Overproduction. What's YOUR definition?

[rasputin1963]

What's your definition of "overproduction" of an album? What factors spell "overproduction" to you? Is it noticeable from the get-go, or some awareness that creeps up on you as the recording goes on?

 

I just bought the 1961 remastered CD COOL WATER, by The Sons Of The Pioneers. For those unfamiliar with this act, they were an all-male vocal sextet who sang old cowboy and Western ballads in ultra-tight harmony. (Ever see the Coen Brothers movie, THE BIG LEBOWSKI? At the very beginning, the camera trails a rolling tumbleweed, and it's the SOTP who arre singing their hit, "Tumbling Tumbleweeds".)

 

I bought the CD from Amazon recently because I specifically wanted to hear a small all-male choir singing pop songs in their natural, relaxed vocal ranges.

 

To make a long story short, I am so disappointed with this CD.... The arrangements are ultra-cheezy and sentimental, but that's not the main point... The singers are accompanied by a full orchestra (Why?, one wonders.) and the strings and other orchestral instruments almost completely drown out the singers!!! I can't hear the subtle interplay of the voices, so I can learn some arranging techniques (my initial goal).

 

I'd call that Overproduction, for sure.

 

What's your definition of Overproduction? What albums in history have disappointed you with overproduction, as you see it?

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

I just listen to the 18 tracks on the CD version

 

Cool Water

1999 CD BMG International 26051

 

a reissue of the 1959 longplay Cool Water RCA LSP 2118. The transfer is top quality, consumer call that audiophil.

 

It sounds beautiful and the music is great! Don't see what there should be "overproduced," nor do I feel the instrumentation is to cheezy or too big. Actually it is not an big orchestra, but one hornist and a very small string section.

 

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What albums in history have disappointed you with overproduction, as you see it?

 

Can't recall any. I may would call music overproduced when it contains over the top unnecessary content, for example a duduk solo in a spanish pop song, or a scottish pipe in a viennese waltz, or having a 20 second local radio spot with a netto/netto budget of $1227.50 mixed by Bruce for $9'995.55

 

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[Lee Knight]

It's all an artistic decision. Is Julie Andrews singing, "The hills are alive!" with it's swelling strings and possibly over the top dynamics "overproduced"? Is a too slick production overproduced? Donna Summers Bad Girls album, or some of the post Disco Bee Gees pop stuff, Kenny Rogers and Dolly come to mind here, are they overproduced? How about The Beatles last chord from Abbey Road?

 

I think it's an overly simplistic term. Overproduced? Does it work? Does evoke the emotions intended. Actually in the case of a lot of what's considered overproduced music, it probably does. It doesn't mean I like it necessarily, but it may not be "over" anything if that's it's intention.

[rasputin1963]

 

I just listen to the 18 tracks on the CD version Cool Water 1999 CD BMG International 26051 a reissue of the 1959 longplay Cool Water RCA LSP 2118. It sounds beautiful and the music is great! Don't see what there should be "overproduced," nor do I feel the instrumentation is to cheezy or too big. Actually it is not an big orchestra, butone hornist and a very small string section.

 

 

 

LOL, Angelo. Chacun a son gout, comme on dit. I just find those arrangements too syrupy, schmaltzy... I guess I was looking for something more intimate, straightforward and crystalline. I shouldn't be surprised you're listening to this CD in Switzerland, because the CD I bought is a German import. [i also bought a Frankie Laine that was imported from Japan. Odd that other countries preserve the memory of those ur-American acts better than American labels/distributors do.]

 

Lee, you mention the Beatles... I am reminded how many pop music connoisseurs think of Phil Spector's productions of "The Long And Winding Road" and Lennon's ROCK AND ROLL album as being overproduced.... including Lennon himself.

[Lee Knight]

 

Lee, you mention the Beatles... I am reminded how many pop music connoisseurs think of Phil Spector's productions of "The Long And Winding Road" and Lennon's ROCK AND ROLL album as being overproduced.... including Lennon himself.

 

 

Good point. My first response was really to point out how I look at these things. As I work, I'm faced with a decision every 5 minutes. More distortion? More room? Double... triple track it? Plain and mono up the middle? Scoop it? Make it ugly?

 

So my point only is that some things may not connect with us that really do fulfill the intentions of the intended audience. I mean, have you heard Kenny and Dolly sing Islands in the Steam lately. Icky. And yet... there were lot's of folks that thought that was the bee's knees.

