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Beyond Mixing? - Bruce and the mastering process?


steveg

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Bruce,

 

Thanks again for the thoughts on mixing. Can you share some tidbits on mastering? Specifically how it changes/affects your product and whether or not you have to "adjust" for it in how you approach your tracking and mixing.

 

Granted for vinyl and other formats there were huge physical considerations, so we probably have to approach this both with that in mind and ask for your thoughs on the purely digital delivery mechanism.

 

 

thanks

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Originally posted by steveg

Bruce,


Thanks again for the thoughts on mixing. Can you share some tidbits on mastering? Specifically how it changes/affects your product and whether or not you have to "adjust" for it in how you approach your tracking and mixing.


Granted for vinyl and other formats there were huge physical considerations, so we probably have to approach this both with that in mind and ask for your thoughs on the purely digital delivery mechanism.



thanks

 

steveg....

 

Great question!

 

I NEVER make any adjustments in my mixes to accomodate the mastering process. My mastering wallah is my old pal Bernie Grundman. He is the very best that the industry has to offer.

 

I always thought that it was good to have an additional excellent set of ears on my mixes... Bernie Grundman has the best ears in the business...

 

I don't consider the mastering phase of my projects as a point in the project to 'save' it, or to 'fix' anything. If I have trouble with something in the mastering room, I am back in the studio re-mixing to satisfy my problem.

 

Beyond Mixing? Very depressing thought! The music doesn't NEED ME anymore. I have never liked that point of the process.

 

Bruce Swedien

:cool::thu::cool:

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Senor Swedien, do you mix with heavy compression on the Master Buss (only to take it off before actually finishing the mix) so you can approximate what the mix will come out like during the mastering process?

 

Curiously, I think this is the first question I have ever asked you in this entire time we have been interacting!!!

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Originally posted by UstadKhanAli

Senor Swedien, do you mix with heavy compression on the Master Buss (only to take it off before actually finishing the mix) so you can approximate what the mix will come out like during the mastering process?


Curiously, I think this is the first question I have ever asked you in this entire time we have been interacting!!!

 

Ken.....

 

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN????

 

Bruce

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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Originally posted by Bruce Swedien

I NEVER make any adjustments in my mixes to accomodate the mastering process. My mastering wallah is my old pal Bernie Grundman. He is the very best that the industry has to offer.


I don't consider the mastering phase of my projects as a point in the project to 'save' it, or to 'fix' anything. If I have trouble with something in the mastering room, I am back in the studio re-mixing to satisfy my problem.

Back in the good old days (in which I'm still stuck) "Mastering" was the stage between recording/mixing and pressing. If there were any changes made in the process they were those necessary to keep the cutter from jumping out of the groove.

 

We'd sometimes give instructions to the mastering engineer to adjust levels between songs to avoid another analog pass, and occasionally to pull a stereo image in toward the center. But they didn't have to do edits, re-arrange songs (unless there was a last minute change) or do fades, because that was all part of the recording, mixing, and assembly process at the studio. And we mixed the music to sound like we wanted it to sound. Occasionally overall reverb was added in mastering because that's where the good reverb unit or chamber was. But the mastering engineer wasn't part of the creative process, he was part of the technical process, and a good mastering engineer could cut without buggering up the audio too much.

 

The kinds of things that a mastering engineer did because they needed to be done were pulling the bass toward the center and some judicious limiting. The idea of compressing as much as possible to make the record as loud as possible was a later development. This was left in the hands of the mastering engineer because he was in the best position to make the compromise between level and length of the side.

 

The concept of the mastering engineer improving the mix was mostly a result of more product coming in that wasn't recorded and mixed by skilled engineers or without accurate monitoring. The quality of the product delivered for mastering just wasn't as good as it should be, so it became common to fix things up best as they could be at the last step, now before making the digital master for CD replication rather than cutting an acetate disk.

