Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Forumites.... Which is the more important value when Recording Music? - Style or Fashion??? STYLE... Style comes from the inside... Style is Spiritual... Style comes from within oneself... Style is an individual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheLuxLife Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Style first. Fashion second. Shouldn't have one without the other. -J.P. LUX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 I think that's one of those that applies accross the board. It's a pretty common critique in all forms of creative endeavor or personal expression. Come to think of it, it's even been the subject of 'very special episodes' of a variety of family television programs that feature "coming of age" elements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Bruce Swedien Forumites.... What do you regard as your most important value when it comes to recording your music??? Bruce Swedien I think beyond style and fashion, what lies within is content. The actual melody and harmony (and to a degree rhythm). The inner content can be stylized in whatever manner is desired - loud or soft, broadly or intimately, agressive or delicate sounds. The style choices may or may not be fashionable at any given time, but then again fashion tends to go in cycles. So I say content is the first and foremost value for me. But given the choices, style comes before fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted December 22, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Depends on who's paying the bills and what he or she likes. There are certain markets in which you can't sell with style, you have to sell with fashion (though there's no reason why you can't have both). Other markets tend to reject "fashion" out of hand and look for "style." Sadly, I doubt that you can make the big bucks without at least a recognizable amount of "fashion," and making money is important to some people in this business, and a goal for most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Follow your heart and your gut, not the fickle winds of constantly changing fashion. I don't know if I have a distinctive "style" of my own; IOW, if people can determine one of my productions / recordings just based off of sonic things that are unique to me that they hear in them, but I do strive for something more than just a "me too" type of approach. Billster, good point about the importance of content. IMO, content is crucial, and IMO what we (as producers and engineers) do should enhance and support that content, displaying it in the best possible way, like a well framed painting that is hung and lighted just so for maximum impact. But the content has to be there in the material (song) and performances if we hope to move people with our work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 For the new year, I've now decided that I want to be as shallow as possible. I'll go with fashion. ~~~~ Billster, I realize that I'm largely engaging in semantics, but don't you feel that, given the definitions laid out for us here, that style infuses content? The two of them are inseparable bedmates, with one informing the other, no? As defined, style would be the natural flow from all of one's life experiences as filtered through you. And that's the only way I know how to create music....er, which is why I want, for the New Year, to suddenly be all about fashion. It's gonna be greeeeeeat - just greeeeaaaat!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PBBPaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Follow your heart and your gut, not the fickle winds of constantly changing fashion. I don't know if I have a distinctive "style" of my own; IOW, if people can determine one of my productions / recordings just based off of sonic things that are unique to me that they hear in them, but I do strive for something more than just a "me too" type of approach. Billster, good point about the importance of content. IMO, content is crucial, and IMO what we (as producers and engineers) do should enhance and support that content, displaying it in the best possible way, like a well framed painting that is hung and lighted just so for maximum impact. But the content has to be there in the material (song) and performances if we hope to move people with our work. I was going to write a nice reply but Phil said everything I would have said so... Thanks Phil and ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 If I was a manager of a boy-band, it would lean toward fashion, since it's not really selling music so much as selling crushes to teenage girls... Beyond recouping (or reaping profit from) an investment, I don't have much use for fashion. Style is another matter -- it is about putting your own signature onto your art. It is the thing that makes your work different from the other 3000 or so songs that are released every day, what makes it unique and hopefully special. There are certainly other elements - melody, arrangement, performance aspects, but these are just the canvas and paints that are used as media to create the work. Anybody can paint; anybody can make music. I've seen chimpanzees paint, and elephants jam. But there is only one Van Gogh, only one Salvador Dali - - what set them apart was their vision, their willingness to sacrifice for the sake of creating, and their willingness to leave the herd behind, regardless of what wolves might be out there waiting. The same can be said of artists willing to put style in recorded musical works. Concisely, fashion can sell, but style can endure and become a classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Billster, I realize that I'm largely engaging in semantics, but don't you feel that, given the definitions laid out for us here, that style infuses content? The two of them are inseparable bedmates, with one informing the other, no?As defined, style would be the natural flow from all of one's life experiences as filtered through you. Too engage in semantics, I can and do separate content from style. I love songs that are re-made in a different style, like for instance Dolly Parton's bluegrass take on the Collective Soul song Shine. In my own music I write the melody and chords, and then look into the different stylistic bags I can use to present it. Is the song meant to be jazzy or a harder edge?, is it going to call for a lyric?, is it part of something bigger, like a movement in a symphony? I admit that often the composing process leads to certain style choices, but I find it worthwhile to explore different rhythms and timbres to stylize the material and hear what works and what doesn't. It's very easy for me to explore stylization of other people's songs, it can be a tougher row to hoe to apply the methods to my own creations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted December 22, 2006 Why is James Bond largely unchanged since his beginning? He's got style. Completely unmoved by fashion yet always in fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Billster Too engage in semantics, I can and do separate content from style. I love songs that are re-made in a different style, like for instance Dolly Parton's bluegrass take on the Collective Soul song Shine. In my own music I write the melody and chords, and then look into the different stylistic bags I can use to present it. Is the song meant to be jazzy or a harder edge?, is it going to call for a lyric?, is it part of something bigger, like a movement