Objectification

[the stranger]

Originally Posted by Beck: Get off the f**king porn sites (no pun intended) and start looking at women as people.

 

 

I don't think objectification automatically negates a person's ability to perceive somebodies humanity. We are objects in a physical reality. A person is an object, right?

 

I know this seems abstract and all, but one could surf porn and still respect the truth that a woman's personality is her most beautiful feature.

 

What's the difference between some woman doing porno and some chick engaging in garden variety myspace exhibitionism, or me pimping my {censored} on myspace?

 

A lot of these porn stars seem to really be enjoying what they do. (A friend told me.) And it seems the days of exploitation are gone. At the least reversed...who's really doing the exploiting now?

 

Wouldn't some of these porn stars be offended by your remarks? If they enjoy what they do and it's a major facet of their personality, and a lot of people are attracted to it, is that appreciating the person?

 

Perhaps you have the hang up.

 

Now here's 1200 bhp of twin supercharged 1974 Corvette, that will only cost ya $250,000, aka objectify this!:

 

[YOUTUBE]7sTVwrOjMn4[/YOUTUBE]

 

Your lucky I didn't hit you with some Salma pics.

[Lee Flier]

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

 

Anyhow, no, a person isn't an object. And this is why Madonna is such a horrible role model: she convinced a generation of women that exploitation is all right so long as the roles are reversed. It isn't. I want to live in a world where men and women aren't relating to each other by using sex as a weapon or a bargaining chip. Even worse if they actually enjoy it. Which by the way, they don't, except maybe a few who were most likely horribly abused.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Isn't that a reification fallacy or thing-ification? Of course, boobs have many names, but I never imagined that they could be of any beauty as separated entitties

[St. Mallarmé]

i have always a seperated pair in my attach

[Hard Truth]

I have no problem with products such as erotica, even porn, that celebrate the beauty of the human body and the fun of sex. I don't like when it is used to sell unrelated products, then it is trying to manipulate the viewer by associating the pleasure associated with the image with the product, when there is no real world association. It should be noted that sex is not the only feeling exploited for advertising, they also use love, nostaligia, fear etc.

 

I have more issues with Madonna than porn stars. A porn star tells the world "I like sex and I'm proud of my body and I'm happy to take your money, " which is generally the truth.

 

Madonna tells the world that you can make yourself powerful and artistically respected by exploiting your attractiveness, which generally does not work outside of show business.

[Billster]

 

Madonna tells the world that you can make yourself powerful and artistically respected by exploiting your attractiveness, which generally does not work outside of show business.

 

 

Oh? There's a lot of show business in the world outside of "show business". :poke:

[UstadKhanAli]

 

If they enjoy what they do and it's a major facet of their personality, and a lot of people are attracted to it, is that appreciating the person?

 

 

I don't believe that's usually the case, though.

 

I don't want to get sucked into the intricacies of the larger debate - whether porn is okay, how much of it is okay, whether it's objectification - but I just want to add that you might want to get various women's points of view on the subject. As they are half the population and might feel differently than you do, and might have some interesting things to say about how it's shaped many males' views of women, whether intentionally or not, it might be an interesting bunch of conversations for you to have.

[the stranger]

What the hell do porn stars have to do with Corvettes?

[philbo]

The real porn is violence, IMHO. It is much more offensive and destructive, again IMHO.

[Lee Flier]

 

I have more issues with Madonna than porn stars. A porn star tells the world "I like sex and I'm proud of my body and I'm happy to take your money, " which is generally the truth.

 

 

No, it really isn't the truth. That's part of the fantasy they're trying to sell you.

 

The vast majority of people who appear in porn films are seriously screwed up in the head. Just because you like sex a lot and admire the beauty of the human body doesn't mean that you therefore want to have sex with anybody, in front of everybody. And sex as depicted in most porn films has little to do with reality in any case.

 

Rest assured most of the women who appear in porn films were likely sexually abused as kids, have little or no sense of self worth, and many are drug addicts trying to support their habit. Convincing themselves that they love being sexually degraded is something they've had to do for survival since they were kids.

 

 

Madonna tells the world that you can make yourself powerful and artistically respected by exploiting your attractiveness, which generally does not work outside of show business.

 

 

How is porn NOT show business? It's the same thing - women exploiting their attractiveness (and/or men exploiting women's attractiveness) because they believe it's the only measure of their worth.

 

Sheesh, you guys are in some serious denial here. :poke:

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Rest assured most of the women who appear in porn films were likely sexually abused as kids, have little or no sense of self worth, and many are drug addicts trying to support their habit. Convincing themselves that they love being sexually degraded is something they've had to do for survival since they were kids.

 

 

Statistics overwhelmingly bear this out, as I re-learned when I was doing website work for Captive Daughters, a non-profit organization for stopping sexual trafficking, but one that also delved into other issues such as porn.

[Music Calgary]

 

What's the difference between some woman doing porno and some chick engaging in garden variety myspace exhibitionism

 

 

The difference is control. Women in porn are overwhelmingly not there due to a healthy career choice made as part of a healthy life -- these are dysfunctional girls who are used and manipulated. It's a very scummy industry in which the women never get out unscathed.

