How do you keep undesirable people out of your musical life?

[rasputin1963]

This is a question that simply HAD to be asked.

 

And anyone here who says they've never thought about it, or who thinks this question is inherently snobbish, is being less-than-truthful:

 

It's no secret that, in the music and music recording business, there are LOTS (more than our fair share, even) of wannabe's, hanger's-on, has-beens, weirdos, flakes, druggies, dealers, groupies, klutzes/oafs, thieves, gang-bangers, etc., etc.

 

Sometimes in dealing with the true talents, you have to reconcile yourself to dealing with the no-talents, druggies, thugs, overzealous "Yokos", and other types who are either physically destructive (they trash your studio or trash the fragile, expensive electronics in your studio) or emotionally destructive (cast a pall of bad feeling about your studio or working environments).

 

Basically: what steps do you take to keep riffraff out of your musical and professional life?

 

[Yes, my question--- bald-faced though it may be--- is sincere and serious.]

[Ernest Buckley]

Everyone has their own quirks so theres nothing you can do about that and thats what makes us all different and unique. However, you can deal with undesirable elements (drugs, alcohol) by screening your clientele before they come in. Invite them into your studio and feel them out.

 

I worked with a rap artist for his first album. He would come in mostly by himself and occassionally would bring another artist to "flow" over some tracks. The second album came and he told me he was going to have his entire ensemble come in, some 15 people plus a photograper. I had to draw the line so I tripled the hourly rate. That chased him away.

 

Unfortunately he has decided to record elsewhere. However, I like my studio the way it is and it was not worth the trouble!

[RockViolin]

I have a studio full of sequencers and drum machines for a reason.

 

It's a gut call in many ways. Make sure peeps know from the start how it's going to be and what will happen if its not. As soon as I get the feeling that someone is taking advantage of me, or is a loose cannon, they're out. No talks, no second chances. It's not worth it. Keep a really close eye on them when they're leaving. Escort them. Do have a plan for going about ousting someone, should the occassion arise. I have a large German Shepherd that only needs a look. And a friend close by that worked security for Skid Row that only needs a call. Don't leave anyone in your studio unsupervised. Nobody touches the gear but you, or with you. Keep a sharp eye on the things that can grow legs.

[Tedster]

I didn't really read Rasputin's question merely as "how do I keep a client's undesirable clingers out of my studio?" I read it as "how, as a musician, do you dissuade wannabes, clingers, etc. at arm's length (or further) in your life?"

 

This is a tougher question, as obviously, these people are drawn to anyone even with a semi-public (even on a local scale) life. Sometimes they're easy to spot, in which case being formally cordial (rather than "friendly") can help. But the tough ones are the ones who seem okay at first, and then want to worm their way into your inner circle like a parasite. Sometimes these people have actual talent...which makes it tougher.

 

I met a guy a few years ago...seemed like a cool guy. Heard him play guitar, the guy was amazing. He'd walk around town, stop by the house when I'd be sitting on my porch, play a few tunes.

 

Problem was, he was walking everywhere because he was jobless and homeless (which I didn't know at the time). Although he was a killer guitarist, it seemed all too soon that he was hanging around the house an awful lot, bumming money (when he could), smokes, food...like a {censored}ing stray cat. By the time I realized what was happening, it was difficult to remove him from the situation. Finally did...but it taught me a lesson.

[UstadKhanAli]

I'm a fairly good judge of character, so I don't get that very much at all in my studio. People are quite respectful. But that's probably partly luck as well. I don't know...or maybe I look too clean-cut. If I were looking for drugs or to bum money, I wouldn't hang out with me!!

[russrags]

Yea, I have a hard time being "less-than-truthful" about this as I try to be kind to everyone. I'm at a point in my career where I certainly "pick and choose" who I want to work with. But I couldn't tell someone straight out, that their music or personality sucks soooooooooooooo bad that I wouldn't even recomend them to another studio. I asked Bruce Swedien about this a couple years ago, and how did he deal with this ... his answer was simple and truthful ... "I'm too busy."

