Someday I may become an American.

[audioicon]

First of all I shall not hold anything against the moderator if this post is some how inappropriate for this forum and becomes blocked or deleted.

 

Being a US Resident, I'm not allowed to vote. I pay taxes as all other American, I have given this country as much as it has given me.

 

I could care less about the American politics. Who wins who doesn't is none of my problems since I cannot be apart of it.

 

With this said, I'm just moved as to how people talk about immigrants, and colors, and ethnicity.

 

So are Arab Americans, less Americans?

 

Someday I may become an American, after years of paying taxes and not living on welfare, and volunteering. Will I be able to be apart of this great country without people questioning who I am?

 

It is just disturbing.

 

Well, I could play the guitar and record music or maybe stick my head in a speaker cone and pretend all of this doesn't exist.

But in the end I'm only human and it hurts to know that your next door neighbor may hate you because you went to a mosque or have a different ethnic background.

 

Here is a statement quoted from Colon Powell.

 

"We don't need to hear about who's a Muslim or who's not a Muslim. Those kinds of images going out on Al-Jazeera are killing us around the world.

 

And we have got to say to the world, it doesn't make any difference who you are or what you are, if you're an American, you're an American. And this business, for example, of the congressman from Minnesota who's going around saying, "Let's examine all congressmen to see who is pro-America or not pro-America" -- we have got to stop this kind of nonsense, pull ourselves together and remember that our great strength is in our unity and in our diversity."

 

AI

[Beck]

 

So are Arab Americans, less Americans?

 

 

No.

[blue2blue]

And, of course, in the big picture, we're most of us immigrants or the descendants of immigrants. Which miakes so many folks' attitude... interesting.

 

I was lucky because even though my great-great-grandfather came to the US in the early 1800's, his grandson, my father's father, had an accute sense of the value and interest of different cultures. He was raised in "Pennsylvania Dutch" country, with mostly German, Dutch, and Jewish neighbors from Germany and eastern Europe and he spoke a little of all three of those languages.

 

I suspect that when he went to university in Indiana, the culture was quite different and I suspect it made another impression on him. He married a Scottish-American girl from Indiana whose parents were immigrants (she had a bachelor's degree and he had a master's so they weren't exactly bumpkins) and when they moved to California he set about to learn Spanish because, as he told me 40 odd years later, all of us English speakers are immigrants in California (and then he'd start talking about the Spaniards and the missions and pretty soon we'd be breaking out the Monopoly board. )

 

Anyhow, he gave my dad and his brother and to me and and my cousins, a real sense of the values of other cultures. (He and my grandmother traveled through Europe, Mexico, and the Far East after they retired.)

 

He was still taking Spanish lessons until just a few years before he passed away. I kind of think he just wanted to have someone to speak Spanish with... the serving people at all the Mexican restaurants we'd go to all knew him and there's always be some chat.

 

Like I said, I was lucky.

 

But I've certainly seen examples of the opposite approach, too, that closed off, somewhat fearful, shut-out-anything-different thing. I've worked with more than a few of those folks -- and it is a fear thing. It's how they see the world -- everyone is out to get them, everyone wants a slice of their pie, everyone wants a free ride off them.

 

If you think it's bad to be those folks' neighbor or coworker -- just imagine how small and dark and fearful their own world probably is.

 

Everywhere they turn they see someone different -- and that, to them, means threatening.

 

They take the world -- their world, the world they see, and have in their heads and live in -- and they define it as a threat or as parasitic. They exclude any sort of attempt at understanding why other people are the way they are, simply assuming they are, in some fundamental way, bad... whether it's malevolent or conniving or threatening or simply lazy or weak...

 

What they don't seem to get is that by doing that they are simply defining larger and larger parts of their reality in these negative ways... and by doing so, they keep forcing themselves farther and farther into their own emotional hidey-hole until they're like some cave eel... cowering in a crevice, striking anything that comes near.

 

I have a pretty good understanding of that because I was becoming sort of the bitter, paranoid hippie version of that. (And, when most of the world is not a hippie -- you have a lot to loathe, distrust, and fear. )

[UstadKhanAli]

There are approximately three million Arab-Americans, although this is the subject of some debate, according to this website:

 

http://www.freep.com/legacy/jobspage/arabs/arab1.html

 

People always like someone else to blame, but all in all, we get along quite well in the U.S. I mean, look, I'm a Chinese-American with an Irish first name who was born in Germany and speaks English and some Spanish and has an Irish-American girlfriend.

