Simplicity and complexity

[Magpel]

Simple is great...as long as it is also genius. If it ain't genius, then I prefer a little complexity, a little interest, a little intricacy, a little experimentaion, intrigue and abandon. But, if it's genius, give me simplicity.

[Jeff da Weasel]

Examples?

 

(this oughtta be good, heh heh)

[Magpel]

The again maybe it is not worth listening to or watching or reading anything unless it is genius--really pare down the milieu that way, with the unfortunate rider that most of us would probably be compelled/impelled to silence our muses, at least in public. As we age, I believe the critical muscle--taste and discrimination--becomes much more acute and, we hope, honest with itself. But the muse--the world-making muscle--tends to tighten up a bit.

 

Which means it is a really, really valid question to ask oneself--why produce, why create if the creation is not up to the standards of best stuff ever? I am note sure I have the answer to that, except that there is still hope that I have not reached the limits of what I am capable of...

[Magpel]

 

Examples? (this oughtta be good, heh heh)

 

 

got none

[Geoff Grace]

What about complexity used to convey a simple emotion?

 

Por ejemplo, Igor Stravinsky's Le Sacre du printemps was richly and deftly orchestrated, and its rhythms and harmonies were revolutionary for the time. It manages to be both complex and yet simultaneously, breathtakingly raw and primitive.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[UstadKhanAli]

Okay, simple with genius example that most people will know: the guitar solo by Neil Young in "Cinnamon Girl". So perfect for the song.

 

Complexity that is amazing: gamelan music from Indonesia. I'm partial to Javanese, although I love some Balinese as well.

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

got none

 

 

Wussssss!

[Lee Knight]

Simple yet genuis:

 

Bob Dylan's guitar strumming and harp in The Times They Are a'Changin'

 

Dazed and Confused main descending riff

 

George Jones's singing in He Stopped Loving Her Today

 

Paul Desmond's alto tone

[Instrospection]

I agree--great things can be done big, but they can also be done small. Though i'm a fan of rock and heavy and punk, experimental/ psychedelic and a variety of noisy music, one thing that I lament is that the tonal qualities and nuances of individual instruments often gets lost in the din. I'm a fan of "more being less"....in that sometimes less notes, less sounds become more. I'm a fan of the Phil Spector wall of sound approach, but I also like instruments just playing solo....like a really mellow, restrained lead guitar line or violin or something. In rock music, we've become too accustomed to how things are supposed to be done, and as a result, I think that we've generally sacrificed accessibility and commerciality for space and dynamic. I'm not sure if a song like "Stairway To Heaven" would take off in today's day and age....too expansive, too dynamic, too little going on.

[Jimbroni]

Simple Genius?

 

Johnny Cash

Willie Nelson

Any Miles Davis Trumpet Part

The Ramones

Bob Marley and The Wailers

Marvin Gaye's Vocal technique.

[Lee Knight]

David Lindley's El Rayo X or any Lindley solo from any era.

 

Ry Cooder

[Magpel]

 

David Lindley's El Rayo X

 

 

Love that stuff! The first two albums: El Rayo X and Win This Record

[Hard Truth]

The million dollar question is "how do you make something simple, yet brilliant?"

 

I was listening to some Elvis from the seventies this morning. Most of it was total crap, even though he's a fine singer and he used some of the best people in the business. I think the team was a victim of the Charlie Tuna Syndrome, which is doing something so you appear high class. They felt that they had to pile on the strings and background voices so that their listeners could feel comfortable knowing that they were listening to sophisticated adult music, not that primitive rock music for kids. (that Elvis was accused of making in the 1950s)

 

One of the best examples of brilliance in simplicity is the band Morphine. Have you heard them? They were just drums, one string bass, baritone sax and vocals with relatively simple lyrics. Yet, every time I listen to them I discover something new.

[slight-return]

He uslly used two strings and the sax would play bari and alto (he'd sometimes do the double horn thing)

 

One interesting thing about that - Rmember "treat her right" - they were essentially proto-morphine. They dropped extra instrumentation like the harmonica (and guitar) when they moved to morphine and, honestly, I pref them w/o the harp

[Jimbroni]

Morphine was certainly brilliant. I'm not sure they were simple though. Sure they were stripped down instrumentally, but the parts and the way it all came together was fairly complex or at least not straight forward in my view. They kinda don't fit in any normal musical cliche so its kinda hard to pin point exactly how they compare to the rest of the music world. Which really is its own form of brilliance, being able to not only break barriers, but pretty much ignore them and yet find a voice that people can appreciate.

