Midi controller for a guitarist?

[franklawrence]

I'm interested in thoughts about a midi controller for playing virtual instruments. I'm a guitar player, not a keyboard player. Wondering whether to get a small keyboard controller, versus a midi guitar set up. Any thoughts, experiences, specific equipment suggestions would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

[Frantag]

I use a Godin Freeway SA with an Axon AX 50 guitar-midi converter. It's about the cleanest and fastest guitar-midi setup I've tried. Much faster than Roland guitar midi products. The only sampled instruments I have a difficult time emulating on the guitar controller are pianos. For those I use an m-audio keystation 61es(usually no more than two fingers at a time). I run both controllers at the same time so that I can use the sustain pedal on the keystation(the AX 50 doesn't have any inputs for pedals).

[Super 8]

The problem with a pitch to MIDI pickup is the issue of time lag. They have improved a lot, but it still has to count the cycles. This bugs some people, and others are fine with it.

I think the new Roland VG-99 does both pitch to MIDI as well as guitar modeling stuff.

 

The problem with a keyboard controller is that you're not a keyboard player.

[FocusPlayer]

I have the Roland set up . Gk-3a pick-up on my Variax Acoustic 700 - driving the GR-20 synth.

I love it. YES the RMC pick-up is slightly faster... I've played the Godin SA - and I'd love to have one.

Guitar Synth is a very cool thing. You can play a nice sax solo ( Breathy Sax on the GR is outstanding) or fade a neat string patch or synth pad up behind your guitar LIVE. An amazing way to thicken your sound if you're a solo or duo act.

If you'd like to hear one of my songs where I use the GR, I'll be happy to add a link.

------

But -I also have a small keyboard controler. These days, you can get a used controler or even a small Midi Keyboard pretty dang cheeply... snag one.

For recording, there will be times when the keyboard will come in handy and will expand your options.

[FocusPlayer]

OH, and if you were talking about virtual stuff on the PC for recording only, You'll sure spend alot more money getting your guitar to drive it than you will a little keybaord... err, 40 dollar midi controler, vs 400 bucks for a guitar set up ...

[philbo]

I have 2 midi guitars, both using the Roland set up. One is a Strat with the GK2a pickup, and one is a Godin LGX-SA with the pickup built in. It took me about 11 hours of careful work to set up the Strat to track well - - actually, about half as well, as the Godin.

 

Guitar set up is super critical with the GK pickups - - it needs to be at (not near) factory specs. At least that's been my experience. The GK pickup runs about $200, then you need another box to translate the 13 pin output to midi. I have a Roland GR-20, which is fine for live work. I wish I'd gotten the GR-33, which is a LOT less stupid (that is, much more versatile in ability to be programmed) than the GR-20.

 

All told, the various toys above ran about this much:

Godin $1800

GK2a + GR20: $700

 

However, you seem to be asking about a keyboard rather than a guitar synth rig. If you just want a controller (Midi out, but no sound out), the M-audio ones play pretty nice & are pretty reasonably priced. If you also want sound generator output, the price starts climbing...

[neuro-feed]

I own a Godin LGX-SA as well as a Strat equipped with a GK-3 PU. I'm using them with a Roland GR-33 guitar synth now, and I love it. I even slave soft synths in Reason through the GR-33 on occasion, and I've never been disappointed with the tracking time, which the Roland equipment is supposedly lacking in. The key is to get your PU set up properly with whatever equipment you intend to use with it. (The GR-33, for example, allows you to set up each string sensitivity as well as other parameters to improve tracking and feel). Depending on how deep you want to get into guitar synthesis and your budget, either setup could work for your needs. Most would agree that a piezo-equipped bridge hex PU saddles built into the guitars like the Godins or Brian Moore guitars (or adding an after market hex PU like RMC or Graphtec Ghost PUs) will provide the faster tracking than a GK PU, but in all honesty I was never dissatisfied with the GK3 tracking on my Strat evedn thoguh I'll admit that the Godin has quicker response. Also, the tracking and responsiveness of the Axon midi converters is also generally regarded as better than Roland's, at least when you need to slave outboard gear and/or soft synths, but Roland's on board sounds are superior and the internal sounds on a GR unit can still track fast enough, IMO. Again, it depends on what you want out of your setup and playing. I actually didn't have a problem with the tracking of soft synths like Reason through the midi out of my GR-33 and using the GK3 PU, though I normally don't play anything particularly fast or intricate either.