 

Unless you're Native American, at some point, either you or someone in your family was an immigrant. That's what this country's all about. Even invites 'em all in on the Statue of Liberty (which was given to us by the French).

 

See? Don't you feel better now? We're all mutts, as Bill Murray said.

[audioicon]

What concerns me is that we are suppose to be in a "different time."

Lets look at the vast availability of technology, rich media and the ever popular internet.

 

I mean if I wanted to know the girl James Bond slept with when starred in the first Bond Movie or the brand of socks John Glen wore to space, I could find that information very easily.

 

I mean information is right out there.

 

I find the notion of "people being afraid" the best of all classic excuses for prejudice.

If I wanted to know weather my neighbor was Chinese, I would approach him/she and ask. Not to assumed because the guy is saying a prayer on a bus, eating Chinese food or holding the bible that means he/she is going to blow it up.

 

25 years ago, that "fear factor" would have made perfect since.

Look at the movies, the networks, look at all the diversity we have in our neighborhoods? If the fear factor is genuine today - then I'll say it's not fear but the total lack of progression and the abilities to become civilized, knowledgeable and acceptance of their own society.

 

AI

[UstadKhanAli]

Do you feel that people are more afraid of others than 25 years ago?

[audioicon]

 

Do you feel that people are more afraid of others than 25 years ago?

 

 

Absolutely no! But my point is this.

The information is right there!

It is so easy to know who anybody is today.

 

Besides, why it is so difficult to walk to somebody and talk to them?

 

I agreed people maybe afraid but in my opinion, it's not fear but rather a psychological complex that involves "an establishment of unilateral facts based on one own thinking."

 

It's also "psychosomatic."

 

AI

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Absolutely no! But my point is this. The information is right there! It is so easy to know who anybody is today.

 

 

But the MISinformation is right there too!

 

And really, don't most people tend to read things that support their view?

[UstadKhanAli]

Patrick, you might be interested in this LA Times article:

 

Black voters feeling a mix of 'anticipation, hope, pride -- and fear'

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-mood19-2008oct19,0,693525,full.story

 

Skepticism, born of centuries of experience, is shaping the mood of the black electorate. Some Barack Obama supporters worry that the candidate will be hurt, defeated by racism, or fraud.

By Richard Fausset, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

October 19, 2008

 

ATLANTA -- Tonya Jones doesn't want to imagine what it would feel like to have a black president in the White House.

 

"I want to feel that euphoria, but I can't," said Jones, an African American hairstylist who was hanging out in front of her shop here on a slow afternoon. "Because I don't want to put myself way up here" -- with this she raised her hand over her head -- "only to fall." She let her hand plunge downward like a falling elevator.

 

"Everybody's on edge, I'm telling you," she said.

 

Such are the fraught emotions of African Americans, whose up-from-slavery story could culminate Nov. 4 in the election of a black president. Polls show that black voters overwhelmingly support Barack Obama in the presidential race, in many cases for reasons that transcend policy: One popular T-shirt depicts Obama with the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. under the banner "A Dream Answered."

 

But many blacks are also steeling themselves for the heartbreak that will come if a breakthrough does not. Damascus Harris, a school administrator in Chicago, rattled off a litany of past indignities his people have suffered -- from the broken promises that followed slavery to Jim Crow-era voter suppression to racist redlining by banks. They explained, in part, why Harris won't be surprised if Obama loses this election.

 

"I'm not naive about what our history has been," he said.

 

That skepticism, born of centuries of experience, is shaping the mood of the black electorate on the eve of this historic election. Even with Obama surging in national polls, the excitement of his black supporters is in many cases tempered by an acute anxiety.

 

"I've seen lots of moods around rage and progress and all those things," said Andrea Y. Simpson, a political science professor at the University of Richmond who marched with King when she was a girl. "This is the strangest one I've experienced . . . of anticipation, hope, pride -- and fear."

 

Fear finds its most intense expression in the ongoing concerns for Obama's safety. Rosalind Johnson, a finance company worker from Camden, S.C., stated her deepest worry bluntly, as if it were a fact: "He will be assassinated," she said on a sunny weekday morning recently as she walked out of her local registrar's office.