 

We CAN go back to making great sounding mixes that don't need fixing-up during mastering, but it requirees more skill and experience than the majority of recordists have today, and also more accurate monitoring than most can afford.

 

I would expect that for an engineer with Bruce's experience, there's very little difference between what comes off his console and what comes off the final delivered product. Others may need more help.

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Originally posted by MikeRivers

Back in the good old days (in which I'm still stuck) "Mastering" was the stage between recording/mixing and pressing. If there were any changes made in the process they were those necessary to keep the cutter from jumping out of the groove.


We'd sometimes give instructions to the mastering engineer to adjust levels between songs to avoid another analog pass, and occasionally to pull a stereo image in toward the center. But they didn't have to do edits, re-arrange songs (unless there was a last minute change) or do fades, because that was all part of the recording, mixing, and assembly process at the studio. And we mixed the music to sound like we wanted it to sound. Occasionally overall reverb was added in mastering because that's where the good reverb unit or chamber was. But the mastering engineer wasn't part of the creative process, he was part of the technical process, and a good mastering engineer could cut without buggering up the audio too much.


The kinds of things that a mastering engineer did because they needed to be done were pulling the bass toward the center and some judicious limiting. The idea of compressing as much as possible to make the record as loud as possible was a later development. This was left in the hands of the mastering engineer because he was in the best position to make the compromise between level and length of the side.


The concept of the mastering engineer improving the mix was mostly a result of more product coming in that wasn't recorded and mixed by skilled engineers or without accurate monitoring. The quality of the product delivered for mastering just wasn't as good as it should be, so it became common to fix things up best as they could be at the last step, now before making the digital master for CD replication rather than cutting an acetate disk.


We CAN go back to making great sounding mixes that don't need fixing-up during mastering, but it requirees more skill and experience than the majority of recordists have today, and also more accurate monitoring than most can afford.


I would expect that for an engineer with Bruce's experience, there's very little difference between what comes off his console and what comes off the final delivered product. Others may need more help.

 

Mike.....

 

Excellent!

 

Bruce

:cool::thu::cool:

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Geez, I think if I had to master a Bruce Swedien mix in a professional mastering room, I too would be considered "da bomb". I`m not trying to take anything away from a Grundman but I have seriously wondered how much a mastering engineer truly does earn their keep.

 

Afterall if there is something they are having trouble with, they look over at the producer or engineer and say something like, "You need to re-mix this." (I`ve been there so I know.) I wish my job was like that!

 

Yes, a mastering engineer can ruin a record but how honestly hard is it to get a Bruce Swedien, a Tom Lord Alge, Clearmountain, etc mix to sound even better?

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Be Lucky,

EB

 

btw- I brought this topic up at a mastering thread on Gearslutz and pretty much pissed off all the MEs. Why do you think?:confused:

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Originally posted by Bruce Swedien

Ken.....


WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN????


Bruce

:mad:
:mad:
:mad:
:mad:
:mad:
:mad:

 

:D I'm just absorbing all the stuff that you and the other engineers talk about on the forum!!!

 

I'm guessing you don't strap any aggressive sort of compressor across your Master Buss to try and emulate what you think the mastering engineer will do, and probably part of that (besides the fact that you're messing up your mix) is that you have a good rapport with Bernie Grundman, who does your mastering.

 

~~~~~~~

 

So far, I think my favorite question that someone has asked you was the question about your philosophical approach towards mixing.

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Originally posted by UstadKhanAli

:D
I'm just absorbing all the stuff that you and the other engineers talk about on the forum!!!


I'm guessing you
don't
strap any aggressive sort of compressor across your Master Buss to try and emulate what you think the mastering engineer will do, and probably part of that (besides the fact that you're messing up your mix) is that you have a good rapport with Bernie Grundman, who does your mastering.


~~~~~~~


So far, I think my favorite question that someone has asked you was the question about your philosophical approach towards mixing.

 

Ken.....

 

You must know my philosophy by now....