 

I'd say if you're getting into guitar synthesis for the first time and you're on a budget, simply start out with a GK PU and a GR-20 (both of which can be found relatively cheap second hand), which is a nice entry-level intro to guitar synthesis, IMO. That way you can explore midi guitar and grow from there if you feel you want to explore further.

[FocusPlayer]

BTW, I had a GK-2a built in my electric guitar, it worked pretty well too, but the 3a I now have on both my Variax and my electric is faster - more RMC like.... and It didn't take me very long to set up . 15 min on the Variax...and well, it's built in on the electric

I had the GR-33 first , sold it to my recording partner- the extra bells and whistles are GREAT , but more his style than mine... for me the 20 is enough.

 

Have fun !

[bp]

The AXON is super fast but the built in sounds are just so so.

[HCarlH]

 

I wish I'd gotten the GR-33, which is a LOT less stupid (that is, much more versatile in ability to be programmed) than the GR-20.

 

 

The GR-20 has way better and usable sounds than the GR-33. Both can be MIDI'ed to external tone generators, though, so that's less of an issue if you have other units to be driven by the synth. Yes, the GR-33 has way more control of the internal sounds, but it's not made by Roland anymore.

[Frantag]

 

The AXON is super fast but the built in sounds are just so so.

 

 

The Axon AX 50 doesn't have built in sounds. It was designed for soft synths. It ships with a version of Kontakt with some multi sampled instruments but I don't use that at all. I mostly use Dimension Pro, Poizone, Rapture and Z3ta.

[franklawrence]

All,

Thanks so much for your thoughts. I'm mainly looking for a way to play midi parts into my computer for recording, using virtual instruments and samplers for the sounds. Playing live with a guitar synth would just be a secondary benefit, as I'm not giging much these days. Since I have no keyboard chops, I'm wondering how workable a midi guitar controller would be and how much editing I would need to do on the resulting midi data. I also see that Melodyne does a pitch-to-midi conversion, and so am wondering about usign that to create midi parts. Anyone have any experience with that approach? Finally, it seems like I'll probably want to get at least a small keyboard controller, but find the number of them somewhat overwhelming. Anybody have specific suggestions for a little keyboard controller? I'm using a Macbook Pro, Mbox 2 pro, Pro Tools LE 7.3, etc.

Thanks again for your time.

[Frantag]

for my laptop I use a Remote 25SL from Novation. IT has a bit of a learning curve though. For ease of use I like the Axiom from m-audio.

[neuro-feed]

 

I use a Godin Freeway SA with an Axon AX 50 guitar-midi converter.

 

 

I've been curious about the Axon AX 50. How's it compare to the AX 100?

[Frantag]

 

I've been curious about the Axon AX 50. How's it compare to the AX 100?

 

 

Whole different animal. the AX 100 is a guitar-midi converter and synth module. Standard midi connections and pedal inputs. The AX 50 utilizes a USB connection and is designed to drive software synthesizers. Does have standard midi connections but no pedal inputs. I haven't used the standard midi connections because the USB is plenty fast., I wouldn't say it's optimal for live use unless your rig is computer based. One of the features that I like about both is the ability to assign different zones on the fretboard to different channels and patches. Bass on the 5th and 6th string, Rhodes on the 1st thru 4th? No problem. As far as speed is concerned I've had better results with the AX 50 compared to both the AX 100 and the Roland GR 20. The only place where latency is noticeable is on the first three frets of the sixth string. Everything else is clean and on time.

[neuro-feed]

Thanks for the info Frantag. I'm not the least bit interested in the on board tones the Axon AX100 has to offer anyway, so the AX 50 might be the ticket, and I'm leaning towards a software-based live setup anyway. As I mentioned, I'm currently using the GR-33 with my Godin and a Ground Control midi controller. I'm simply slaving the GR-33 via Midi In from my Boss GT Pro guitar processor, so when calling up a guitar patch on the Ground Control I automatically get my correspodnnig synth patches as well. I assume I'd be able to do this with the Axon 50 too if it were connected to my Apple Powerbook to control Reason patches instead? I am getting a little bored with the GR-33 patches and I have found better tones in Reason to replace them, so I may just start using a laptop setup. Would I still be able to do program control changes with the Axon AX 50 via Midi in from my GT Pro, controlling Reason sounds instead on my Mac Powerbook? Is the Axon AX 50 rack mountable? (though worse comes to worse I could always drop it in a rack drawer I imagine).

