coming out of the computer is going to be. He could instruct the users to push the volume slider up all the way when they play a YouTube file. Is there a universal player that will play YouTube as well as all the common audio formats, or is YouTube one of those formats that only plays on their embedded player?[/quote'] My experience with youtube is that once you're logged in, the volume slider is set to your personal preference, no matter what you're watching on it. YMMV
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Afaik, youtube doesn't apply any normalisation. In any event, IMO, applying a hardware comp/limiter is pointless without first getting the default output gains of the individual digital players fairly well matched. Perhaps you could stick to a single player, like Spotify, which is very inexpensive, has a massive catalogue, and has onboard loudness matching?

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My experience with youtube is that once you're logged in' date=' the volume slider is set to your personal preference, no matter what you're watching on it. YMMV[/quote']

 

Can't say as I've noticed that, but then I don't think I've ever "logged in" to YouToob, just clicked on a link in someone's post or a Google search. I almost always have to adjust the volume.

 

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Knobs and Craig: why a limiter rather than a compressor? Seems to me a limiter is good for handling occasional peaks, but not ideal for auto-leveling.

 

Of course, a limiter IS a compressor, just one set up a certain way. But, well, see above. I wouldn't want something that only kicks in and limits at the high end.

 

Mike Rivers covered it well. Gubu and WRGKMC make great points too.

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