 

Showing your boobs on MySpace is a far cry from gangbanging a roomful of scumbags for $500 so your boyfriend can get high.

 

None of us can understand what it's really like. Seriously. And it's offensive when someone pretends to.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

Sheesh, you guys are in some serious denial here. :poke:

 

 

I think your analysis is in many cases correct. For the guys I recommend this new publication:

 

 

 

[Lee Knight]

I've started to write a reply several times here and discarded it. This is a tough one.

 

On the one hand: I like Stranger's twist of logic. And there ain't nothin' wrong with a little delving into the wild or even dark side of sex. More power to ya and who isn't guilty. And guilty's the wrong word...

 

And on the other hand: What everybody's saying about the realities of the porn/strip industry are spot on from my limited but real experience. Drugs? Yeah... a few. Suicidal? A bit.

 

So the fantasy of the chick in the lo grade internet video really digging it... and the reality are pretty far between. Like actually believing the guy you just bought your car from is a pretty nice guy and really likes you. He really does. Yeah, except worse. Because that girl really despises you. And she hasn't even met you. She despises the guy in the video, and all who are getting off.

 

Hey, it's a tough one. I've been among the viewers too. We are men with dicks and balls and convenient consciences.

[St. Mallarmé]

 

 

 

 

??????????

 

[Hard Truth]

There are a lot of lies about the porn industry spread by both extreme feminists and the right wing. In the mainstream (legal) industry in the USA there is no coercion, no use of minors and no sex trafficing of unwilling women. Producers must file 1099s and keep copies of the IDs of the performers available for FBI inspection. There is no shortage of willing performers, they don't have to go trolling for the lowest of the low.

 

Some of the people are messed up addicts, but many aren't. As with any business, if you don't show up to work on time, ready to work and looking presentable, you will not get much work. So there aren't many performers with extreme mental health or substance issues.

 

One mistake many people make on this issue is assuming that everyone has the same attititudes that they do. You might find it degrading to have sex with a stranger on camera, but not everyone does. Look at all the material people put on YouTube and MySpace for proof. Some people think its fun. You don't have to be abused, addicted or damaged to decide to be a sex worker when the alternative is flipping burgers.

 

The sex in porn videos is obviously fantasy material, no one claims otherwise. But there are many people who happily do many of the things shown in videos. Different strokes......

 

If you don't believe me, talk to some sex workers, and not just people who make a career out of attacking the industry. They'll tell you that the stigma, prejudice, and ignorant assumptions that people attach to sex workers harms them more that their employers usually do.

[Lee Flier]

 

The difference is control. Women in porn are overwhelmingly not there due to a healthy career choice made as part of a healthy life -- these are dysfunctional girls who are used and manipulated. It's a very scummy industry in which the women never get out unscathed. Showing your boobs on MySpace is a far cry from gangbanging a roomful of scumbags for $500 so your boyfriend can get high. None of us can understand what it's really like. Seriously. And it's offensive when someone pretends to.

 

 

What he said.

[Jeff da Weasel]

None of us can understand what it's really like. Seriously. And it's offensive when someone pretends to.

 

"None of us"? What if I'm secretly a porn star? Don't make assumptions!

[slight-return]

Jeff does bring up a couple of important points

 

If we go with "none of us can understand...and it's "offensive when someone pretends to" -- we (none of us, I suppose even those who may have had some exposure to the industry as we've specified "none") can't comment from a pro nor con perspective ("it's just like myspace" AND "women never get out unscathed" are both invalid and potentially offensive under that system)

 

Another area to keep in mind that pornography isn't necessarily fem-object oriented (I think C# is though ) - even Peter North was a gay porn crossover (Tom Byron has, likewise, done his share of homo work)

[Beck]

I don't think objectification automatically negates a person's ability to perceive somebodies humanity. We are objects in a physical reality. A person is an object, right? I know this seems abstract and all, but one could surf porn and still respect the truth that a woman's personality is her most beautiful feature. What's the difference between some woman doing porno and some chick engaging in garden variety myspace exhibitionism, or me pimping my {censored} on myspace? A lot of these porn stars seem to really be enjoying what they do. (A friend told me.) And it seems the days of exploitation are gone. At the least reversed...who's really doing the exploiting now? Wouldn't some of these porn stars be offended by your remarks? If they enjoy what they do and it's a major facet of their personality, and a lot of people are attracted to it, is that appreciating the person?

 

First of all, thanks for taking this topic out of my sister

[Music Calgary]

If we go with "none of us can understand...and it's "offensive when someone pretends to" -- we (none of us, I suppose even those who may have had some exposure to the industry as we've specified "none") can't comment from a pro nor con perspective ("it's just like myspace" AND "women never get out unscathed" are both invalid and potentially offensive under that system)

 

Always such pure horse{censored} anytime men attempt to speak for women... Same goes for anyone attempting to speak for the porn industry. Pure horse{censored}. There is nothing but coercion going on.

 

I do truly feel sorry for any man who watches porn and believes on any level whatsoever that is what women want. At all.

