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Mac experts: help needed


Paully

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I have an Emac with G4 processor and OSX 10.2. Whenever I turn it on with a Firewire device plugged in and turned 'on', the computer goes to that black screen before the desktop comes up and prompts me to turn off and re-boot. If I leave the FW units unplugged or 'off', the Emac opens the desktop every time with no problem. From there, I can either plug in or turn on any FW device and procede normally. There are 2 FW buses, and the problem occures with either one. It's not a fatal problem, but it is extremely annoying. Any thoughts would be really appreciated. Thanks.

 

Paul

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It could be a handful of things.

 

Usually--in my experience--it's been the RAM, either having gone faulty, or having become slightly unseated. I don't know how hard it is to get those machines open, but if you can, get in there and reseat the RAM sticks. Try booting again as you described. If the problem persists, poull one stick at a time; keep rebooting as before. If the problem stops after pulling one of the sticks, then it's that stick of RAM.

 

Another thing to try would be one of the basics: repairing permissions. Disconnect all external devices, and repair permission. Then, reconnect one at a time, repairing permission each time. See what that does.

 

You might also try booting from the original system disc. It will appear as if you're going to end up reinstalling the OS, but you can bypass that, go right into utilities, and repair the permissions that way.

 

I highly recommend getting TechToolPro. The maintenance suite in that program is excellent. But, you'll have to get the version that would work with your OS version, therefore...

I would also take this opportunity to highly recommend you get out of Jaguar and into Panther, up to 10.3.9.

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Usually--in my experience--it's been the RAM, either having gone faulty, or having become slightly unseated...

Hey offramp,

 

So far I've upgraded the RAM 3 times, from 250mB to 1G, each time with new boards, so I don't think that's the problem. I'll definately try re-booting the OS from the disk and see what happens. Hopefully that'll work. Then I'll just re-install OSX. I'm also really overdue to upgrade the whole package, from box to OS. Unfortunately I don't think my (older) version of Logic will support the new machines/OSs, so I'm hoping to clear this up with the current stuff. BTW, any idea where TechToolPro can be found? I've never heard of it. Thanks for the suggestions :thu: .

 

Best, Paul

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Ignore him. He's trying to start a PC/Mac flame war.

 

TechToolPro can be found at MicroMat.com or at any local computer store that carries both Apple and the other guys.

 

When you do upgrade your OS, take a few minutes and click through the install options; in there you'll find all sorts of stuff that you'll never need, and you'll have the option to simply not install. (How often are you going to run the computer in Finnish? That's what I thought.) You can also not install drivers for a ton of printers you'll never use. You'll save a ton of hard drive space, just by eliminating languages and drivers, alone.

 

And don't be so sure about the RAM. It can fail at any time, new sticks or not.

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BLOATsx

 

Jeez Barrett... can you be more Alpha and less Jerk for awhile? ;)

 

Paully: this doesn't sound like a RAM thing to me. I think the eMac might have some firmware issues with FireWire. First, is there a reason you can't be running 10.3.9 instead of 10.2? I'd say that would be the first step in getting it to work correctly.

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First, is there a reason you can't be running 10.3.9 instead of 10.2? I'd say that would be the first step in getting it to work correctly.

 

First off, thanks for all the suggestions.

 

To tell the truth, I'm flatout afraid to try upgrading, only because there are so many horror stories on the Apple forums about OSX to Panther and Jaguar. One little mismatch (hardware or software) at any step and the Macs won't even boot. I'll probably wait til a proven combo comes along, then go to a dual core G5 setup and Logic7.

 

Right now, my setup works perfectly except for the annoying grey-screen error at boot with FW devices connected. I just unplug them, boot, reconnect them and go. An extra 30 seconds. AAR, thanks again. I'll keep putzing at it.

 

Oh ya (Alpha), I run on both platforms, and PC is no box of chocolates either :D . Let's all concentrate on, and worry about ending the big war before we open fire on that battlefield :thu: .

 

Best, Paul

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To tell the truth, I'm flatout afraid to try upgrading, only because there are so many horror stories on the Apple forums about OSX to Panther and Jaguar. One little mismatch (hardware or software) at any step and the Macs won't even boot. I'll probably wait til a proven combo comes along, then go to a dual core G5 setup and Logic7.

 

 

You need to consider that the horror stories you read on the Apple forums are a very small percentage of the actual end-user experience. No one ever gets on there to start a thread about how great their machine is running. Basing your decisions on the Apple forums is like going into an emergency room and assuming the entire human population is about to keel over.

 

Of those stories, a majority of them are from people who, ultimately, did not do their research, follow common-sense procedures and protocols when making any changes; a small minority of them are from people who actually have a lemon on their hands, which Apple has been quite good about correcting. Your concern that "one little mismatch" renders an Apple unbootable is fear-based anecdotal, at best.

 

Proven combos have been around for some time. I've got 10.3.9 on an MDD G4, with MOTU hardware, and have no compelling reason to move to Tiger on it. My MacBookPro has Tiger by default, so I have no choice but to use it, as it won't run Panther. Know what? My MOTU hardware and software runs just fine on that, too. If anything, you're causing yourself more hurt by sticking with Jaguar.

 

Update everything. All drivers, all software. Yes, it's work, but done right the first time, it becomes essentially transparent until the next major upgrade.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Jeff's right; while out of all the times I got the dreaded MRS (multilingual restart screen), the majority of them were RAM related, there was a period where I got some because of a known USB driver chip issue on that particular machine. I did not know about it, because I had not done my homework. There's little reason why it couldn't be a Firewire driver issue. Again, most of mine were RAM related, so I just went with what I knew best.

