So why don't railroads work?

[nat whilk II]

Maybe I'm just ignorant and naive, but I get on the road and marvel at the stunning number of 18-wheelers and other big transport rigs rumbling and spewing their way ceaselessy back and forth the interstates, and I can't help but wonder:

 

The railway makes such a relatively small impact - the two thin rails, crossties, and the embankment...and one, two, three engines that can pull Lord knows how many dozens of cars with maybe two stacked boxes on each..isn't one big train diesel pulling some huge multiple of loads in comparison to an 18-wheeler's efficiency in hauling loads?

 

Obviously the 18-wheelers are more flexible as to destination and timing, but still....would we need a fraction of the big road rigs if the railroads handled most of the long-haul traffic, and the individual trucks picked it up from the railyards for local destinations?

 

And the safety of railroads compared to interstates crammed with big road rigs? Isn't there a huge cost in that, too?

 

I grew up always hearing from the grumpy old men that "unions killed the railroads". I haven't made it a subject for study, so maybe the grumpy old men were right, maybe not. But are they still shackeled and emasculated by these hearsay unions?

 

Are there places in the world where trains are used as the major conduit for freight? Does it work? Is it progressive or regressive in terms of the economies?

 

Always curious about everything I guess...

 

nat whilk ii

[Billster]

I've suggested for a long time that revitalizing heavy freight railroading would be a huge plus.

 

Getting the semi-trucks off the highways:

 

#1 - Would be ease a lot of congestion for smaller vehicle traffic, which would move more efficiently.

#2 - Lessen the impact on the highways themselves because the road wouldn't be subjected to 40 ton trucks pounding every minor imperfection into a major problem. The roads would last longer and require less maintenance, which would again ease congestion and allow traffic to move more efficiently.

[John S. Shinal]

Railroads still carry a huge amount of freight. The standardized shipping containers are common stacks on freight cars, and there is a lot of chemical and bulk products (plywood, shingles, stone, plastic pellets, grains) that go by rail.

 

Strangely enough, I don't recall seeing autos moving from port traveling by rail - but that may be a security issue.

 

Rail is actually a lot less expensive in ton/distance if the destination is suitable. Moving 8000-15000 tons per train saves a lot of expense. Personally I'm impressed by locomotives...something about four turbosupercharged diesels producing 14000 horsepower impresses me.

[elsongs]

What are you talking about? Railroads are carrying more volumes of freight than ever and are making more money than ever, because of international trade. Of course now there are only five major railroads running in the USA due to mergers and the like.

 

Most trains these days are not comprised of boxcars but of "well cars" that carry Intermodal containers that are 20'-53' in length. These containers are able to travel on ships, then places on trains then later placed on trucks and come from or sent to their final destinations. It is an amazingly efficient way to haul freight, as nothing needs to be removed during transit.

 

In addition, unit trains carrying commodities like coal, grain, petroleum, corn syrup, iron ore, etc travel the rails to coastal ports for export.

 

The railroads are also hurting up for jobs. A huge percentage of the baby boomer workfoce is expected to retire in the next decade, leaving a potential job market opportunity.

 

The United States leads the world in railroad freight volume, as the country is large enough to warrant high volumes of freight to be transferred from coast to coast in a relatively fast time, but not too large (compared to say Russia) where coast to coast transportation takes too long.

 

It's only in passenger railroads where the US is way behind the industrialized world...Many countries have high-speed rail networks in place. The automobile/oil lobby keeps hindering the development of high speed rail corridors in the US.

[elsongs]

Strangely enough, I don't recall seeing autos moving from port traveling by rail - but that may be a security issue.

 

 

Next time you see a train with these kinds of freight cars:

 

 

They are carrying cars, vans and SUVs, stacked two or three levels high. They are 89' long and called "autorack" cars. Most automobiles travel across the country via rail. Many port cities have autorack terminals where they are loaded into these cars via ramps at the end.

[blue2blue]

Trucks offer point to point movement.

 

Most rail shipments in the US require local transportation at either end, which means additional costs in terms of loading/offloading vis a vis putting it on a truck once and taking it off once.