 

Russ

Nashville

[RockViolin]

I didn't really read Rasputin's question merely as "how do I keep a client's undesirable clingers out of my studio?" I read it as "how, as a musician, do you dissuade wannabes, clingers, etc. at arm's length (or further) in your life?" This is a tougher question, as obviously, these people are drawn to anyone even with a semi-public (even on a local scale) life. Sometimes they're easy to spot, in which case being formally cordial (rather than "friendly") can help. But the tough ones are the ones who seem okay at first, and then want to worm their way into your inner circle like a parasite. Sometimes these people have actual talent...which makes it tougher. I met a guy a few years ago...seemed like a cool guy. Heard him play guitar, the guy was amazing. He'd walk around town, stop by the house when I'd be sitting on my porch, play a few tunes. Problem was, he was walking everywhere because he was jobless and homeless (which I didn't know at the time). Although he was a killer guitarist, it seemed all too soon that he was hanging around the house an awful lot, bumming money (when he could), smokes, food...like a {censored}ing stray cat. By the time I realized what was happening, it was difficult to remove him from the situation. Finally did...but it taught me a lesson.

 

Yeah, I keyed on the studio aspect. Still going to go with "gut call", and add "experience".

 

I know the guy you speak of. Only he was a drummer. Give'em an inch and they're yer "buddy". Freakin leach. All of the sudden spare cash that was on the counter is missing, or a guitar cord, etc. But even at a higher level, remora/vulture, one maybe has to have had the experience to see it coming, and then the back to nip it in the bud. It gets tougher as you go up the chain. (As in great singer that's too much to deal with.) Happens all the time though. "We could make millions, but I don't like me when you are around. C' Ya."

[Super 8]

 

I met a guy a few years ago...seemed like a cool guy. Heard him play guitar, the guy was amazing. He'd walk around town, stop by the house when I'd be sitting on my porch, play a few tunes. Problem was, he was walking everywhere because he was jobless and homeless (which I didn't know at the time). Although he was a killer guitarist, it seemed all too soon that he was hanging around the house an awful lot, bumming money (when he could), smokes, food...like a {censored}ing stray cat. By the time I realized what was happening, it was difficult to remove him from the situation. Finally did...but it taught me a lesson.

 

 

Sounds like Jaco Pastorius. Did you used to live in Florida?

[goldear]

I would say try to avoid violence. If you put your dog on someone, and they recover, assume they may want to shoot you.

Valuble equipment and Alchohol is a crap shoot. If you love music and you get drunk enough, you are going to grab an instrument, even if you suck.

[blue2blue]

Assuming I'm in the class doing the excluding and not the other way around...

 

Back when I was growing up (you know, in my 20's and 30's), I learned the hard way to be careful who you chummed up with. I threw a lot of parties and there were usually people around... and one of the things I found out was that there are certain people who can't be trusted and they are not always readily apparent as such.

 

I developed pretty good radar -- but it was more geared to sussing out the a.h.'s and conmen and snakes -- not necessarily sussing out those with similar levels of discernment...

 

You can have perfectly wonderful friends -- but unless they're also a bit wary and especially if they're young and haven't sorted all that stuff out themselves, they can be a conduit of bad people... and it can be tough to deal with that at times. Friends of friends...

 

I developed something of a Teflon layer -- once I got the whiff that someone was not ethical or had distasteful social views (racist, etc), I developed the ability to keep up a convivial air (so as not to hurt my own friends' feelings -- or in case my radar was just over-sensitive) at the same time I gave these people no grip on me...

 

Users, conmen, and sociopaths typically use many of the same techniques (not far removed, at times, from an unctuous salesman) to ingratiate themselves, giving-to-get, trying to get into your life to see what trouble they can make, what they can get out of you.

 

I developed the ability to "shine 'em on" in the true 60s sense, just let them slide on by... let their vibes pass through me but not jiggle my own molecules... so to speak.

 

_______________________

 

 

Ted's story brought to mind the sad experience of one of my oldest buddies...

 

Back around the end of the 70s, me and my mates came into contact with a set of rocker dudes (a wild and wooly apartment where punkers and rockers mixed somewhat freely but also rather uneasily). One day we had a "punk rock brunch/jam session" and invited the whole apartment house, as was sort of policy for big parties -- since it was a big horseshoe and everyone was gonna be there, anyhow.

 

One of these guys could play guitar like a mofo in a style that would later become associated with EVH... he was really a hot, wild guitarist. But he was a consummate jerk. Incredibly vulgar. Not to mention a foul-mouthed racist.

 

 

Yet, somehow, a quarter century later, one of my old friends ran into this guy playing guitar (very good guitar) for change on a popular beachside promenade and befriended him, feeling sorry for him, and finally letting him stay in the garage under his apartment.

 

I ran into this foul-mouthed musician guy (with my friend) at a mutual friend's party. When I walked in he was playing a Sam Cooke tune -- and playing and singing very well -- and he went on to do some other R&B classics. His style was tasteful and his singing pretty soulful.