in a symphony? Okay, I see where you are coming from. This is where I am coming from - and since this is semantics and we are largely thinking about things in a similar manner, I am not going to argue this too stridently!!! Based on Bruce's definitions of style coming from the inside and being spiritual, my interpretation is that what comes from you - inside - and your spirituality - that being what Bruce calls style - creates the melody and the chords. Again, I'm basing this on the definitions laid down in the first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Gotcha Ken If only my personal style were more fashionable, I might have more commercial potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Iamtheblues Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Bruce Swedien Speaking for myself, I would go with Style as MY most important value... What do you regard as your most important value when it comes to recording your music??? Bruce Swedien Well considering that this is a MUSIC forum populated by REAL MUSICIANS, what do you THINK the consensus will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Knight Why is James Bond largely unchanged since his beginning? hmm, I'd say he's been altered pretty generously from the Flemming model over the years and how he's been played by various actors seems kind of a sign of the times (I think Dalton got railroaded a bit...The stories he played in were weak, which gave him a bad context -- but the manner in WHICH he played the character was, I think, somewhat more true to the original Fleming character...and people just weren't ready for that after Moore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 22, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Okay, I see where you are coming from. This is where I am coming from - and since this is semantics and we are largely thinking about things in a similar manner, I am not going to argue this too stridently!!! Based on Bruce's definitions of style coming from the inside and being spiritual, my interpretation is that what comes from you - inside - and your spirituality - that being what Bruce calls style - creates the melody and the chords. Again, I'm basing this on the definitions laid down in the first post. Ken.... I am far more interested in what you think once I have pushed the boat away from the dock. The subjects Style and Fashion are only the beginning. What would you say if i had begun this with: Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. Hmmmm.... Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 What would you say if i had begun this with: Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. dunno...try it! (ie what would be the question after that statement? seriously, maybe a rephrase could hlp add to the convo) I am far more interested in what you think once I have pushed the boat away from the dock. The subjects Style and Fashion are only the beginning. I think the problem was we got a bit caught up in the mooring lines...there might be some differences in how people interpret some of the terms and what kind of implications they might have..and that kind of came out in that sub-discussion It really can be a problem in boating (and conversation) -- everyone is so excited to get underway..did someone remember to undo the stern spring line? (that wouldn't have been me, of course ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Bruce Swedien Ken....I am far more interested in what you think once I have pushed the boat away from the dock. The subjects Style and Fashion are only the beginning. What would you say if i had begun this with: Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. And unlocking your "potential" is what *could* occur if you gave 100% to your ability, motivation, and attitude ...pushing the boat further away from the dock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli ...pushing the boat further away from the dock... I forgot the cooler!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by MorePaul hmm, I'd say he's been altered pretty generously from the Flemming model over the years and how he's been played by various actors seems kind of a sign of the times (I think Dalton got railroaded a bit...The stories he played in were weak, which gave him a bad context -- but the manner in WHICH he played the character was, I think, somewhat more true to the original Fleming character...and people just weren't ready for that after Moore) Hmmm... I was thinking Dalton didn't count. But think of it, Bond never went to lamb chops, or nehru jackets. Maybe while in disguise, but as himself, he's been pretty consistent. But scrap the Bond analogy if that rubs... It is important to not be conspicuously out of fashion, but style comes first for sure. Since Bruce posed the question, think of the horns on MJ's Rock With You. I always thought they were so stylish, but really not in fashion. They worked because they didn't wait for that sound to come back in fashion. They weren't very brash, but warm and perculating. Style not fashion. John Mayer's guitar work isn't in fashion, but he sure plays with style. He's sells a lot of albums and he's not in fashion. Cool... And one might get the impression Mayer will be around longer than My Chemical Romance. Though I love the sound of the latter, I probably won't in 2 years. I think I'll still be listening to Mayer's stuff years from now, new and old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by Lee Knight But think of it, Bond never went to lamb chops, or nehru jackets. Maybe while in disguise, but as himself, he's been pretty consistent. The Moore hair second only to "the Donald", a white dinner jacket and a union jack parachute... Not exaclty the grey flannel suit and let's face it -- a Lotus submarine is a far cry from a Studillac But scrap the Bond analogy if that rubs... Hey, I gotta give you grief! b/c it amuses me and you are a good sport [much love and I'll stop pulling your chain now] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Cousin Brucie-An artists "Style" is their own nature, spirituality, etc... but that does not seem to be a top seller. Whereas "Fashion" rules the industry and sells albums. Considering Fashion sells more often than "Style", its more important to have fashion if one wants to sell and make a living in music. Obviously I would rather listen to an artist that has their own style. Peace,Ernest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 If we're discussing "The Donald", it should be said that bad taste never goes out of style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MorePaul Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 OOOh, ya got me!!!..niiiiice (Bruce, if you fear the banter is wrecking the thread, let me know and I'll kill the posts...thought I think the "mooring one" has something to say) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 When I was still taking some recording classes at a couple local JCs, my ex-GF was just finishing up a course in fashion design and I ended up hanging out with her and some of her designer friends and also with a bunch of models (part of the draw at first) and hearing them talk and reading some fasion industry stuff and thinking about the music biz -- I think I was taking a music biz workshop class at the time -- and it started becoming really clear just how much the commercial music business IS the fashion business... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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