 

Compressor's are for kids!!!!! I WOULD NEVER, EVER, NEVER, EVER strap a compressor across the master mix buss!!! (Or more than likely anywhere else either!!!)

 

Bruce

:cool::thu::cool:

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Originally posted by Bruce Swedien

Ken.....


You must know my philosophy by now....


Compressor's are for kids!!!!! I WOULD NEVER, EVER, NEVER, EVER strap a compressor across the master mix buss!!! (Or more than likely anywhere else either!!!)


Bruce

:cool::thu::cool:

 

No, I wouldn't think so. I don't do this either.

 

I don't either, but I had a bad experience with a client's CD. The mixes sounded really great. But when the audio was mastered for CD, it was mastered quite aggressively, with the waveforms turned into 2x4s. And this altered the character and balances of the mixes quite a bit. So as a result of that, I check my mixes with aggressive compression on the Master Buss, obviously taking off before actually mixing.

 

I use no compressors when tracking, and use light compression on some tracks while mixing, although with something like vocals, I tend to prefer to "ride the fader" instead of using compression. However, I do use some light compression while mixing. I guess this makes me a kid!! :D

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I'm with Ken, I've never asked Bruce a question because before I can do, others have already asked what I wanted to ask and so I just sit back and read, learn and admire.

 

But quoting Bruce "compression are for kids," why is compression so heavily relied on today? I want to issue an arrest warrant for the guy who started compressing the song so that they sound like electric saw in action.

 

Truely I always wanted to asked why are people using compression for levels in digital recording when you have fader automation? I personally don't do commercial recordings but if I did I would use compression for "flavoring" and leave the dynamics alone. Will I be heading in the right direction?

 

I once read an interview with an engineer that recorded Barbara Streisand and he was asked, how do you record artist like Barbara Streisand? she is so dynamic. Voice levels varies.

 

And he said he studies her songs by heart and just ride the levels, never uses compression, "it will ruin the beauty of her voice."

 

So why is compression so craved today?

 

Sorry to changed the main subject.

 

Audioicon

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I use compression to tighten up things a bit (as mentioned above, I go light on the compression) typically. If I can make it sound better, such as I can when I use it on bass, I'll go ahead and use it. I'll also use compression to utterly crush a room mic for drums to get a Bonham drum sound.

 

With vocals, I tend to prefer "riding the fader" (automation). When I recorded with a mixing board before, I would literally ride the fader while recording the vocals, something I miss now that I don't have a mixer.

 

If it's my own music, I can be much more specific about what I want the mastering engineer to do.

 

If I'm recording someone else and they are taking it to a mastering engineer that I don't know, then unfortunately, I have no control over the mastering process, and will take additional precautions, such as listening with aggressive compression on so I have some clue as to what it will likely sound like when some hack gets done with my gorgeously recorded audio and compensate accordingly if necessary.

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Originally posted by steveg

Bruce,


Can you expand on the fact that you don't use compressors?


This implies that you only manually ride the fader during tracking , am I understanding this correctly?


thanks

 

Ah, you beat me to it!!! That was going to be my second question to Senor Swedien!!! :D

 

I too am curious about this, especially since I am so fond of automating the vocal levels and gain-riding (riding the faders while recording).

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Originally posted by audioicon



I once read an interview with an engineer that recorded Barbara Streisand and he was asked, how do you record artist like Barbara Streisand? she is so dynamic. Voice levels varies.


And he said he studies her songs by heart and just ride the levels, never uses compression, "it will ruin the beauty of her voice."


 

 

 

My 'guess' would also include that Streisand likely knows how to control her own vocal dynamics within a relatively given range, in combination with the use of good mic technique. A musician who records, IMHO, should be able to do the same thing regarding good control of his/her attack and dynamics to honestly deserve the title.

