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Using powered computer speakers to replace Auratones?


billwolfer

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I'm about to incorporate a Mackie Big Knob into my home studio setup, allowing me to hook up the Adam A7s and Yamaha NS10Ms. Normally, I like to mix with three sets of speakers, and I want to avoid using a speaker switch on the amp running the NS10s to switch to some crappy Radio Shack speakers (Minimus 7 I think), that I've been using instead of Auratones for the last ten years or so.

 

So, it occured to me to get some cheapo computer speakers to give me the small speaker reference. Anyone done this? Any recommendations for active computer speakers that can simulate the Auratone sound? I've got a pair of Edirol MA-10As on my non-studio computer, but they sound too good for this purpose, if you know what I mean.

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I second the idea of Avantones. I power mine with an old cheap used hifi amp. What I like about them is that they sound like they are in the same ballpark as my Adam A7s, the middle seems pretty flat, they're just lacking in the high and low ends.

 

Computer speakers seem to be all over the place tone-wise and with their cheap plastic exteriors probably have frequency responses that are far from flat.

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I'm of two minds, here. On the one hand, aj has a real point -- on the other HT has maybe an even better point -- most computer speakers are not just limited in frequency range -- they're wildly uneven. Although, as I remember Auratones -- and it has literally been at least 18 or 19 years, I think -- they impressed me as having something of a comb-filter effect to their mid and lower/treble range, bespeaking a certain sort of irregularity.

 

But it's been a while. I was never really a fan though I came close to buying a pair once... can't remember what stopped me. Maybe it was the notion that my "good" speakers at the time didn't even cost that much. :D When I was actually working on other people's projects in 'real' studios -- my own little 4 track rig was something of a side-thought: a goofy little lap where I could do all the cool things that would not have been appropriate on someone else's straightahead music.

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I was never really a fan though I came close to buying a pair once... can't remember what stopped me.

 

 

sanity?

 

id still just get a cheap set of computer speakers.... but it wouldnt be to mix on, just to check on. with and without the sub. i wouldnt mix on horrortones either. or yamama ns10's for that matter.

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Granted, I haven't heard the Avontones but what convinced me to purchase them later this month is the fact that they are flat. I love the concept of a limited bandwidth speaker like the Auratone or the old Studer speaker trick... except this is a flat speaker. No crossover for accurate mids, lows cut off at 90 and the highs at 15k I think. Single cone to eliminate phase issues. And they take 200 watts for headroom galore.

 

But like I said, I haven't actually hear them yet.

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Not only to check AM mixes on. But TV as well. Who needs that? ;) I've got a nice audio system on my main TV but... I love watching TV in bed, and listening to the little speakers on the TV itself. That is a fact of life that probably won't change soon. At least in my house it won't. I suspect in other households as well.

 

MTV, Fuse, VH1... most folks are still "listening" to their music through the boob tube.

 

Alpha, I never thought of the Avantones being a "perfect" speaker. I never got the impression the original question had to do with the search for the perfect speaker. If I misread, my apologies.

 

The real reason I'm interested in the Avantones is the limited bandwidth yet flat response throughout their usable range. I can fully understand others not needing or desiring these traits.

 

Why limited bandwidth? I've always enjoyed the fresh perspective when switching to the old Auratones. No big wet bass, no air. Just... MIDRANGE. For better mix engineers than I, it may be a non-issue, for me, I tend to get distracted by the lows and highs.

 

I'm talking as an alternative to my mains.

 

By truncating the lows and highs, I'm looking foward to going back to the Auratone days but with flat response.

 

We'll see...

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Granted, I haven't heard the Avontones but what convinced me to purchase them later this month is the fact that they
are
flat. I love the concept of a limited bandwidth speaker like the Auratone or the old Studer speaker trick... except this is a flat speaker. No crossover for accurate mids, lows cut off at 90 and the highs at 15k I think. Single cone to eliminate phase issues. And they take 200 watts for headroom galore.


But like I said, I haven't actually hear them yet.

 

 

A modest proposal -- set up an EQ curve that rolls off under 120-150 Hz and above 8-10K and then use that with your full range monitors.

