Members ryan7585 Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 i just refuse to believe that this is my only option. i cant record for {censored} with this thing. sounds dead as all hell- how do you get that power, resonance and texture of the source sound on tape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 23, 2007 Moderators Share Posted May 23, 2007 First off, it ain't from the mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paully Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 The 57 is the most popular and used mic in the world for recording rock guitar thru an amp, so don't blame the mic. You have to experiment with placement and the gain structure, not to mention good pres and converters if your tracking digitally, to get it right going into the recorder. THEN you have to process it and mix it correctly to get what I think you're looking for. It don't come overnite . FWIW, make sure you've bought a real Shure mic. Looks can be deceiving. There are Chinese knockoffs out there that ain't worth crap. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 My opinions.... First of all, I love the 57 for guitar amps, but...I don't think it's good for everything. For clean sounds, I always feel that I need to augment this with a condenser 8-10 ft. away (depending on the sound and song, of course). Also, I think that the 57 differs a lot depending on what kind of mic preamps you use. Again, this is personal taste, but I don't like a 57 through Mackie mic preamps (at least, the VLZ series). It just doesn't sound exciting. I like it through my Peavey VMP-2, and love it through my Neve Portico with the Silk Button engaged. I tend to prefer a 421 close up and either an AT4060 farther away for most rhythm sounds. I tend to prefer 57s for leads, although I think they do sound good on rhythm gtr. as well. Occasionally, I will use an Avenson STO-2 for leads (it's an omni, and sometimes, it kinda opens up the sound a bit, and also, I don't get proximity effect). I use the Avenson through the Neve Portico with Silk Mode engaged. I find it generally very easy to get a great sound (especially with distortion) with a 57, personally. What else is in your signal chain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 The thing to is that people will always say that there are better options than the 57, but really, I've sort of "rediscovered" what an awesome mic the 57 really is in the last year or two, and it really is a great mic to use for guitar cabinets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 The '57 is a tried and true workhorse mic, and it's probably been used on more snare drums and guitar cabinet recordings than any other mic in history. It's certainly capable of giving you good results on guitars... Trick #1 is to make sure you have the sound you want coming out of the amp. "Sources matter", and no mic is going to magically turn a so-so sounding amp into a thing of beauty, so make sure you're digging what you're hearing at the amp first. Trick #2 is to get the amp up off the floor. A milk crate, chair or amp stand is a good tool to have around for recording combo amps. If you have them sitting on the floor, they tend to sound bass-heavy and undefined, and reflections off the floor can get into the mic along with the direct sound and muddy things up even more. For 4X12 cabs, I like to use angled cabs, and I audition / listen to all four speakers to determine which one I like the sound of the best - they usually all sound at least slightly different, even if they're all the same make / model. Mic placement matters. Stick the SM57 about 1" away from the grille and aim it directly at the center of the speaker's dustcap (the round thing in the center of the speaker) for a brighter tone... moving the mic further out towards the edge of the speaker cone will give you a warmer / bassier tone with less brightness. Sometimes I like to put the mic about 1/2 way between the dustcap and the outer edge of the speaker cone, but angle it in slightly towards the dustcap - that usually gives me a good, balanced tone. Using a more distantly placed room mic, in addition to the dynamic mic up close, can also give good results. I tend to record any additional microphone(s) to seperate tracks, so I can blend them to taste at mixdown. Alternatives to the SM57? I use a lot of different things. I like Audix mikes on guitar cabs a lot - especially the i5 and the D2. Both tend to give me a little less of the low-midrange "mud frequencies", which is an attribute of those microphones I really appreciate. Sometimes I also use other dynamic microphones, such as the Electro-Voice RE20, and Sennheiser MD421 or e609. Other good choices IMHO include ribbon microphones such as the Beyer M160 (a personal favorite) or the Royer ribbons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryan7585 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 hm well thanks for the advice guys, it looks like i just need to buy a preamp and work on my placement. right now im just running the sm57 straight into my m-audio firewire 410, putting the mic right on the cloth at the center of the speaker im recording a telecaster through and old MXR pedal into an Orange tube AD30, with that kind of edge-of-breakup sound. i just can't seem to pick up on the dirt- it just sounds clean, yet