 

Men... We're so incredibly {censored}ing dense sometimes.

 

And now, back to your friendly neighborhood distortion...

[slight-return]

Always such pure horse{censored} anytime

 

 

Or when anyone tries to speak for everyone or anyone unilaterally negates everyone's voice or when anyone recuses then comments

 

now back to your friendly neighborhood total obliteration

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

There is nothing but coercion going on.

 

 

Okay, just a couple of actual points:

 

1. I agree that porn does tend to cause men -- especially certain men who would be susceptible to this anyway -- to objectify women. I do not think porn is a good thing for gender equality.

 

2. I live near the porn capitol of the world: the San Fernando Valley here in So. Cal. I know plenty of people who have worked in porn. Saying "There is nothing but coercion going on" is really a blanket stereotype, and is not correct. Many of these people consider themselves like any other filmmaker... actresses, actors, key grips, DPs, sound editors and so on. A porn shoot is usually a professional environment where they, like other filmmakers, are creating an illusion. They are all aware of that, and saying that "nothing but coercion" is happening shows a real lack of awareness and understanding of what's going on here.

 

Again, all that having been said, I am not a big supporter of porn, nor do I make any excuses for the negative effect porn has on society. But don't say that the people involved are automatically victims... you're painting with WAY too broad a brush.

[Lee Flier]

 

I do truly feel sorry for any man who watches porn and believes on any level whatsoever that is what women want. At all.

 

 

This is really the bottom line. No, I don't purport to speak for everybody. Yes, doubtless there are some women who genuinely enjoy doing porn, and yes, some environments where porn is made are "professional" and aren't exploitative in the usual sense, although again, somebody like Jeff's perception is going to be colored by the fact that he knows people in the Valley (which I do as well) who tend more toward being that way. And there are still other levels of exploitation going on even in those environments, many of which have been mentioned by Beck and Jeff.

 

But the bottom line is, the vast majority of women do not choose to do that job because they like it. And like any sales person, many will tell you they like it because that's what they want you to believe - it's their business, and as mentioned, many were abused and had to learn to "like it" for survival. You don't have to be screwed up in the head to want to be in adult films, but you'd be in a lot of denial if you didn't realize that a good many of these folks are screwed up in the head, and work in an industry that caters to and rewards that.

 

But many of you guys just want to forget about that because you want to watch a lot of porn, and you don't want to feel guilty about it (even though if your daughter or sister or wife appeared in a porn flick, it would probably bother you). You'd rather believe that all these women really like what they're doing. So all these rationalizations have formed, and anybody who pokes holes in those rationalizations can be dismissed as a repressed right winger or a femi-nazi.

 

I also think some people (men and women) see porn and exhibitionism as being somehow a badge of freedom from sexual repression. I see it as pretty much the opposite - I feel we have a long way to go before we are genuinely free of repression in our society... and porn as I see it is mostly getting in the way of progress, not helping.

[Jeff da Weasel]

Yes, doubtless there are some women who genuinely enjoy doing porn, and yes, some environments where porn is made are "professional" and aren't exploitative in the usual sense, although again, somebody like Jeff's perception is going to be colored by the fact that he knows people in the Valley (which I do as well) who tend more toward being that way. And there are still other levels of exploitation going on even in those environments, many of which have been mentioned by Beck and Jeff.

 

Yes, for sure. All I'm saying is, don't let the opposite end of the pendulum give you the idea that all porn is being made by actresses with guns held to their heads, or by drug addicts who need a fix. Coercion and drugs do play a part in porn, but the vast majority of it is made by professionals who do it willfully because the money is good.

 

To discuss this rationally, you need to separate this into two issues: the people who make porn and the people who view porn.

 

- You'd be much less turned on by porn if you saw it being made. It's actually a pretty clinical environment, where viewing angles and such are designed to the camera, not for the pleasure of the actors. Like nearly all movies, porn is an illusion. People are there working, and it's not necessarily very fun. Believing in that illusion is no more rational than believing that Spiderman is actually swinging from buildings. You need to be aware somewhere in your mind that what you're seeing isn't real.

 

- Viewers of porn tend to not understand the above. I think those with limited real-life sexual experience may be the worst in that regard... they think that the things that happen in porn are representative of typical real sexual experiences. In my opinion, the best sex is nothing like what is portrayed in porn, and happens between monogamous couples who share a great deal of trust. So what happens is that viewers of porn get a skewed view of what sexual experiences should be about, and are generally unhappy about their real experiences as a result.

 

A final point: nearly anything can be done in moderation without horrible results, while nearly anything can be done to excess. Unlike Lee, I don't see much harm in occasionally enjoying porn. However, sex addiction is a real thing, and there are people who cannot get off unless it's through viewing porn. Those people need help, and usually have other areas of their lives, be it gambling, drugs, or other vices, that they feel can't be controlled.

 

Again, my personal opinion is that blanket statements do not apply. Not all hip hop is bad, not all use of drugs leads to addiction, not every Republican is a warmonger, and not every person who views porn turns into a misogynist.