 

I agree with Angelo too... I love the Sons of the Pioneers arrangements. It was a different time, but a good time.

[Magpel]

Tough to define, as this one really IS subjective, but one working definition might be when production elements obscure or overwhelm the performance of the song, or misrepresent its character (again, let's not get into definiing these definitions...), that's overproduction.

 

But I'm with Lee -- specify.

 

For instance, take the odd case of yesterday's auteur du jour, Sufjan Stevens. I find the fragile beauty of his folk his songs often overwhelmed and crushed by his naive orchestral aspirations. (it doesn't help that he's a pretty pedestrian orchestrator, not the Indie rock Copeland he might imagine himself to be). This is not a case of some Nashville hack producer throwing treacly strings and a female choir behind Willie Nelson as he sings about drunk murder; this is a case of self-overproduction, of self-sabotage via misguided ambition.

 

There are many flavors of overproduction. It's best handled case by case...

[Lee Knight]

...when production elements obscure or overwhelm the performance of the song, or misrepresent its character.

 

 

That's a pretty good definition.

 

BTW, I'm not sure why Islands in the Stream came to mind, as it's not particularly over the top, though it is icky. Maybe Rhinestone Cowboy's a better example. Now that has got lot's of schtuff thrown in, and yet, it makes it's point. It's glittery and over the top, just like a rhinestone cowboy might be.

 

What of a quiet song about a little girl looking at a mini painting on a piece of rice. And the strings are soaring! Maybe that works if the point is to illustrate the infinite in a grain of sand, or maybe it doesn't because the point is a small quiet moment.

 

Context.

[Rabid]

I like BT and listen to a lot of his older music, but when Emotional Technology was released my first though upon listening was "EmotionLESS Technology." Somnambulist was the hit single and I wished for a non-remixed version. The entire CD was a show of what can be done with sound rather than what can be done with music.

 

When the process becomes more important than the song, the music is overproduced.

 

Robert

[Consul]

If it makes you feel any better, Rasputin, Bob Nolan hated the strings and harpsichord additions, too. He just wanted it to be the band, their instruments, and voices. Except I think in 1961, Tommy Doss was the leader, instead of Bob.

 

Yep, here's a link: http://www.classicwebs.com/pioneers.htm

 

My sister is the world's biggest Bob Nolan and SOP fan, and has a vinyl collection that would knock your socks off.

[kurfu]

Overproduction is what I have to do to my vocal tracks before I can stand to listen back to the sound of my own voice.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alndln2]

What's your definition of "overproduction" of an album?

Cowbell on every track?

[Anderton]

There's a really interesting article in the next EQ (we're finishing up June right now) that Mike Molenda wrote about some conversations with Andy Summers. In a nutshell, Summers said that with the Police, there was a conscious effort to never have any parts that duplicated or mirrored each other in any way, but that everything was oriented toward counterpoint. If Copeland was playing a complex high-hat part, Summers would hit a chord and let it ring...that sort of thing. The article goes into much more detail, but basically, it makes a really good point about how NOT to overarrange/overproduce a song. I really enjoyed reading it.

[ultravibe]

I was surprised listening to John Denver's "Country Roads" a few weeks ago at how everything in the song is drenched with reverb. Vocals, guitars, backups - everything. And at some points, the reverbs seem to clash (at least to my ear - this was an mp3 ripped by a friend so I could learn the song for an upcoming gig, so the sound quality may have been pretty harsh.)

 

Anyhow, that song for me was definitely overproduced. The overabundance of reverb interfered with my enjoyment of the song.

[rasputin1963]

If it makes you feel any better, Rasputin, Bob Nolan hated the strings and harpsichord additions, too. He just wanted it to be the band, their instruments, and voices. Except I think in 1961, Tommy Doss was the leader, instead of Bob. Yep, here's a link: http://www.classicwebs.com/pioneers.htm My sister is the world's biggest Bob Nolan and SOP fan, and has a vinyl collection that would knock your socks off.

 

Didn't realize I was in such good company on this subject! :phil: As Lee Knight states above, it was a different time with different sensibilities... Angelo, thanks for correcting me on the original date of that SOP LP....1959, not '61. I suppose C&W acts were anxious to sound "Countrypolitan" round about that time, and disassociate themselves from the old bluegrass/hillbilly records of the 1930's and 40's. Nowadays, the more unabashedly "redneck" it sounds, the better! Ya gotta represent.