[elsongs]

 

Trucks offer point to point movement. Most rail shipments in the US require local transportation at either end, which means additional costs in terms of loading/offloading vis a vis putting it on a truck once and taking it off once.

 

 

Gone are the days when crews have to unload crates from boxcars and put them in trucks. Intermodal containers and TOFC (aka piggyback) transit make this quick, easy and inexpensive.

 

This is done quickly and efficiently by rail, and rail has the advantages when larger bulk volumes are involved (a train can keep moving while truck driver has to pull over at a truck stop).

 

I'm gonna re-post your comments in the trains.com forums:

http://www.trains.com/TRC/CS/forums/111/ShowForum.aspx

The folks there will get a good laugh out of what's being said here, though it's interesting to note the mainstream perception on the state of the railroads.

[nat whilk II]

I started the thread pointing up my ignorance and naivety, so let'm laugh...and I find the things you knowledgeable folks are saying to be of real interest...

 

I've seen the big containers stacked all over the docks in Seattle like so many colored toy blocks by the jillion - and I've had enough snap to note the same containers on the trains that run through town.

 

I also had a client once who ran a software company that developed computer algorythms for optimizing the use of railway assets...their big contract was with BritRail if I recall rightly.

 

Forgive my mainstream perception, but I still see exponential growth in interstate traffic, in large part due to more big rigs...and except for the use of the nifty new cargo boxes, I can't think of the last time I've seen evidence of increased railway useage, much less a NEW railway being laid.

 

I'm mostly wondering if there is a cause here to champion that makes sense for energy, environmental, and economic reasons. And if there is, what the current state of affairs is that helps or hinders the cause.

 

nat whilk ii

[Prog]

The railroads have to own or lease all of the property on which the rails sit. The trucking industry uses public-subsidized roads.

 

That's a big component in how air travel was able to get a foothold over rail travel. No airline "owns" a runway or an airport. They were all built with public money, while the railroads had to buy/lease land and pay property tax on the rail line.

 

Even so, rail was developed for bulk commodities (originally for coal in Wales). Moving people has always been marginally profitable in all forms and is a guaranteed money-loser for rail (it HAS to be subsidized).

[elsongs]

 

I can't think of the last time I've seen evidence of increased railway useage, much less a NEW railway being laid.

 

 

Here in Los Angeles, something called the Alameda Corridor was built, a triple-tracked freight rail "highway" that ran in a sunken ditch constructed mostly below street level. The purpose was to redirect all the regional rail traffic to/from the ports in Los Angeles and Long Beach (the busiest in the USA) into those tracks, which lead to the big transcontinental rail routes, to help speed up their shipping time and avoid railroad crossings. It opened in 2003. Perhaps most people believe the railroads are "dying" simply because they don't see them as much anymore, but they're hauling more than ever.

 

Railways are also constantly getting upgraded. Wooden railroad ties are fast becoming the thing of the past. Modern, high-traffic railroad lines use concrete ties because the newer trains are bigger, heavier and faster.

 

Your television, your car and chances are the very computer you're typing on was hauled via train.

[rasputin1963]

Do railroad cars still have hobos?

[nat whilk II]

 

Here in Los Angeles, something called the Alameda Corridor was built, a triple-tracked freight rail "highway" that ran in a sunken ditch constructed mostly below street level. The purpose was to redirect all the regional rail traffic to/from the ports in Los Angeles and Long Beach (the busiest in the USA) into those tracks, which lead to the big transcontinental rail routes, to help speed up their shipping time and avoid railroad crossings.

 

 

Man, such a project could never be built in my town without some sort of State or even Federal overriding of local objections...we can hardly put in a new bike lane somewhere without arguing about it for years.

 

Was the Alameda Corridor a CA State-level project? And how did they deal with local objections and all that?