 

Of course, that doesn't afford an alternative to the inevitable imprecisions of a given pair of speakers --and, probably more importantly, doesn't offer the ability to use reference speakers in a different position in the room -- which is a technique I saw someone write about either on the web or perhaps in a magazine in the last year or so... They offered it as a sort of hedge against inevitable room problems... an alternative imperfect monitoring set up, as it were.

 

AlphaJerk mentioned a few other limited speakers, including the fabled white cone wonders, the NS10m. I have to say that my experience using my NS10m's as primaries was far from ideal. But when I put a pair of Even 20/20bas along side them (actually between them but let's not get fusssy), I found I had things moderately well covered. I didn't like the NS10m's as primaries (no bass, of course, and the mid-range issues they're famous for, as well) but when I side-lined them, I found that, for me, they worked quite well as "magnifying lens" speakers for zeroing in on upper mid issues, as well as doing ref checks.

 

I do think having at least one pair of some kind of reference is a good idea.

 

Back on the NS10m's... I've found that, with the right EQ, they can be quite enjoyable for everyday listening. I have an old Yamaha "Naturalsound" prosumer amp with both a "straight-wire" switch (takes all tone as well as stereo balance controls out of the circuit) and a neat little continuously variable loudness comp knob that let's me "dial in" comp from super subtle to lowrider smiley curve (all bass and treble, a la the whump and sizzle that comes out of the rides of the future deaf who like to make sure the rest of the world knows how great their taste in music is). With a moderate amount of compensation, the NS10m's sound like the bookshelf speakers I always dreamed I'd own back int he 60s (when I marveled that no records anywhere seemed to have consistent bass, one note booming out and the next all but disappearing in the mix... ahem). Anyhow... I've made peace with my NS10m's.

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I've seen ads for those Avantones, but man, they're expensive for what they are. If you've got any sort of wood working skills at all it would be so easy to make a pair. Either Parts-express or MCM sells these little 5" full range speakers. I've got four of em which I used in a prototype speaker cab I was building (built in hot spots firing out the side). Thing is, I A/B'd these drivers with my Auratones and my Hot Spots and they all sound super similar.

 

I'd say MDF, speaker terminals and those 5" drivers, you could knock out a pair for less than 50 smackers. Hey, I'll measure my Horrortones if you need dimensions.

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To clarify my original post, let me just say that I want some sort of small speaker to duplicate/emulate what people listening on crappy computer speakers, car stereos, boomboxes, cheezy little portable iPod docks would hear. real world, so to say. I don't want something that sounds great, I've got the Adams for that. What I want to avoid is getting another amp, or a speaker selection switch, therefore the idea of some small powered computer speakers. Most of them are horrendous, lots of them depend on subwoofers (do not want), but there must be some that will suit this purpose. Any thoughts?

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those small speakers were for checking your mix on AM radio - who worries about that these days?

 

 

I don't worry about AM radio, but there are plenty of bandwidth limited systems in common use today - iPod headphones, computer desktop speakers, TV sets, cheap car stereos.

 

I have a pair of the Avant Mixcubes, and they're very good for their intended purpose - seeing what your mix is going to sound like on a "bass challenged" playback system.

 

Here's a link to my reivew of them in EQ.

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BTW Bill, I just added a Mackie Big Knob to my studio last night. I have my modded, soffit mounted JBL 4412's, ADAM S3-A's and A7's and the Mixcubes all connected to it - four pairs of speakers.

 

Monitor A is the S3-A's, Monitor B is the A7's, Monitor C is the JBL's and the Mixcubes are hooked up to the Studio speaker outputs... I don't have any speakers in the tracking room, so I use that for the fourth set of speakers. :)

 

One nice thing I like about the Mackie is the inclusion of a input and output for a headphone distro system. I do have one of those, and it makes patching it into my existing seup fairly easy.

 

One thing I wasn't as wild about is the non-latching talkback button. I don't like to have to sit there and hold the talkback button every time someone in the room wants to say something to someone in the tracking room. OTOH, it does have a footswitch jack, and they recommend using a momentary switch so the "producer" can have remote control over the talkback system. Instead of a momentary switch, I just used a stompbox style SPST switch, so I can leave it latched and on if I want, or revert to the standard "push to talk" method if needed.