 

There are other, less morbid concerns. Some voters fret over the shadowy workings of a system that they believe will prevent Obama from ascending to the highest office in the land. Sometimes this conversation hinges on the voting irregularities of the 2000 election. Sometimes the sentiment is more vague.

 

"It's going to be something," said Tony Gonzales, an Atlanta barber. "Because it's a black person, something's going to happen."

 

Shan Dennis, a worker at a Decatur, Ga., insurance company, said she isn't worried about a fix being in -- but she says it's something she hears about quite a bit.

 

"That's been a big [issue] in the African American community," she said. "A lot of them think someone is not going to let him win."

 

Other voters are dismayed by the ugly tone that has emerged in the last few months, as Obama's candidacy unearthed frank expressions of prejudice from white voters, and polls show some of them may be resistant to the idea of a black president: One AP-Yahoo News poll in September suggested that a third of white Democrats held negative views toward blacks.

 

The Rev. Kevin M. Turman, pastor of the Second Baptist Church of Detroit, has seen similar polls. He grows worried and frustrated when he thinks of the scenario they could trigger.

 

"My concern is that white Democrats -- who agree with Obama on every issue -- won't vote for him because he's black," Turman said.

 

Historically, Turman said, black voters have proved one of the most reliable constituencies for the Democratic Party. If whites don't show up to vote for a qualified black candidate, he would feel something like betrayal.

 

"I will have to reconsider my lifelong support of the Democratic Party," he said. "Perhaps it will be time for us to look at elections on more of a candidate-by-candidate basis, and not just vote the party ticket."

 

Obama's father was a black Kenyan; his mother was a white Kansan; and he was raised by white grandparents. The election, of course, is about many things, not just racial identity. And black voters have different opinions about whether the election should be viewed as a referendum on the state of American race relations.

 

The Rev. Joseph Lowery, a civil rights veteran and co-founder of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, thinks the matter is plain:

 

"What we boil down to is a choice between 'Will you vote for the good of the country?' or 'Will you vote your racial fears?' " said Lowery.

 

But Charles Johnson, a novelist and English professor at the University of Washington, said it may be difficult to draw hard and fast conclusions about race relations from the November vote.

 

"There will be black Americans who will be certain that if [Obama] loses it was on the basis of race," Johnson said. "Then again, there's going to be a percentage of people who, when the race issue is put to the side, didn't like his policy proposals. It could be a combination of those.

 

"The conclusion that we draw from this is going be varied," he added. "I think we just have to wait and see."

 

Given the strong emotions Obama has stoked, however, it may be difficult for some voters to see the nuances.

 

Kevin Rodgers, who works alongside Tonya Jones at Atlanta's First Class Barber Shop, spoke of a trip to Washington that he recently made with his young daughter. After visiting the Jefferson Memorial, he bought her a ruler with pictures of all 43 presidents.

 

"They were all white, and we discussed that," said Rodgers. "Now, with a win, there'd be a black face on that ruler. That says everything to me."

 

Rodgers predicted that an Obama victory might trigger a major change in the way black Americans view their country and their countrymen.

 

"The amount of heart it takes for white people to pick Barack -- I think that will help some black people look at this country with hope," he said. "It will be a real gesture -- a major gesture. I think it's a major blow to hatred."

 

However, he said, an Obama loss "validates a lot of the discontent" that black Americans harbor.

 

"It proves it, in a way," he said, referring to lingering prejudice. "It gives validity to it." Some black voters don't want to contemplate what a loss would feel like, much the way Tonya Jones does not want to contemplate a win. But Pennsylvania state Rep. Jewell Williams, a Democrat who represents one of the largest African American districts in the Keystone State, has given it some thought. He said he'd encourage blacks to make Nov. 5 a sick-out day.

 

"I would encourage every African American not to go to work," he said. "We will need to show how important we are again. Maybe America will pay more attention to us if we all stayed at home."

 

In the long term, an Obama loss could discourage future political participation among the black voters who have registered for the first time this year, said Wilbur C. Rich, a political scientist at Wellesley College in Massachusetts.