 

And then he opened his mouth and out came the same old vulgarity and contemptuous, hate-filled racism.

 

I thought to myself, OK, when you were a rocker dude, thinking you were gonna be the King of the Strip, the racist rocker dude thing made some sort of twisted, late 70s sense -- but now you're performing wonderful old songs by black artists and yet every time you open up your mouth it's N this and F'n N that... How can you play this music and talk like that?

 

My pal, who barely has a racist bone in his body, found some way to ignore all that, but I couldn't stand to be around him for 5 minutes.

 

My friend tried to get the guy hooked up with odd jobs or work and encouraged him to stay away from the drugs and alcohol that had consumed most of the guy's last couple decades. But if he had a guitar and a bottle, his ambition level was less than zero, and he remained a parasite hanging on my pal.

 

... Until my pal's landlord thought something went missing from his own garage and he realized there was someone staying at least part time in the other garage. He put his foot down and my pal, simultaneously relieved and agonized (he's a real soft touch) about where this guy would go, reluctantly put him out.

 

But the landlord, a municipal judge, saw the unauthorized garage tennant hanging around a couple times and the hammer finally came down... on my pal.

 

He'd been in the apartment (in a very nice, very upscale old neighborhood on bluffs above the beach) for nearly 25 years and his rent was insanely low... not much more than half market value (and, as you can imagine, in a semi-rico neighborhood in greater LA, that can be a chunk of change).

 

 

 

Anyhow... I don't know if my pal really learned this very hard lesson -- he's as old as I and while he's very smart he's also a very soft touch.

[Lee Knight]

 

I asked Bruce Swedien about this a couple years ago, and how did he deal with this ... his answer was simple and truthful ... "I'm too busy." Russ Nashville

 

 

 

Perfect. I have never suffered fools. Plain and simple. But... that doesn't mean I have to let them know that. Why bother? There are many people that I work with on creative projects that I don't wish to interact with beyond that scope. To a make an obvious issue about it is unfair to them too. So why bother?

 

I'm too busy. Not, "I don't dig your being. Away from me now!"

I can't make it. Not "I wouldn't be caught dead going there with you."

I'm tied up. Not "Get the f*&^ off my porch!"

Excuse me a second. Not "Get your stinky cig and whiskey breath out of my face slimebag."

 

 

I just don't interact with people I don't want to. And I always give them an out.

[RockViolin]

I would say try to avoid violence. If you put your dog on someone, and they recover, assume they may want to shoot you.

 

I agree. Actually. I've been sick all week and I'm kinda cranky.

Just seeing the dog and his attention is enough it seems. Deterrent. I've been robbed. Its a horrible feeling. I sleep much better now.

I've never had to get him on it, nor would I unless I thought it was EXTREMELY serious. I've seen no thugs, gangbangers, dealers as Ras mentioned, that I know of, in my studio. Just normal people that need demos and a couple bad experiences. Drummers for some reason. The other larger problem other than the one I mentioned was a drummer that seemed keen, good drummer, but after a period of time of never being available, clearly regarded my studio as storage. I kindly asked him to come and get his drums. I made the mistake of not watching his every move and he vandalized some speakers and a floorboard on his way out.

 

So call the cops if it gets ugly, when they get out they may want to shoot you.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I think that's pretty much everyone. The only musicians I've ever dealt with who didn't embody at least one of those traits were some of the most sterile, uninteresting, lifeless players I've ever heard.

 

 

I'd much rather deal with weirdos than some of the other traits. Far better than leaches, drug dealers, violent sorts, etc.

 

I find that people with really unique, interesting personalities often make really unique, interesting music.

[the stranger]

 

How do you keep undesirable people out of your musical life?

 

 

Sometime you eat the bar, sometimes the bar eats you. And you are what you eat. So don't lose your focus. Every glance at that passing drama just pulls it nearer. Just the thought is a manifestation of desire. The physical act of conveying it to us is a reinforcement. The results can go either way. Six one way, half a dozen the other. Why play the odds? Know what I mean?