 

I was planning on waiting for the Presonus tabletop unit to ship, but my previous speaker selector died this week (Samson C Control) and I needed to replace it right away, so the Mackie got the nod because it was available immediately. So far, I'm pretty impressed. :cool:

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I've seen ads for those Avantones, but man, they're expensive for what they are. If you've got any sort of wood working skills at all it would be so easy to make a pair. Either Parts-express or MCM sells these little 5" full range speakers. I've got four of em which I used in a prototype speaker cab I was building (built in hot spots firing out the side). Thing is, I A/B'd these drivers with my Auratones and my Hot Spots and they all sound super similar.


I'd say MDF, speaker terminals and those 5" drivers, you could knock out a pair for less than 50 smackers. Hey, I'll measure my Horrortones if you need dimensions.

 

YMMV, but I didn't feel they were over-priced at all. :) Have you priced old Auratones on Ebay lately? And IMO, these are a bit better, and are new (as opposed to very old and "tired") speakers... while you might be able to build something for less, chances are they wouldn't be built as well (unless you're really a good woodworker) nor would they look as nice. For a couple hundred, the cost savings vs the time it would take me to try to build something similar doesn't make it worth it to try to go the DIY route with these. Again, YMMV. :)

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The real reason I'm interested in the Avantones is the limited bandwidth yet flat response throughout their usable range. I can fully understand others not needing or desiring these traits.

 

 

read above, a single driver covering all frequencies will NOT be flat. its an impossibility. what is similar to the doppler effect happens between the lower frequencies and the higher ones. there will be phase/modulation of the cone itself as it tried to cover such a broad band.

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similar to doppler... yeah, basically a single driver cant reproduce both lows and highs at the same time, it slurs one for the other. there isnt enough power to control the VC which cant move bast enough to push the cone which cant respond quickly enough in broadband applications, at least for any sort of accuracy... though that is why they usually have whizzers for dust caps. it at least lets HF content come though a little tighter even though the VC still has to deal solely with all information.

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so when they test this speaker in an anechoic chamber and claim its "flat" its either by freq sweep maybe? which the speaker only has to reproduce one cycle independently, OR pink/white noise which is static again limiting the driver to a known pattern.... but it still shouldnt be flat, that is a BIG word to use, because its an impossibility. all systems have pros/cons which the designer has to overcome but there is no perfect speaker.

 

honestly, i dont know why anyone would pay money for these. i have built these myself as mentioned above... even the worst woodworker can build two boxes out of MDF. i have several "full range" car speakers that came stock in a car that i ultimately removed for better ones in there.... they work great to do this type of crap listening enviroment. also work great with a 1/4" jack for a kick mic.

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And yet, when I listen to my Sony 7506 phones I hear a pretty nice representation of the whole spectrum. I don't hear the slurring you describe. Single driver. A dynamic mic has a single element very much like a single driver enclosure. A high quality dynamic like the RE-20 is flat. I'm not sure how the reversed role of the diaphram might change this but may.

 

This was one of my motivations for adding a single driver reference to my monitoring. I'll listen closely to what you describe when I get them up and running.

 

Thanks.

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your headphones are very small drivers... not 5" drivers. AND try out dual driver headphones and you will notice a difference.

 

a dynamic mic, or any mic isnt flat either. be careful with that word, as there is usually a tolerance of what? +/- 3db? there is no perfect microphone either. LDCs for example exhibit HF phase issues simply do to their size.

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Well, this has been an interesting discussion of small speaker monitoring, but I still don't have any recommendations for decent small powered computer speakers. JBL, Altec make tons of little consumer model speakers, maybe I'll give them a look.

 

My goal is not to have something that's necessarily flat, just a reference for general small speaker listening as it would be for someone with a crappy iPod dock, bad car stereo, etc. And, as I stated previously, I don't want to buy another amp for the Realistic Minimus 7s that I used to use for this purpose (these were quite popular in LA studios in the 80's, a lot of people put their auratones away). And I don't want to mess with a speaker switch so that the small speakers share the same amp as the NS10s. That's the whole point of the big knob, quick and easy switching of speakers and sources. Phil, and others, glad to hear you like the big knob. I was tempted to wait for the Presonus but in the the Mackie does what I need, and in a quality manner, it should be just fine.

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