 

nat whilk ii

[Anderton]

Well, learned something new today from SSS...as to passenger trains, New Mexico has started an experiment called the "Railrunner"...eventually it will cover the I 25 corridor from Albuquerque to Santa Fe. If it ends up with a terminal at the airport, I'm in, big-time. Even just as a way for my wife and daughter to go to the "big city" without having to brave the highways will make it worthwhile for me. Meanwhile, it's going to Albuquerque's bedroom communities...it had huge ridership when it started off and was free, but that's dropped down a bit. Still, it's guardedly considered a success.

[elsongs]

 

Forgive my mainstream perception, but I still see exponential growth in interstate traffic, in large part due to more big rigs...and except for the use of the nifty new cargo boxes, I can't think of the last time I've seen evidence of increased railway useage, much less a NEW railway being laid.

 

 

The way intermodal container shipping works is:

International travel: containers are carried by ships.

 

Example: Toaster oven is made in China. The boxes are put in a container then hauled by truck to the port in Shanghai where the containers are loaded on a ship. Ship travels across the Pacific to the USA.

 

Interstate travel: containers are carried by trains.

 

Ship arrives at the Port of Los Angeles and a number of containers are unloaded and stacked on well cars on a Union Pacific train. This train runs from Los Angeles to Chicago.

 

Regional travel: containers are carried by trucks.

 

Train arrives in the Chicago area, containers are unloaded and placed on truck chassis. One truck, carrying the toaster ovens made in China, gets on the highway and travels to a distribution center. The appropriate number of toaster ovens are sorted out and placed in other trucks. One of them travels to Indiana where its toaster ovens get sold at a Wal-Mart.

 

See how it works now?

 

All three modes of transport play a role. When you see a truck on the road, it is most likely making its first or last leg of a long freight journey.

[elsongs]

 

Man, such a project could never be built in my town without some sort of State or even Federal overriding of local objections...we can hardly put in a new bike lane somewhere without arguing about it for years. Was the Alameda Corridor a CA State-level project? And how did they deal with local objections and all that? nat whilk ii

 

 

It was, and was also co-sponsored by the railroads that use it. It was very high priority because it is so vital to US International trade. I forgot the exact figures, but a HUGE percentage of exported and imported goods run through that corridor. It runs through largely industrial areas, so the impact on residents was minimal, plus avoiding railroad crossings made it safer for the public in the long run as trains don't have to worry about grade crossing accidents.

[scud133]

don't forget all the unions associated with the trucking industry they would never let that happen

 

too many jobs to lose to ever publicly support the reduction of the trucking industry (even if an alternative is better)

[elsongs]

 

don't forget all the unions associated with the trucking industry they would never let that happen too many jobs to lose to ever publicly support the reduction of the trucking industry (even if an alternative is better)

 

 

The railroad workers also belong to unions, you know...

[Hard Truth]

Of interest to me is that many railroad or former railroad comapnies are big in real estate and development, taking adavantage of the land that was given to the railroads for free or at a subsidized rate long ago.

 

In my uninformed opinion it seems to me that if the land was provided to the RR for free or at a low cost in the interest of promoting the growth of the industry, then the RR companies should not be allowed to use the land for other profitable purposes. They should use the land for RR purposes or give it back.

 

I'm looking forward to a reponse from our resident expert.

[meccajay]

So elsongs..

 

Knowing what you know about rail/trucking etc. Are there anyways that you can think of(to pick your brain if you will) to use/modify the current rail system in a way that would better serve a city's local transportion gridlocks? Are there other countries doing things any differently for example?

[nat whilk II]

 

The way intermodal container shipping works is: International travel: containers are carried by ships. Example: Toaster oven is made in China. The boxes are put in a container then hauled by truck to the port in Shanghai where the containers are loaded on a ship. Ship travels across the Pacific to the USA. Interstate travel: containers are carried by trains. Ship arrives at the Port of Los Angeles and a number of containers are unloaded and stacked on well cars on a Union Pacific train. This train runs from Los Angeles to Chicago. Regional travel: containers are carried by trucks. Train arrives in the Chicago area, containers are unloaded and placed on truck chassis. One truck, carrying the toaster ovens made in China, gets on the highway and travels to a distribution center. The appropriate number of toaster ovens are sorted out and placed in other trucks. One of them travels to Indiana where its toaster ovens get sold at a Wal-Mart. See how it works now? All three modes of transport play a role. When you see a truck on the road, it is most likely making its first or last leg of a long freight journey.