[philbo]

 

Assuming I'm in the class doing the excluding and not the other way around... Back when I was growing up (you know, in my 20's and 30's), I learned the hard way to be careful who you chummed up with. I threw a lot of parties and there were usually people around... and one of the things I found out was that there are certain people who can't be trusted and they are not always readily apparent as such. I developed pretty good radar -- but it was more geared to sussing out the a.h.'s and conmen and snakes -- not necessarily sussing out those with similar levels of discernment... You can have perfectly wonderful friends -- but unless they're also a bit wary and especially if they're young and haven't sorted all that stuff out themselves, they can be a conduit of bad people... and it can be tough to deal with that at times. Friends of friends... I developed something of a Teflon layer -- once I got the whiff that someone was not ethical or had distasteful social views (racist, etc), I developed the ability to keep up a convivial air (so as not to hurt my own friends' feelings -- or in case my radar was just over-sensitive) at the same time I gave these people no grip on me ... Users, conmen, and sociopaths typically use many of the same techniques (not far removed, at times, from an unctuous salesman) to ingratiate themselves, giving-to-get, trying to get into your life to see what trouble they can make, what they can get out of you. I developed the ability to "shine 'em on" in the true 60s sense, just let them slide on by... let their vibes pass through me but not jiggle my own molecules... so to speak. _______________________ Ted's story brought to mind the sad experience of one of my oldest buddies... Back around the end of the 70s, me and my mates came into contact with a set of rocker dudes (a wild and wooly apartment where punkers and rockers mixed somewhat freely but also rather uneasily). One day we had a "punk rock brunch/jam session" and invited the whole apartment house, as was sort of policy for big parties -- since it was a big horseshoe and everyone was gonna be there, anyhow. One of these guys could play guitar like a mofo in a style that would later become associated with EVH... he was really a hot, wild guitarist. But he was a consummate jerk. Incredibly vulgar. Not to mention a foul-mouthed racist. Yet, somehow, a quarter century later, one of my old friends ran into this guy playing guitar (very good guitar) for change on a popular beachside promenade and befriended him, feeling sorry for him, and finally letting him stay in the garage under his apartment. I ran into this foul-mouthed musician guy (with my friend) at a mutual friend's party. When I walked in he was playing a Sam Cooke tune -- and playing and singing very well -- and he went on to do some other R&B classics. His style was tasteful and his singing pretty soulful. And then he opened his mouth and out came the same old vulgarity and contemptuous, hate-filled racism. I thought to myself, OK, when you were a rocker dude, thinking you were gonna be the King of the Strip, the racist rocker dude thing made some sort of twisted, late 70s sense -- but now you're performing wonderful old songs by black artists and yet every time you open up your mouth it's N this and F'n N that... How can you play this music and talk like that? My pal, who barely has a racist bone in his body, found some way to ignore all that, but I couldn't stand to be around him for 5 minutes. My friend tried to get the guy hooked up with odd jobs or work and encouraged him to stay away from the drugs and alcohol that had consumed most of the guy's last couple decades. But if he had a guitar and a bottle, his ambition level was less than zero, and he remained a parasite hanging on my pal. ... Until my pal's landlord thought something went missing from his own garage and he realized there was someone staying at least part time in the other garage. He put his foot down and my pal, simultaneously relieved and agonized (he's a real soft touch) about where this guy would go, reluctantly put him out. But the landlord, a municipal judge, saw the unauthorized garage tennant hanging around a couple times and the hammer finally came down... on my pal. He'd been in the apartment (in a very nice, very upscale old neighborhood on bluffs above the beach) for nearly 25 years and his rent was insanely low... not much more than half market value (and, as you can imagine, in a semi-rico neighborhood in greater LA, that can be a chunk of change). Anyhow... I don't know if my pal really learned this very hard lesson -- he's as old as I and while he's very smart he's also a very soft touch.

 

 

Wow!!! You knew Ted Nugent? Impressive.

[philbo]

I have to say, I found an amazing wonderful word that will do exactly what you want, every time. It goes like this:

 

"No"

[the stranger]

I'm your Ice Cream man, stop me when I'm passing by.

[the stranger]

Nader/Nugent '08

[audioicon]

I'm a fairly good judge of character, so I don't get that very much at all in my studio. People are quite respectful. But that's probably partly luck as well. I don't know...or maybe I look too clean-cut. If I were looking for drugs or to bum money, I wouldn't hang out with me!!

 

I feel the same way, Ken, Rock on!

 

Patrick/Icon

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Wow!!! You knew Ted Nugent? Impressive.

 

 

Outspoken and loud, sure. But I've never known him to be a foul-mouthed racist.

[UstadKhanAli]

How do you keep undesirable people out of your musical life?

 

I toss 'em out by the scruff of their necks.

[RockViolin]

Feign deafness.