 

 

Rick

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Originally posted by Ernest Buckley

Afterall if there is something they are having trouble with, they look over at the producer or engineer and say something like, "You need to re-mix this." (I`ve been there so I know.) I wish my job was like that!

Sometimes you can get away with that, but with today's "mastering" clients, you can't They depend on you to fix it after the mix. If there's a problem with the mix, it's always better to change the mix before mastering, but you have to figure that your client has sent you the best mix he could make. Send it back to him and tell him to change it (even with some instructions) and he still might not get it right - because either he doesn't know what's right or he can't hear what he's doing because his monitoring isn't sufficiently accurate.

 

One of our friendly local mastering engineers used to have a couple of TASCAM DA88s and a Yamaha 02R in his studio. A friend of mine, who had the same multitrack setup, would bring his projects over for mastering both as a mix and as the DA88 tapes and 02R mix data disk. If Billy heard something that would be better to fix by changing the mix (usually it was a matter of changing the level of one element by a dB or so in a couple of places) he easily set up to adjust the mix, and could hear what it sounded llike on his own monitors.

 

I don't see any reason why people couldn't do that today with DAW files, but I don't think they do. In the case of this guy (Bill Wolf) he was a really good mixing engineer and took up mastering as his "retirement gig." Today, too many people who call themselves mastering engineers might not be able to put up a mix and tweak it so that it mastered better. I don't even know if Bernie Grundman (who, as far back as I can remember, has always been a mastering engineer, not a mixer) would be comfortable diddling with a client's mix.

Yes, a mastering engineer can ruin a record but how honestly hard is it to get a Bruce Swedien, a Tom Lord Alge, Clearmountain, etc mix to sound even better?

Probably not hard at all, but someone with broad mastering experience could take that great sounding mix and make a version for FM radio, another version for the commercial CD, a version for the export CD, and a version that would sound good as an MP3 file played back on computer speakers. That's stuff that an engineer like Bruce, who's all about the music, doesn't need to figure out how to do when there are guys like Bernie who can turn it over to with confidence. At least I hope that's the way it works.

 

(he says, playing Bruce Swedien on TV)

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Originally posted by EccentRick

My 'guess' would also include that Streisand likely knows how to control her own vocal dynamics within a relatively given range, in combination with the use of good mic technique. A musician who records, IMHO, should be able to do the same thing regarding good control of his/her attack and dynamics to honestly deserve the title.



Rick

 

 

Ummm. No. Your answer would be incorrect. Barbara sings the way she does, with no concern for technical issues. That is as it should be. She doesn't like compression, so you are going to have to be ready to record what she gives you. She's going to want a great mix in her headphones, and she isn't going to put up with any gum footed attempt to ride her vocals. You'd better be good at it. She can afford the best, and that's who (at least in her opinion) she hires.

 

We all use compressors. I've seen Bruce use compressors more aggressively than I would have thought safe. It was an 1176 on vocal set to 20:1, and workin' hard! But it sounded great. He just doesn't use them across the stereo bus, and he doesn't use them to fix his mix, or as glue. They are an effect; a sound he wants. Any mastering engineer who seriously changed the balances of a Bruce Sweidein mix would have some 'splaining to do. To Bruce.

 

I've seen other great mixers who do use compressors across the stereo bus. They are also using them as an effect to get a sound that they want. Some, like the Alge Brothers, have made a carreer out of it, and it is a huge part of their sound. Mick Guzauski uses one, too, and he gets a huge, wide and deep sound. It's really whatever works for you, and your sonic personality. It's different for everyone. That's the beauty of this job.

 

Steve

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Originally posted by Extreme Mixing

Ummm. No. Your answer would be incorrect. Barbara sings the way she does, with no concern for technical issues. That is as it should be. She doesn't like compression, so you are going to have to be ready to record what she gives you. She's going to want a great mix in her headphones, and she isn't going to put up with any gum footed attempt to ride her vocals. You'd better be good at it. She can afford the best, and that's who (at least in her opinion) she hires.


