Do you record cymbals separately from the rest of the kit?

[Lurko]

I heard an interview with David Lovering of the Pixies about recording "Monkey Gone to Heaven" with the band completely live, with the exception of the cymbals, which were overdubbed later (to avoid bleed, I presume). Is this common practice?

[bp]

On occasion I'll overdub some cymbals for FX, stuff like swells, bows and so on.

[kayehl]

i will often record the kik, toms, and snare with samples on a sequencer track, then overdub live cymbals later, in order to get the clean, big, sound of sampled drums, combined with the live feel of the cymbals.

[Lee Knight]

 

On occasion I'll overdub some cymbals for FX, stuff like swells, bows and so on.

 

 

I do like Tinder does sometimes. Leave the kit up and after basics, overdub swells with mallets. Missing craches sometimes. Even the odd whole overdub for effect. Sounds cool panned mono like a guitar fill.

 

Never to isolate the cymbals from the basic tracking though. I've really gotten into this "over the shoulder Glyn Johns" style of overheads for keeping the cymbals at bay. It's working...

[alphajerk]

QOTSA did it on their past couple albums. i did it on the last album i did. i cant say its something i prefer to do however.

[ryanstanley]

neat idea, especially for someone who isn't a drummer and just wants to get some drum tracks recorded.

 

i can play a lot of really cool beats, solid and on time if i dont worry about the cymbals. but the cymbals need to be there. if i did this, i bet i could get some pretty badass drum tracks on tape, and i dont even play

[UstadKhanAli]

I did this a long time ago, and it sounds fine, but prefer to record the whole kit. But it definitely has its merits, such as the suggestions above (for overdubs with drum machines or other stuff, swells, etc.).

[Roy]

Stewart Copeland did this on Police records.

[Roy]

...oh yeah, I have a midi kit and an acoustic kit. midi cymbals suck as do midi hihats so I set the midi pads up with real cymbals and overheads. this way I can play without having to do cymbal overdubs later. great for when you don't want to wake the neighbours too (cymbals are easy to isolate compared to an entire acoustic kit).

[Lee Flier]

It's an interesting thing to do for an effect... might be just the thing for a specific song. As a general practice though, I think it compromises the performance or it would for most drummers. One thing a lot of engineers seem to miss is that the drum kit is a single instrument. The drummer is "mixing himself" as he goes along and that's part of the performance. The sound of the kit as a whole is the sound of the instrument. All this focus on separating the drum kit into individual parts to "avoid bleed" can get really out of hand.

 

I don't think anybody would argue that if you recorded say the left and right hand parts of a piano part separately, it would affect the performance and the overall sound, and probably not in a good way. Or if you recorded an orchestra with each section separately, like you did the brass and then overdubbed the strings... that would be a bummer. But it's OK for some reason to do that with a drum kit. Maybe for a song or two or if the drummer specifically wants to do it for some reason. I wouldn't ask a drummer to do it.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I almost never do... sure, for a mallet cymbal swell overdub or something like that I'll do it, but for the entire song while recording an acoustic kit? Nope. Play it and I'll track it all! I find it tends to drive the drummers mad trying to play sans cymbals, and for most of them, it totally throws off their time, groove and feel.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Sharing the brain again...

[UstadKhanAli]

I agree with Lee and Phil's shared brain, as you could probably tell by my other post. But what is sometimes a fun idea is to overdub a cymbal swell into a song as an effect. But overdubbing cymbals as a general practice is not something that interests me.

 

I also want to repeat what Lee said: the drummer "mixing" him or herself. Very important.

[alphajerk]

 

I don't think anybody would argue that if you recorded say the left and right hand parts of a piano part separately, it would affect the performance and the overall sound, and probably not in a good way. Or if you recorded an orchestra with each section separately, like you did the brass and then overdubbed the strings... that would be a bummer. But it's OK for some reason to do that with a drum kit. Maybe for a song or two or if the drummer specifically wants to do it for some reason. I wouldn't ask a drummer to do it.

 

 

i record left and right parts of piano seperately... i see nothing wrong with that. as to your other examples, a string section is MULTIPLE people, and im sure that could be done as well.

 

you just come from a purist approach and that is fine, but there are many ways to skin cats.