harsh and kinda weak, while the amp itself sounds really great. i guess it'll just take some working on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 I'm wondering if the tone is good, but isn't pushing enough spl to really 'work' that 57. How many decibels do you think you're pushing when at 'optimal tone'? I've never been pleased with the sound of a dynamic on an amp that isn't very loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryan7585 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 I'm wondering if the tone is good, but isn't pushing enough spl to really 'work' that 57.How many decibels do you think you're pushing when at 'optimal tone'?I've never been pleased with the sound of a dynamic on an amp that isn't very loud. well if anything id say he's got it TOO loud, so i wouldn't figure that'd be the problem really more than anything i just want that "REAL GUITAR" sound to actually translate to recording. it just sounds so powerful and awesome in real life. on the recording its like it's just sound and no life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Well if the amp is too loud that is definitely going to steal some life out of the sound. After a certain point, the louder you turn the amp the worse it will sound on the recording, because you're just killing the mic and/or preamp (and I agree that if you're using a 57 on a loud source, the preamp is very important - if it doesn't have enough headroom it doesn't sound good at all). In general you should use a bit less volume and distortion on a recorded amp than you would live. You think it isn't quite enough when you hear it in the room, then you listen to the recording and it is. I'll also add that there is no real substitute for the visceral experience of a cranked amp, and ANY recording is going to sound a bit disappointing by comparison. I usually HATE any guitar tracks that I record, on the day I record them, then when my ears have had a chance to stop expecting to hear the live sound of the amp, it might sound great. So never make snap judgements about these things, listen back the next day and make sure it's really as bad as you think it is. Oh, and one other thing - is it a new 57? I've seen a lot of people buy a 57 used and it's been beat to crap, like it was used as a house mic at a bar or something, and sounds about like you'd expect. The 57 is durable and will keep working under the most dire of circumstances, which is why it's used so much for live sound. But it doesn't necessarily sound great after it's been worn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryan7585 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Well if the amp is too loud that is definitely going to steal some life out of the sound. After a certain point, the louder you turn the amp the worse it will sound on the recording, because you're just killing the mic and/or preamp (and I agree that if you're using a 57 on a loud source, the preamp is very important - if it doesn't have enough headroom it doesn't sound good at all). In general you should use a bit less volume and distortion on a recorded amp than you would live. You think it isn't quite enough when you hear it in the room, then you listen to the recording and it is. I'll also add that there is no real substitute for the visceral experience of a cranked amp, and ANY recording is going to sound a bit disappointing by comparison. I usually HATE any guitar tracks that I record, on the day I record them, then when my ears have had a chance to stop expecting to hear the live sound of the amp, it might sound great. So never make snap judgements about these things, listen back the next day and make sure it's really as bad as you think it is. D: Oh, and one other thing - is it a new 57? I've seen a lot of people buy a 57 used and it's been beat to crap, like it was used as a house mic at a bar or something, and sounds about like you'd expect. The 57 is durable and will keep working under the most dire of circumstances, which is why it's used so much for live sound. But it doesn't necessarily sound great after it's been worn out. well yeah this ones brand new but you had some good points! thanks for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted May 23, 2007 Moderators Share Posted May 23, 2007 And I always like the sound of a 57 up on the amp more after I've blended in a condenser from farther back. The sound remains predominantly 57, but having that real room tone blended in gets it closer to the experience of standing in front of the amp going... whoa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lakesidedave Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 ... it just sounds so powerful and awesome in real life. on the recording its like it's just sound and no life Where, in relation to the speaker, does it sound powerful and awesome? That's where you should place the mic as a starting point. You need to record what's going on in the air. About the only thing I use on cabs is a 57, positioned where it sounds good, and a Blue Baby Bottle 3-4 feet back in the room, for a bit more 'life'. Mix to taste, experiment with flipping the phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 And I always like the sound of a 57 up on the amp more after I've blended in a condenser from farther back. The sound remains