 

Do not let irrational fear stop you from moving forward on your machine. Dive in...there's always a life preserver nearby.

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OK offramp, you and Jeff have shamed me into it. There is however a lot of rumble about bogus (grey label) software for Panther, etc., but I think this it the legit place to buy: http://applerescue.com/ . Give it a look and see if it looks OK. I just hate to compromise my current system, which is basically working great, with an upgrade performed by an admittedly unschooled beginner (that would be me).. who's never attempted this before :cry: .

 

One question. When installing an upgrade, does the installer remove OSX 10.2 automatically, or must that be done manually? That's usually the way on a PC. Dunno about Mac. Also, does it affect music software and periferals which required driver installations. Does all that need to be reinstalled? IOW, am I starting at ground zero? OOPS, that's two questions :lol: .

 

Thanks, Paul

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If it were an in-version upgrade--from, say, 10.3.1 to 10.3.9--there would be no loss. Since you're going from Jag to Panther or above, it'll be a clean install. 10.2 will be deleted. You will, effectively, be starting at ground zero. There is an option to save the contents of your previous system folder in a non-bootable space, but you really don't want to mess with that and I'm not entirely sure that it would work when jumping versions.

 

I might suggest something:

Get a new hard drive for the machine. Put your new OS on that. Take your original hard drive, and put it in an external Firewire case. That way, you can have all your existing apps accessible until you can make the transition complete. You could, if you wanted to, boot from that, but I wouldn't recommend it, at this point. Risky, given the Firewire issues you're having. What you'll be gaining is access to your apps as they are, BUT...you'll be running in the new OS, and if there's any issues--driver updates, etc.--then working this way will expose them. Make a list as you find them, download whatever you need, then re-install all your apps, but on the NEW hard drive.

 

One note: Whenever I install a new OS, before I initiate it, I use the utilities menu to put a partition on the hard drive, effectively creating two drives on one. I do this because I keep my OS and apps on one partition, and all the other stuff on the rest. Doing this provides you a better chance of data recovery or protection should something catastrophic happen in the future. You could reinstall the OS without destroying anything you've created. It doesn't have to be an even split; out of an 80G hard drive, for example, I would make a 30G partition and a 50G one, putting the OS and apps on the 30. Now, in reality, the OS willl probably not use more than 12 or 15, but I like to double the amount, for purposes of maintenance tasks, like optimization... the computer's generally happier, I find, when it has enough space to put data on hold while it's sorting. Hard drive space being as cheap as it is anymore, this really doesn't bother me.

 

Oh, and make sure you've maxxed out your memory. Panther likes to eat.

 

You can also find a lot of guidance at www.macgurus.com.

 

Oh, and search the Apple database for any firmware issues, like Jeff mentioned. If there are firmware updaters, you'll need to install them first before you do anything else. Very important.

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+1 to everything Offramp said.

 

Just a side note: 10.3.9 is way more stable than 10.2 was. In fact, 10.3.9 is one of those "leave it cause it works" Mac OS'es (kinda like 7.6.1 back in the day). As you can tell, I've skipped 10.4 entirely and I'm planning on updating my OS next to 10.5.x (Leopard), after a sufficient time span for folks to test it on my behalf. ;)

 

It's supposedly coming in October as of the latest news. Until then, I'll keep chugging away in Panther.

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One thing to consider is that firewire is boot capable. This means that your Mac could sense a firewire device present on the bus and be waiting to see if it contains a bootable volume.

 

As for checking RAM I would suggest using Rember > or (if you don't need some sissy GUI) memtest. This is a way, way more thorough test than the Apple check. I've seen many sticks of RAM fail Rember that passed the Apple utility with flying colors.

 

The other possiblity is that your firewire device is drawing too much power from the firewire bus.

 

Wayne

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Thanks guys. Now I know what's involved in the upgrade. It sounds fairly standard.

 

 

The other possiblity is that your firewire device is drawing too much power from the firewire bus...

 

Hi Wayne,

 

That was my thinking, as the problem really only occurs when one particular piece of FW equipment is plugged in: an M-Audio 410. If it's anywhere in the FW serial chain, it will cause the problem unless every device ahead of it is turned 'off'. Same condition on both FW buses. The only reason I haven't checked the 410 with the external power supply plugged in is because the 410's directions specifically say not to, rather to rely on bus power. As mentioned, the 410 will work if hot-plugged after the box has been booted. Think I'm gonna try it with the ex-PS and see what happens.

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That was my thinking, as the problem really only occurs when one particular piece of FW equipment is plugged in: an M-Audio 410. If it's anywhere in the FW serial chain, it will cause the problem unless every device ahead of it is turned 'off'. Same condition on both FW buses. The only reason I haven't checked the 410 with the external power supply plugged in is because the 410's directions specifically say not to, rather to rely on bus power. As mentioned, the 410 will work if hot-plugged after the box has been booted. Think I'm gonna try it with the ex-PS and see what happens.

 

THIS is information we needed in the first place!!:mad::eek:

 

I can't imagine why they'd suggest bus-only power for testing. You might ask Gus Lozada, see if he knows anything.

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The other possiblity is that your firewire device is drawing too much power from the firewire bus...

Wayne, you are a genius, and the story has a happy ending. It was the lack of the external supply. It really had me stumped, because the 410 worked fine on bus power after booting. It just wouldn't allow logon if plugged in. AAR, everything works fine now.

 

Offramp and Jeff, thanks so much for staying with me on the problem. I'm definately going to go for one of the upgrades, and TechToolPro is getting ordered later today. You guys are great :thu: .

 

Best, Paul

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