[blue2blue]

 

Okay, simple with genius example that most people will know: the guitar solo by Neil Young in "Cinnamon Girl". So perfect for the song. Complexity that is amazing: gamelan music from Indonesia. I'm partial to Javanese, although I love some Balinese as well.

 

 

I often marvel at how well Neil's solos usually hold up.

 

His timing is so often brilliant.

[Magpel]

I was a big fan of Morphine. My band used to cover All Wrong. Cure For Pain is a classic of the 90s.

 

Stark, yes. Simple, not maybe quite so much.

[FireWithin]

then again, sometimes just writing a good song works. Lots of song with nothing special other than that....they are really good songs and fun to listen too.

[Lee Knight]

 

I was listening to some Elvis from the seventies this morning. Most of it was total crap, even though he's a fine singer and he used some of the best people in the business. I think the team was a victim of the Charlie Tuna Syndrome , which is doing something so you appear high class.

 

 

 

How interesting. I was checking out The Band's Last Waltz for the millionth time yesterday and Neil Diamond came on. I remember when I was young seeing Neil come out and rolling my eyes thinking, those guys have great taste except for glitz boy here. But you know I always dug the early Neil Diamond. The stuff that was simple and if not genius, let's say, top notch pop.

 

Then he started doing his rhinestone jumpsuit and shaded aviator glass and hairspray thing... and forgot about simplicity.

 

Then to hear him record the album a couple years back with Rick Rubin. You know the know where he's... simple and brilliant. Interesting.

[Lee Knight]

Love that stuff! The first two albums: El Rayo X and Win This Record

 

Yeah. David Lindley is simple and brilliant. I've seem him live many times. He can start a solo on his overdriven lap steel. He plays one note in quarter notes building in intensity. The overdrive gets more and more grungy and his vibrato gets more manic and he's still crescendoing on that one tonic note. 8 bars. More bars.... then he breaks into the most luscious melody. Not ripping out licks, but a simple melody that just tears your heart out.

 

Simple genius for sure, that guy.

[slight-return]

Interesting note (to me, that is, and isn't that really what counts) on how we may think a little differently (I don't mean "think differently" as disagree, I mean having different thoughts)

 

 

If it ain't genius , then I prefer a little complexity, a little interest, a little intricacy, a little experimentaion, intrigue and abandon.

 

 

With the exception of intricacy, the properties in the list - interest, experimentation, intrigue, abandon - suggest, to me (YMMV), more to "genius"* than to "complexity"

 

 

 

But, if it's genius , give me simplicity.

 

 

There's a descriptive in geek-speak (engineering and sciences) for that...elegance

 

 

*(esp in the root meaning of the word)

 

 

** when I say "more to genius than to complexity". I don't mean to imply that genious and complexity are in opposition. Just looking at them as different facets

 

[veracohr]

Dare I attempt to introduce some electronic music in this discussion without being ridiculed?

 

"Universal Nation" by Push (original version)

 

It's simple, yet seems to have strong emotional undercurrents that build up with sort of a momentous feeling.

[halljams]

A funny thing about simplicity, when done well, is that most everyone can appreciate it to a degree.

 

Complexity, not so much, takes a certain type.

Does that make them smarter or more confused?

 

Something very obvious to me about musicians and singers is that the way they perform music is very much a reflection of their personality.

A shy inward fearful person plays and sings that very way.

A brash outward obnoxious person tends to go that way in their musical performance.

Depending on ones experience in life, certain doors of emotion may be more accessible to them in their performance.

 

So, with this simplicity/complexity thing i think the answer lies in how one lives their life.

A person who in their head is quiet and peaceful will have the ability to lay down something geniusly simple more so than someone stressed out, who is a slave to everyone around them, hyped up on coffee or cocaine and basically

totally freaking out all the time.

That person will make a different kind of music.

Look at society and then listen to the radio, it pretty much corresponds.

 

So back to the first sentence, globally, complexity is the side track we take out of immaturity, simplicity is the gnawing goal.

[Ani]

I'd never heard of Morphine before, but have spent the last half hour to 45 minutes viewing some of their works. Pretty obscure materials, but cool nonetheless. The double sax is awesome... This video was bizarre and totally creative with the tri-face live-face puppet; it's incredible.

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[Magpel]

HA! Great Morphine video.

 

You know I speak not from experience, but by many accounts Mark Sandman was an entirely unpleasant fellow, but what a sonic "vision" he had.

 

Died, live on stage, in Rome, right?