predominantly 57, but having that real room tone blended in gets it closer to the experience of standing in front of the amp going... whoa. Yeah, I do that a lot too... if the room doesn't sound like crap, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryan7585 Posted May 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 hm the room mic is probably gonna be a big factor. for some reason i didnt even think about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paully Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Where, in relation to the speaker, does it sound powerful and awesome? That's where you should place the mic as a starting point. You need to record what's going on in the air. Probably the best, and certainly the least expensive advice you're gonna get. If the mic is in front of the speaker, and the speaker's on the floor, AND you're standing 2-3 feet above it and off to the side, you're not hearing the same thing that the mic is. Get a mic where it sounds good to you. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 And I always like the sound of a 57 up on the amp more after I've blended in a condenser from farther back. The sound remains predominantly 57, but having that real room tone blended in gets it closer to the experience of standing in front of the amp going... whoa. I record at least 80% of my guitar with a condenser farther back. You can control the blend and get it sounding nice and big. Phil's suggestion of getting the amp off the floor helps quite a bit as well. Also, the proximity effect can be a big thing...back off on the Bass EQ of the amp if you are getting something that sounds too muddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members halljams Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 KSM-44, seriously.Even better a U-67. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members steveg Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 I like Sennheiser e609 up close to the speaker as an option to SM57 I like a condenser mic somewhere else in the room I just got a Cascade DR-2 ribbon after a few tests, it is a great option for guitar cabs. Right now it seems best about 2 feet away from the speaker, closer it seems muddy to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 well if anything id say he's got it TOO loud, so i wouldn't figure that'd be the problemreally more than anything i just want that "REAL GUITAR" sound to actually translate to recording. it just sounds so powerful and awesome in real life. on the recording its like it's just sound and no life You need more air. Back up the mic off the grill cloth about 3" and position it more relative to the edge of the speaker cone or somewhere between the cone and the edge. Try angling the mic, too. It sounds like you want more room sound, and less in your face. Set your mixer channel fader at unity gain. Adjust the trim/gain knob until you are getting optimal signal level (using the meters....don't tell Bruce...). Once you are sure that your signal path is properly gain staged, then try experimenting with the placement of the mic (using your ears...tell Bruce.). You may need to make adjustments to your levels depending on the distance of the mic to the speaker. It would be nice if you could get another mic (a PZM, or a LDC) and sum two channels to get the perfect balance of in your face and live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the recluse Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 +1 on Lee Flier's point about variances from mic to mic. When my band was recording it's last album, the studio we used had about a dozen 57s and every time we started a session we would have to try out 3-4 of them to find an acceptable one. Also we used a Shure SM7B (I think that's the model) for several of the guitar tracks and it sounded awesome. It's a mic that's primarily used for vocals in broadcasting but it did a great job on heavy guitar (Dual Rectifier through a Mesa cab with EVs). That being said, this studio also has a lot of very good high end preamps so I'm sure that was a major factor as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Another vote here for the E609. I've been using them on guitars with the cover bands I've worked with for a good while now. They're a little warmer than the 57 but still give the bite that the 57 does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members halljams Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Another vote here for the E609. They are good snare drum mikes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hard Truth Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 All the approaches described above are valid. I think the most important factor is to listen to the results as you try different mics and different mic placements. There is nothing wrong with a 57 but I have gotten a slightly fuller, better sound with both Audix i5s and Sennheiser MD421s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2007 Members Share Posted May 25, 2007 I've gotten fuller sounds with a 421 as well. I use a 421 for rhythms most of the time. Good mic for stuff. Like a fuller 57. Still, though, 57s are awesome for a lot of applications, including distorted guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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