Members Bruce Swedien Posted November 28, 2006 Members Share Posted November 28, 2006 Forumites.... Stereophonic Microphone Technique What is the real problem with using a single monophonic track in a so-called stereo mix? Stereo recording, as it exists today, can do a pretty good job of conveying spectral incoherence, or Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Will Chen Posted November 28, 2006 Members Share Posted November 28, 2006 Good discussion point and I agree with pretty much everything you said. However we must also take into account the reality of the listener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted November 28, 2006 Members Share Posted November 28, 2006 I am not an engineer, but I have to be in my own project studio. I have been experimenting with the Stereo Micing technique that you so kindly showed me in a previous post. My biggest challenge is getting that stereo solo sound into the mix of a bigger ensemble that is not miced in stereo (without the stereo tracks getting lost or muddy). I am keeping at it though I clearly have a lot to learn. I have talked to several engineers I work with about this and what I get from them is that it is easier to place and mix a bunch of mono tracks than the stereo ones. So many engineers never learn how to properly work with stereo. The caveat is that the mono tracks may be easier to mix but they don't sound as good or rich (or three dimensional) as the stereo tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted November 28, 2006 Moderators Share Posted November 28, 2006 Bruce, I love Blumlein. It has such a realistic quality. Tracking percussion in a live room with a pair changed my views forever. My question: How do you feel about ORTF? In theory, it would seem that 2 cardioids would more closely resemble 2 ears. When AB-ing my options however, I like Blumlien. Any thoughts regarding ORTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted November 29, 2006 Members Share Posted November 29, 2006 My own feeling on stereo micing is that it works very very well in a good sounding room. I've experimented (with some success) in putting up a stereo pair, then using the same pair to dub various harmonies, moving myself to the next singer position for each part. It did sound much more natural than panned close-miced parts. Those pretty much mixed themselves. Limiting your options in any way (like ALWAYS using close-micing + panning, or OTOH, NEVER using close-micing + panning) reduces your artistic possibilities, and can close your mind to techniques that are 'just the ticket' in new unusual recording situations. Of course, Bruce has been doing this long enough that maybe no unusual or new situations are left for him... He's done pretty much everything that I'd like to have... But my thinking is (to draw an analogy) that there are different brushes you use for different parts of each painting, and the important thing is to stop and consider, once in a while, which brush will do your painting the most justice. In that vein, I applaud Bruce for this thread, for trying to break people out of their 'close-mic, maximum isolation, dead room' habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted November 29, 2006 Members Share Posted November 29, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Knight Bruce,I love Blumlein. It has such a realistic quality. Tracking percussion in a live room with a pair changed my views forever.My question:How do you feel about ORTF? In theory, it would seem that 2 cardioids would more closely resemble 2 ears. When AB-ing my options however, I like Blumlien. Any thoughts regarding ORTF? Lee, this is a bit of speculation, but I think the reason cardioid mics in ORTF do not produce as much 3 dimensional quality as the bi-directional (figure-8) mics used for Blumlein is that our ears are not unidirectional and they pick up a lot of information from the side, back, up and down. Logic would suggest they pickup more like PZM's with the plates spaced, but nearest each other because they are hemispherical in pickup. The Blumlein pair picks up early and late reflections with more level than cardioid mics would because the "right" mic picks up reflections from the left back and the "left" mic picks up reflections from the right back, providing a rich variation of the spatial cues our ears create through our pinnae and brain. Even so, Blumlein is good for stereo spread and some three dimensionality, but it ain't binaural. Once you experience the ability of binaural recording through headphones common stereo pales by comparison. Of course you can't expect everyone to listen through closed headphones, so it isn't practical. I suppose you could try setting up a four mic ORTF in which two cardioid pairs were used, one facing 180 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iCombs Posted November 29, 2006 Members Share Posted November 29, 2006 I know it's not technically the ORTF spec, but I've had good luck with what basically amounts to an ORTF pair of Omnis...I really want to make myself a Jecklin disc and see what that does to seperation, but I found that the onmi ORTF I get a pretty good sense of localization (better than blumlein, IMHO, but it also depends on the source and the goal of the mics) and room reflection...it's as close to actually being in the room as I have experienced with 2 microphones. ...I wouldn't necessarily use them as something for capturing ambience only as I would with a Blumlein pair (i.e., drum room mics), but for capturing something where I'm trying to only use a pair of mics, I'd probably reach for the omni ORTF before blumlein just because the stereo field it captures feels wider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joel Oporto Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 I've always wondered why for instruments we have so many stereo micing techniques, but I've never heard anybody stereo micing lead vocals. Is it because of the coherence factor? I have tried a few times before, actually using 3 mics for a lead vocal, but only because the inexperienced singer had a tendency to move her head around quite a bit while singing, but I've never really heard of stereo micing lead vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by joel Oporto .....but I've never really heard of stereo micing lead vocals. Tina Turner's "Whats Love got to do with it". Her vocals were recorded in stereo for that entire album Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 What I think... using a near-coincident pair straight to half-track open reel is still my favorite way to mic a music hall or church choir. Nothing else comes as close to bringing the listener into the room. It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Iamtheblues Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Bruce Swedien Forumites.... Stereophonic Microphone Technique What is the real problem with using a single monophonic track in a so-called stereo mix? Blah, blah, blah....... I get great results with a pair of 57's. I don't waste time thinking too deeply about this stuff, it gives me more time to create music. Maybe you should worry more about mastering your instrument/honing songwriting skills than stressing over trivial stuff like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 1, 2006 Moderators Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Iamtheblues Maybe you should worry more about mastering your instrument/honing songwriting skills than stressing over trivial stuff like this. Maybe you should expand your horizons a little bluesman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Iamtheblues Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Knight Maybe you should expand your horizons a little bluesman. Oh, I play lots o' styles to help pay the bills, just prefer the blues. To quote FZ "Shut up and play yer guitar!" Too much worrying about mic placement and this n that. Just play! I don't know who the original poster is, but he obviously has too much time on his hands to be concerned about this stuff..