 

The loss of enthusiasm could extend beyond new voters. Harris, the Chicago school administrator, has voted in every presidential election he could. The 40-year-old likes to think of himself as a coolly dispassionate voter. But he said he cried when Obama claimed the Democratic nomination -- and expects the same kind of cathartic response if the candidate wins in November.

 

Imagining an Obama loss is another story. If that happens, Harris said, he will probably give up on the idea that voting makes a difference.

 

"This for me, politically, is the endgame," he said. "If McCain wins, I'm done. I will have conclusively decided that this is a purposeless exercise."

 

Michael Baisden, a popular radio host and Obama supporter, discounts such talk. "I think that's people hoping for the best," he said, "and preparing for the worst."

 

richard.fausset@latimes.com

[amplayer]

As far as I know, nobody from the McCain camp has ever called Obama a Muslim. What McCain has called Obama is a tax and spend liberal. With the most liberal voting record in the senate, it is clear Obama is just that.

The fact that Powell has made these lame excuses as a reason for supporting this extremely liberal candidate makes me lose my respect for Powell.

[the stranger]

Do you feel that people are more afraid of others than 25 years ago?

 

He said no, I think the answer may be yes. Tribal mentalities (the root of these things) will cling even harder to long held beliefs even in the face of opposition. In fact, opposition seems to fuel these fears to new heights.

 

I read an article years ago talking about the world shifting into two types of people, tribalists and progressives. Those that wish to progress into the future and those that wish to hold on to the life they know.

 

A good example would be Amish people. They would be the tribalists. The people outside of their communities are the progressives.

 

In bigger terms, you could reference the views of radical fundamentalist theology as tribal.

 

There are plenty of cultures and sub-cultures that oppose progress.

 

I even hold views critical of progress, but not so much that I don't still belong to the progressives.

 

Racial prejudice, nationalism, opposing ideologies are all forms of tribalism.

 

I think that we are actually seeing a system that is trying to draw parallels between tribalism and terrorism, which I do not agree with, even though I consider myself one of the progressives.

 

I think it's wrong to try and force others cultures to adapt or perish in the pursuit of progress.

 

So, that article I read so many years ago still resonates with me, as I see it all around.

 

Just some thoughts. Great thread!

[the stranger]

Being a US Resident, I'm not allowed to vote. I pay taxes as all other American, I have given this country as much as it has given me. I could care less about the American politics. Who wins who doesn't is none of my problems since I cannot be apart of it.

 

The first item is a load of crap. You have to pay taxes without proper representation. Taxation without representation. Any Americans want to chime in here?

 

These legal immigrants are getting shafted.

 

If you are a legal resident and pay taxes, you should get to vote. Citizenship, or not. Pay tax=vote.

 

The second item is not true. It is your problem if you pay taxes. Taxes fund all sorts of mayhem making us tax payers indirectly guilty.

 

I do see why you would be apathetic, since you are forced to by the fact you have no voice!

 

I'm truly sorry, as an American citizen, that are being forced to pay taxes and have no right to vote. This is a travesty, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad you brought it to everybody's attention.

[amplayer]

The first item is a load of crap. You have to pay taxes without proper representation. Taxation without representation. Any Americans want to chime in here? These legal immigrants are getting shafted.

 

I could not disagree with you more on this one. There is a clear process for people to become legal citizens of the USA if they want to. As already noted, unless you are a native American, all of us here are either immigrants or sons/daughters of immigrants.

If you want to have a say in how the country is run (through voting), it is completely reasonable to ask you to become a citizen.

 

However, I do agree that legal residents should care about it, because it could affect them.

 

For audiocon, I suggest you take the steps to become a citizen.

Although I'm mad at Powell for supporting Obama, I do agree with him that it is our diversity that makes us great.

[audioicon]

The first item is a load of crap. You have to pay taxes without proper representation. Taxation without representation. Any Americans want to chime in here? These legal immigrants are getting shafted. If you are a legal resident and pay taxes, you should get to vote. Citizenship, or not. Pay tax=vote. The second item is not true. It is your problem if you pay taxes. Taxes fund all sorts of mayhem making us tax payers indirectly guilty. I do see why you would be apathetic, since you are forced to by the fact you have no voice ! I'm truly sorry, as an American citizen, that are being forced to pay taxes and have no right to vote. This is a travesty, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad you brought it to everybody's attention.