 

btw, the drummer still hits something with their stick like a rubber bar or whatever.... fake cymbals. i found it to be pretty interesting and a GREAT way to lose the high hat bleed that inevitably gets in the snare drum mic. you really do have to have a great drummer to really pull it off. i asked joe barresi about it for the QOTSA albums and he said randy castillo and dave grohl were both very positive about and and pulled it off like champs. obviously is a decision you make ahead of time but why the {censored} not try it at least?

 

i dont care either way, i will record it as full drums and cymbals or just the wood and metal later, or i will even replace drums if that is what is needed.

[alphajerk]

 

I also want to repeat what Lee said: the drummer "mixing" him or herself. Very important.

 

 

sadly its rare they actually do this because most are deaf from playing high SPL instruments.

[Lee Flier]

 

i record left and right parts of piano seperately... i see nothing wrong with that. as to your other examples, a string section is MULTIPLE people, and im sure that could be done as well.

 

 

Sure it could be done and no doubt it HAS been done. And I didn't say there was anything "wrong" with it - like I said, it might work great for specific cases. I'm just saying that a lot of people get into something like this without thinking about how it will actually affect the performance. In general, when I record anybody I try not to do anything that will compromise the performance for the sake of having more control in the mix or whatever technical reason. If it's the performer's idea, I'm all for it. But I'm not going to tell a drummer to do something a different way just because it makes MY job easier. And I'm not going to assume I can mix the drums better than the drummer can, either.

[alphajerk]

mixing drums is like a given to mixing a song. i dont think my drums are EVER static in a mix, or im not doing my job really.

 

usually this is the drummers [or other band members] decision. last time it was my decision because of some serious issues that came about when playing the kit. of course this drummer was a RETARD.

 

here are some quotes:

"i cant count to four, i only think in triplets",

"we must have a different definition of 6",

[play 1/8th notes during the chorus] "im playing 1/8th notes there" [he was playing quarter notes]

 

[dead serious he said these things]

[Lee Flier]

LOL well I usually don't work with drummers that are that lame. The ones I deal with tend to have good dynamics and I assume they are making the drums sound like they want them to sound, and if they aren't they'll tell me, so we can work together on achieving whatever wack sound they're looking for.

[BATCAT]

Sometimes people go pretty far in the "islolate the drums like crazy" direction and yield cool results. An interesting article by Mike Hedges about recording the Cure's "17 Seconds" album.

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec04/articles/classictracks.htm?print=yes&session=3d0a07264f2fa3bf0f9d8f82aa749b14/

 

I don't know if any of you've heard this album, but it has one of the most incredibly isolated drum sounds (he miked the drums individually with with c-ducer mics and did cymbal overdubs, etc) and I for one like 'em. They sound really "cold" and dead, but it's perfect for the icy sound of the record.

[UstadKhanAli]

Cool. That's why I don't like to make "absolutes". Obviously, I have a very strong tendency to want to record the whole thing at the same time...but if there's a cool effect or something different that we're chasing, hey, I'm all for it!!!

[alphajerk]

LOL well I usually don't work with drummers that are that lame.

 

yeah, he drove me to discover the wonderful world of BFD!

[Lee Knight]

 

 

Mine this past week was... "You're really playing an 8th note triplet feel. It's 1 2 3, 2 2 3, 3 2 3, 4 2 3. Make sure our fills fall into that groove too..." At which point the drummer looked at me and said nothing. Completely blank expression. To which I replied, "You sound GREAT, Let's try it again.

[offramp]

Mine this past week was... "You're really playing an 8th note triplet feel. It's 1 2 3, 2 2 3, 3 2 3, 4 2 3. Make sure our fills fall into that groove too..." At which point the drummer looked at me and said nothing. Completely blank expression. To which I replied, "You sound GREAT, Let's try it again.

 

 

This is really depressing, that my breed is being so frighteningly represented.

[alphajerk]

hell, my PREFERRED way of recording a band is all in the same room, no cans, full bleed everyone playing everything live at once. nobody can really do that however, or VERY few. so i give and take until i can get something comfortable with everyone.

[blue2blue]

Do you record cymbals separately from the rest of the kit?

 

 

I tried that but it was too hard for the drummer to reach them.