[Ani]

Don't invite strangers into your studio immediately unless you have a commercial studio that accepts walk-ins off of the street. Arrange to meet potential clients at a public place to discuss musical ambitions, contracts, studio ethics, and etc. A place like Applebee's is always good for such meetings. If you are of a mind to do so, you can buy drinks or eats and write the expense off on taxes, but it isn't a necessity in many cases. In having a public setting initially, you can observe behavior and get an idea of how serious or prepared a client is. Many talk a big tale and will WASTE your time with ideas; nothing in the works, just dreams and unprepared wannabees. They want to spend time with people that are accomplished so that they can pick your brain or try to work "deals" with you so that they get something for nothing.

 

Same thing happens with photographers....

 

These people do not necessarily have to be druggies, vagrants, or even undesirables to waste your precious time. They can be upstanding and well established career professionals looking to get keep their money in their own pocket by swindling you out of your services. Sometimes the professionals can rip more of your time away from you than the obvious time busters.

 

I'm going to write this to you and then keep a copy for myself because it's an issue that I'm currently dealing with.

 

Establish rock solid fees for services broken down into minor details. Do not hesitate to establish different price lists for different types of genres or environments if your services are portable and you do on site productions. Go equipped with the appropriate price list whenever you have your initial consultation with potential client. List everything that costs your money, either by wasting your time (time = $$$) or by creating expenses you would not otherwise incur.

 

Initial consultation in a public setting of YOUR choice = free to client (depending on potential contract - you buy meal)

 

If they are thugs or appear to be someone that would make you nervous having in your studio; make sure that you present them with the higher pricing that would allow you extra money to hire security..... the higher prices would probably cause the people to seek elsewhere which would be your intent, but if they chose to do business with you anyway; you would have the funds to pay contract labor for back up. If they know your have security at your studio, they are less likely to attempt assault, on the spot theft, vandalism, or burglary later on. Let them know that there will be security on location.

 

Have a copy of your studio ethics for them to review and sign off on.

 

Let them know that if any of the ethics are violated, there will be a breech in contract and that you will have the right to terminate services at your own discretion if terms are breeched. All outstanding fees will be paid in full by the client and you will provide them copies of their unfinished works "AS IS" for them to complete their project elsewhere. Your Code of Ethics could prohibit such things as 1) vulgarities, 2) smoking in the studio, 3) additional visitors outside of the actual band, 4) pets, and etc. You could also place limits on the maximum number of persons allowed in the studio at any time... Jealous spouses, and etc...Also, write a clause in the COE or the actual contract itself relative to NO SHOWS or tardies.

 

If a second consultation is requested by the client without any contracts in place, SET A FEE....

 

Freebie consultations can add up to $$$ especially if it involves driving across the city to evaluate on-site locations or such or meet with additional people who "might" be interested. If you allow this practice without having contracts signed that guarantee payment, or without demanding compensation for "pre-contract" services; you could find yourself doing a whole lot of costly marketing without ever making a sale. Clients that are serious about contracting the professional services of a provider should be the decision maker of the company they are representing. You can "ask" them upfront, prior to the initial consultation, if they have the authority to contract services within their organization; if not, you can request that the meeting be postponed until a "buyer" of services from the company can be present. If your potential clients are individuals, or they are signed to a label; you should inquire as to what their budget is. They SHOULD know this and they should be able to give you a rough idea of what they are willing to spend even if they DON'T have an agenda. This will determine A LOT about the type people you put time into. Let your clients know that your services will require a "deposit" prior to the rendering of service. If people don't have some upfront cash to put forward... you're just begging for beggars, weasels, and undesirables.

 

 

 

There are a whole lot of "talkers" out there that don't have a clue as to what they want. They are leeches that will waste your time while they pick your brain for every tidbit of advice you are willing to part with. They will compliment you and tell you that they know this joe and that joe that can help do this and that.... SHAKE IT LOOSE if you're not making money. Unless, of course, you're in business to give your time away for free.

 

If you have talked to a "potential" client more than three times, or you have made arrangements to meet with them on several occasions that have fallen through due to "their" spur of the moments interruptions, drop them like a hot potato and just tell them that YOUR time is important too and that you have rearranged YOUR schedule to accommodate one too many times. Twice is too many.... they are taking you for granted. No matter how "attractive" the potential might seem.... you'll be at their beckoning and command if you ever DO score a contract with them. I'd rather not deal with folks like that myself. Some, however, fair pretty well by having the patience to put up with a lot of crap from the big wigs.

[MikeRivers]

 

Don't buy this plug-in:

 

 

http://www.sonicfinger.com/VSV.html

[UstadKhanAli]

Although cute, this plug-in likely spells trouble.