We all use compressors. I've seen Bruce use compressors more aggressively than I would have thought safe. It was an 1176 on vocal set to 20:1, and workin' hard! But it sounded great. He just doesn't use them across the stereo bus, and he doesn't use them to fix his mix, or as glue. They are an effect; a sound he wants. Any mastering engineer who seriously changed the balances of a Bruce Sweidein mix would have some 'splaining to do. To Bruce.


I've seen other great mixers who do use compressors across the stereo bus. They are also using them as an effect to get a sound that they want. Some, like the Alge Brothers, have made a carreer out of it, and it is a huge part of their sound. Mick Guzauski uses one, too, and he gets a huge, wide and deep sound. It's really whatever works for you, and your sonic personality. It's different for everyone. That's the beauty of this job.


Steve

 

 

That's all very well and good Steve - but honestly - who are you to make such statements??

You talk with authority but.....

 

I'm getting so sick of usernames like "extreme mixing" - I put up my name and web-site so you know who I am - take it or leave it - so does Craig, Phil, Lee, Gus and many others, even Bruce - why can't you get rid of the mask and come forward and state who you are so we can judge the veracity of your statements ??

 

I also address this to others on this site. Com'on get real - this is the {censored}ing net in the 21st century.

 

cheers

john

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Originally posted by John Sayers

That's all very well and good Steve - but honestly - who are you to make such statements??

You talk with authority but.....


I'm getting so sick of usernames like "extreme mixing" - I put up my name and web-site so you know who I am - take it or leave it - so does Craig, Phil, Lee, Gus and many others, even Bruce - why can't you get rid of the mask and come forward and state who you are so we can judge the veracity of your statements ??


I also address this to others on this site. Com'on get real - this is the {censored}ing net in the 21st century.


cheers

john

 

Ask him if he can get us autographs from Alvin and the Chipmunks :D

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Originally posted by John Sayers

That's all very well and good Steve - but honestly - who are you to make such statements??

You talk with authority but.....


I'm getting so sick of usernames like "extreme mixing" - I put up my name and web-site so you know who I am - take it or leave it - so does Craig, Phil, Lee, Gus and many others, even Bruce - why can't you get rid of the mask and come forward and state who you are so we can judge the veracity of your statements ??


I also address this to others on this site. Com'on get real - this is the {censored}ing net in the 21st century.


cheers

john

 

 

Sorry that you take offense to my troll name. My real name is Steve Shepherd. I live and work in LA, and have been an engineer for over 20 years. 7 years ago I built a control room at my house and installed my Pro Tools rig. The thought of mixing all inside the computer with only a keyboard and a mouse seemed pretty out there to me--like extreme skiing, or any other extreme sport-- so I called my little studio Extreme Mixing. It's not intended to be offensive, but perhaps I should rethink that.

 

If you google my name, you'll find that I did work on Alvin and the Chipmonks several years ago with John Boylan! Not my proudest accomplishment, but it was just a 4 hour day. I took a class at UCLA with Bruce in about 1984. I still have my cassette recordings of the lectures. I learned a lot from him. I also had the experience of assisting for some of the best engineers that LA has to offer. I've recorded and mixed lots of records, TV shows, films, and commercials over the years. I'm not a household name, but I have had a meaningful and successful career, by any objective standard.

 

I'll stick by what I said in my original post:

 

Barbara doesn't care about the technical aspects of your job. She wants what she wants.

 

Bruce does use compressors, just not on the stereo bus. He doesn't expect mastering to fix his mixes. He turns in exactly what he wants to hear.

 

Lots of other mixers use compressors, some of them to great effect.

 

No harm, no foul. Sorry if my screen name ticked you off.

 

Steve

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I allready found out who you were a while ago,... The Alvin and the Chipmonks remark wasn't hostile.

 

 

I love stuff like that. You have never made a secret about your name by the way.

 

Did you guys ever get that grammy btw? last year?

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