 

 

I wonder if imports from Mexico are simply being trucked north over the border and up I-35, and have no rail leg...at least from the daily disaster I35 is as it runs through the cities and corridors in Texas...

 

Maybe we need a joint rail project with Mexico.

 

Hey Gus, see to it, okay?

 

nat whilk ii

[elsongs]

 

Of interest to me is that many railroad or former railroad comapnies are big in real estate and development, taking adavantage of the land that was given to the railroads for free or at a subsidized rate long ago. In my uninformed opinion it seems to me that if the land was provided to the RR for free or at a low cost in the interest of promoting the growth of the industry, then the RR companies should not be allowed to use the land for other profitable purposes. They should use the land for RR purposes or give it back. I'm looking forward to a reponse from our resident expert.

 

 

Not to defend the railroads but a lot of those regulations have been grandfathered over the years. Also nearly all railroads have spun off their land holdings divisions into separate companies...hey, that's capitalism for ya!

[elsongs]

 

I wonder if imports from Mexico are simply being trucked north over the border and up I-35, and have no rail leg...at least from the daily disaster I35 is as it runs through the cities and corridors in Texas... Maybe we need a joint rail project with Mexico. Hey Gus, see to it, okay? nat whilk ii

 

 

Kansas City Southern RR has tracks in both countries and handles most US-Mexico rail freight. I also heard Union Pacific wants to build a line south (there you go, a railroad expansion) to Baja California but there's some concerns from farm communities north of the border who live along the proposed route.

 

Some cities have proposed restricted hours for truck travel or even separate highways or lanes just for trucks. I'm sure that'll work but trucking companies will probably be inclined to increase rates, thus increasing the price of the products they haul as well.

[Tedster]

Just as an aside...

 

If you've never taken a long rail trip...do so. I think it's one of the coolest ways to travel possible. It's like a land cruise...you can carry your luggage onboard, put it where you can get to it. Unlike air travel, you have tons of legroom. You can recline...sleep...eat...drink...plenty of bathrooms, people to talk to...watch movies, play cards...and watch the world go by.

 

I became sold on it after all the security issues with air travel. I like to drive, but, usually that means hitting the interstate...that boring, generic strip of pavement with only billboards and truck stops to look at.

 

Sure, if you've got to make time, take a plane. If you really want to spend 15 hours a day staring at the bumper sticker ahead of you, drive.

 

But, if you want to kick back, sip the drink of your choice, check out little towns along the way, take the scenic route, meet people, eat some great food...get out every now and then to stretch your legs, and have plenty of room to sleep...take the train.

[spokenward]

Elson has this subject covered.

 

originally posted by nat whilk II I wonder if imports from Mexico are simply being trucked north over the border and up I-35, and have no rail leg...at least from the daily disaster I35 is as it runs through the cities and corridors in Texas... Maybe we need a joint rail project with Mexico.

 

Well have you heard about the http://www.nascocorridor.com/ ?

 

This scheme has containers entering in Mexico (for the puposes of union busting) and traveling through the US with short convenient side trips for Distribution centers of WalMart and Target.

[spokenward]

On the subject of air rights. Here is a famous one that tourists walk over everyday. (well actually this is in the old park - but it couldn't have been built without the air rights)

 

 

from the Urban Land Institute website

 

Millennium Park Chicago, Illinois   The air rights over many intown railyards have been converted to a better land use. The development of Madison Square Garden above the Pennsylvania Railroad tracks in Manhattan is an early example. Federation Square in Melbourne, Australia, is a recent example and Millennium Park is another, but one with a distinguishing difference: It created the first green-roofed railyard in the world. Millennium Park has also introduced an innovative model for the private financing of a public project.   The Millennium Park site was the unfinished 24.5-acre (9.9 ha) northwest corner of the 320-acre (129 ha) Grant Park, a 1922 Beaux Arts design by Edward Bennett