[Hard Truth]

Perhaps the concept can be best understand by its opposite-good production. One of the reasons the Beatles work stands up well with time is that it is not overproduced, largely thanks to George Martins' contributions. He would often supplement the Beatles with his own keyboard parts but you have to pay attention to notice it. His string arrangements were always restrained (except for Good Night which was intentional) and tasteful-not too many players, not too syrupy technique (i.ie. not too much vibrato) and the prominent use of cellos and violas instead of too many violins.

 

Paul Buckmaster (The Stones Moonlight Mile, early Elton John) was another excellent string arranger whose contributions consistently added to the song.

 

In my opinion almost everyone else who has added strings to rock songs made things overproduced.

[rasputin1963]

Cowbell on every track?

 

 

Alain, Yer can NEVER have too much cowbell in a mix!!

 

"All-l-l our time has come

He-e-e-ere but now they're gone..."

[philbo]

My definition: When the desire to add 'more' (more tracks, more compression, more anything) trumps the desire to let the message and emotion of the song be heard, you've already gotten lost in overproduction.

 

Of course, if the music is devoid of emotion and message, then it is not possible to overproduce it. (Pile on 27 harmony vocals! Add a string section! Bring in 7 or 8 brass players! It'll help cover the way the singer can't stay on pitch...)

 

Examples of this are out there polluting the airwaves right now... they're frickin everywhere!

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Cowbell on every track?

 

 

Are you crazy?

 

My nick name is UltraMambo

 

.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Didn't realize I was in such good company on this subject! :phil: As Lee Knight states above, it was a different time with different sensibilities... Angelo, thanks for correcting me on the original date of that SOP LP....1959, not '61. I suppose C&W acts were anxious to sound "Countrypolitan" round about that time, and disassociate themselves from the old bluegrass/hillbilly records of the 1930's and 40's. Nowadays, the more unabashedly "redneck" it sounds, the better! Ya gotta represent .

 

Well rasputin,

 

have no idea what country and western is! Never meet anyone who is a redneck! The only tune I played was "Orange Blossom Special" and that only because we had a violonist in the band in the seventies, and I know that someone who never takes his baseball cap off is a hillbilly, because Bruce told me so about a manager we had a meeting with...

 

But that "Cool Water" album from this Son Of A The Pioneers is a killer!

 

 

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[spokenward]

 

Originally posted by Hard Truth In my opinion almost everyone else who has added strings to rock songs made things overproduced.

 

 

I've been thinking about the Johnny Pate arrangements for the Impressions lately.

 

The songs don't need them - they are little jewels on their own, but the arrangements place them in your head.

[boosh]

Over Producing does not exsist. A Producer can work 3 months on a track and when it sounds slick and clean people call it over produced. I can work 6 months on a track but still make it sound raw.

 

The production time took twice as long but my track doesn't sound as produced as his one.

 

It's all relative,.... It took a gazillion years to produce Guns and Roses latest album,... does it sound overproduced? Nope,...

[boosh]

 

and I know that someone who never takes his baseball cap off is a hillbilly, because Bruce told me so .

 

 

Aaahh,... so Bruce thinks I'm a Hilbilly,....

[Lancaster]

Lee, you mention the Beatles... I am reminded how many pop music connoisseurs think of Phil Spector's productions of "The Long And Winding Road" and Lennon's ROCK AND ROLL album as being overproduced.... including Lennon himself.

 

It was terrible what Spector did to some of that Beatles stuff. "Long And Winding Road" being the worst of course.

 

Compare it to a song like "I Am The Walrus" that also has everything plus the kitchen sink on it, but it doesnt sound cluttered, overpowered, and it...works.Brilliantly.

 

For overproduction I cant forget "Frankie Goes To Hollywood" but that was a case of a {censored} band having a great producer who decided to run amok and submerse his untalented charges under walls of sound. "Power Of Love" aside, the rest of it is the Trevor Horn show.

[rasputin1963]

Well rasputin, Never meet anyone who is a redneck! .

 

 

Well, ya have now, you Yoor-oh-pee-in, you! ;) :) (he said, whistling through his only two teeth) I'm guessing Europe is somewhar's east of Waco, right?

 

 

booshy, we have a town called "Nederland" near Houston. Izzat where you from?

[Rabid]

Anyone ever notice all the wierd stuff going on in the background of the Fleetwood Mac "Rumous" albume?