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Iamtheblues I don't know who the original poster is, but he obviously has too much time on his hands to be concerned about this stuff..... :D :D :D :D :D Awesome. This needs to be immortalized somewhere. You don't know the original poster, huh? Hmmm, that might explain some stuff. Here, perhaps this might help. - Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Jeff da Weasel :D Awesome. This needs to be immortalized somewhere. You don't know the original poster, huh? Hmmm, that might explain some stuff. Here, perhaps this might help. - Jeff Yup, that pretty well sums it up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 1, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by joel Oporto I've always wondered why for instruments we have so many stereo micing techniques, but I've never heard anybody stereo micing lead vocals. Is it because of the coherence factor? I have tried a few times before, actually using 3 mics for a lead vocal, but only because the inexperienced singer had a tendency to move her head around quite a bit while singing, but I've never really heard of stereo micing lead vocals. Joel..... Excellent!!! I can tell you are a good thinker and a top-drawer gasser! The reason that multiple miking on a lead vocal or intrumental lead doesn't work is exactly what you describe in your query. It is an effect that is called "Wandering". "Wandering" is very disconcertiing to the ear. A single channel lead vocal works so well because it is a point-source. And if the background is a well-recorded and produced track, that means that the contrast between a stereo music track and a point-source lead track charms the ear.... Good to think about.... Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Jeff da Weasel Awesome. This needs to be immortalized somewhere. :D :D That's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 1, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 It's difficult not to think a bit about binaural sound when you are talking about Stereo Recording.... Here is something interesting,(hopefully) about my experiences in Binaural Sound! THE 'DUDE' On Quincy's album "The Dude" I recorded all the persusson in Binaural. I have a Binaural Recording Head... It was when the cassette "Walkman" had just come out. I saw all these young folks walking about with a walkman, and stereo headphones affixed to their ears! I thought to myself - "A CAPTIVE BINAURAL AUDIENCE!" So again, I thought to myself, "Why don't I record all the persusson on this fantastic Quincy Jones project in Binaural??? I talked to 'Q' about that thought, and he said "Why Not???". We'll put some notes in the liner copy about it!!! So I did!!!! (Or, we did!) There were some Audio Articles that the press did, I remember doing a little piece in Billboard, and guess what.... Nobody even noticed! The album sold a million copies and not one person noticed or cared about my boldhearted idea in Binaural!!! Big deal!!! About that same period of time, I also did a series of lectures and recordings at the University Of Wisconsin in Madison, Wisconsin. Somewhere in my stuff here I have all my notes from my University Of Wisconsin series on Binaural. I just moved and it would be very difficult to find that stuff, I'm afraid... It is a fascinating topic, though..... I could go on and on..... Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 1, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Iamtheblues Oh, I play lots o' styles to help pay the bills, just prefer the blues. To quote FZ "Shut up and play yer guitar!" Too much worrying about mic placement and this n that. Just play! I don't know who the original poster is, but he obviously has too much time on his hands to be concerned about this stuff..... I absolutely LOVE you folks. You are so cute!!!!! Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 My favorite part, Bruce, is that this guy calls himself a blues man, yet questions the thought process of a guy who's recorded Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, and BB King! That's beautiful, man. My giggle of the day on a cold December morning. - Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 1, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Jeff da Weasel My favorite part, Bruce, is that this guy calls himself a blues man, yet questions the thought process of a guy who's recorded Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, and BB King! That's beautiful, man. My giggle of the day on a cold December morning. - Jeff Jeff... You are a way cool dude! And I mean that as a sincere compliment.... Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iCombs Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Perhaps Iamtheblues doesn't quite understand that Bruce's "instrument" IS the recording studio. Every mic choice a "chord," every placement technique a "lick," and every finished track a "song." Wait...that last one doesn't need to be in quotes. ..cuz when he's done it is a song. Generally one in the "helluva" category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Iamtheblues Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by Jeff da Weasel My favorite part, Bruce, is that this guy calls himself a blues man, yet questions the thought process of a guy who's recorded Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, and BB King! - Jeff Being a studio gofer hardly qualifies one as "recording" any of the artists you mention. With a resume like he has, why is he hanging out here? Shouldn't he be busy in the studio "recording" somebody? Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 1, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by iCombs Perhaps Iamtheblues doesn't quite understand that Bruce's "instrument" IS the recording studio. Every mic choice a "chord," every placement technique a "lick," and every finished track a "song." Wait...that last one doesn't need to be in quotes. ..cuz when he's done it is a song. Generally one in the "helluva" category. ICombs..... Aren't you proud to be from Minnesota??? I am! Look out here comes the SNOW!!! Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Iamtheblues Posted December 1, 2006 Members Share Posted December 1, 2006 Originally posted by iCombs Perhaps Iamtheblues doesn't quite understand that Bruce's "instrument" IS the recording studio. Every mic choice a "chord," every placement technique a "lick," and every finished track a "song." Wait...that last one doesn't need to be in quotes. ..cuz when he's done it is a song. Generally one in the "helluva" category. Yeah, and turntables are "instruments" too...... This ain't Tom Dowd or Martin Birch we're talking about here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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