[philbo]

 

All, Thanks so much for your thoughts. I'm mainly looking for a way to play midi parts into my computer for recording, using virtual instruments and samplers for the sounds. Playing live with a guitar synth would just be a secondary benefit, as I'm not giging much these days. Since I have no keyboard chops, I'm wondering how workable a midi guitar controller would be and how much editing I would need to do on the resulting midi data. I also see that Melodyne does a pitch-to-midi conversion, and so am wondering about usign that to create midi parts. Anyone have any experience with that approach? Finally, it seems like I'll probably want to get at least a small keyboard controller, but find the number of them somewhat overwhelming. Anybody have specific suggestions for a little keyboard controller? I'm using a Macbook Pro, Mbox 2 pro, Pro Tools LE 7.3, etc. Thanks again for your time.

 

 

 

Celemony might not be very usable with a polyphonic audio source (i.e., 6 strings). Am not sure, but I'd think it'd be tough for software to determine both fundamental note plus harmonic notes of a chord plus discard the harmonic content of each of those notes to get the fundamental tone of each string.... People do it easily, but computers are stupider...

 

"The more drunk I stand here, the longer I get!"

[Frantag]

Thanks for the info Frantag. I'm not the least bit interested in the on board tones the Axon AX100 has to offer anyway, so the AX 50 might be the ticket, and I'm leaning towards a software-based live setup anyway. As I mentioned, I'm currently using the GR-33 with my Godin and a Ground Control midi controller. I'm simply slaving the GR-33 via Midi In from my Boss GT Pro guitar processor, so when calling up a guitar patch on the Ground Control I automatically get my correspodnnig synth patches as well. I assume I'd be able to do this with the Axon 50 too if it were connected to my Apple Powerbook to control Reason patches instead? I am getting a little bored with the GR-33 patches and I have found better tones in Reason to replace them, so I may just start using a laptop setup. Would I still be able to do program control changes with the Axon AX 50 via Midi in from my GT Pro, controlling Reason sounds instead on my Mac Powerbook? Is the Axon AX 50 rack mountable? (though worse comes to worse I could always drop it in a rack drawer I imagine).

You can make up to 99 patch changes from your guitar through the axon. There are really only a few things I wish were different about the AX 50. I'd like to have inputs for expression and sustain pedals. It would be cool if you make bank and patch changes more quickly. Currently you can only change patches from your guitar by filing through all of the patches one at a time. I also have found the instrument output to be pretty noisy so i don't use it. It's not rackmountable.

[FocusPlayer]

IF you go to this link :

http://www.imusicscene.com/michael_nunley/

and activate the player on the right, - play the 2nd song "Sorrow By Candle Light"

That's me - playing the GR-20 Guitar synth - for the synth-flute, keyboard, Bass, and most important - as a SAX in the break.

[Super 8]

How about one of these?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L6oqVZ14LM&mode=related&search=

[FocusPlayer]

I've looked at Ztar- but they run from 2 to 6 grand... and it's still a controler only, no voices.

 

http://www.starrlabs.com/

[Cry Logic]

Another alternative is to convert the guitar parts to midi

after they've been recorded using a pitch to midi converter.

So far...the best program I've found for doing this is Melodyne.

[franklawrence]

Ztars look cool but are out of my price range. How does Melodyne do converting work with single note guitar lines to midi?

[bgmsmg]

Check out my review on the Axon Ax-50 here:

 

http://magazine.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2007/Sep/Axon_AX_50USB_Guitar_to_MIDI_Controller.aspx

 

 

I been using the Axons since they first came out. I have also use the Roland Gi-20.

The Roland is easy to setup but the Axon is faster. The splits are a great feature.

 

Brian

www.guitarhelper.net

[philbo]

It'd be cool to make the pitch-to-midi hardware scalable, so you could buy a variable number of channels. Maybe have a piezo (or even optical) pickup with phantom powered electronics that squirts out both midi & audio.

 

Examples:

Put one on each horn of your brass section and turn them into a string section... (Yeah, I know the orchestration would be different...)

 

Put one on each string of a grand piano or harp.

 

Put one on your sisters chin, and use it to drive one of those midi-based singing programs... well, you get the idea.