 

The Facts: Note: I'm a Legal US Resident-Not a permanent Resident "By Law."

It depends upon your immigration status. If you are a naturalized U.S. citizen, you have the same voting privileges as a natural-born citizen and you may vote in any election as long as you meet the other qualifications, which generally include:

 

* Must be a United States citizen

* Must have lived in the state for a period of time (usually 30 days)

* Must be at least 18 years old on or before election day

* Must not have been convicted of a disqualifying felony (or have rights re

* Must not have been legally declared "mentally incompetent" by a court

 

If you are a permanent resident, you may not vote in elections limited to U.S. citizens, such as the presidential election. You may be able to vote in local and state elections that do not require U.S. citizenship. Be sure to check the requirements carefully before registering to vote as there are serious penalties for registering or voting in an election where you do not meet the citizenship requirements.

 

AI

[audioicon]

 

I could not disagree with you more on this one. There is a clear process for people to become legal citizens of the USA if they want to. As already noted, unless you are a native American, all of us here are either immigrants or sons/daughters of immigrants. If you want to have a say in how the country is run (through voting), it is completely reasonable to ask you to become a citizen. However, I do agree that legal residents should care about it, because it could affect them. For audiocon, I suggest you take the steps to become a citizen. Although I'm mad at Powell for supporting Obama, I do agree with him that it is our diversity that makes us great.

 

 

I'm not angry that I cannot vote.

It does affect me in every way as it affects Americans but in the end, I have no say "as a vote" in the process.

So I just work, pay taxes - so drug dealers and pimps can live on welfare.

But it's the system, my main concerns are the "trampling on diversity."

 

 

 

AI

[the stranger]

In response to amplayer:

 

I understand your viewpoint, but is it fair to pay taxes if they can't vote? I think not. Look at his obvious disenfranchisement with the system. Is that how we treat somebody who is making an equal contribution to society?

 

I'm reading your post again as I write this and I can see your point, but it is a poor commentary is your are a resident (which he stated), he isn't on a guest visa or some other deal, he is a resident and pays his share but doesn't get a say.

 

I think that goes against the principles on which this nation was founded.

 

But, I understand your point. Perhaps we should afford some level of representation to tax paying residents that have not received citizenship?

 

This just seems morally and ethically wrong.

[the stranger]

 

You may be able to vote in local and state elections that do not require U.S. citizenship. Be sure to check the requirements carefully before registering to vote as there are serious penalties for registering or voting in an election where you do not meet the citizenship requirements. AI

 

 

Interesting.

[blue2blue]

 

What McCain has called Obama is a tax and spend liberal. With the most liberal voting record in the senate, it is clear Obama is just that. The fact that Powell has made these lame excuses as a reason for supporting this extremely liberal candidate makes me lose my respect for Powell.

 

That's liberal the way some right wing journals measure it. Unless you see things the way a lot of extreme religious conservatives see things, you're "liberal."

 

 

I find it the depths of a rather disreputably opportunistic alliance that so many secular conservatives parrot the religious extremist's rhetoric when it serves their purposes -- which is most of the time, these days -- because so many free-thinking people who haven't swallowed the neocon double think fantasy have drawn away from the crazy quarter -- the alliance between the neocons and the religious right -- like jelly fish from an electric prod.

[the stranger]

So I just work, pay taxes - so drug dealers and pimps can live on welfare.

 

Bingo. And those fools get a vote.

 

I'm going to apologize for taking this thread way out in political-ville. Craig has allowed us relaxed freedoms lately and I don't want your thread closed because I managed to get it going political.

 

Sorry, we should return to the original subject.

 

Diversity.

[eeglug]

It took 3 years for my wife and I to become permanent residents. After 5 years of permanent residency, we are eligible to become citizens. That's 8+ years before we could become citizens and vote. Depending on where you're from, the length of time for permanent residency can be much longer than 3 years.

 

So yes, there is a path to becoming a voter. It just might take a while.

[audioicon]

Bingo. And those fools get a vote. I'm going to apologize for taking this thread way out in political-ville. Craig has allowed us relaxed freedoms lately and I don't want your thread closed because I managed to get it going political. Sorry, we should return to the original subject. Diversity.

 

Gees! When are you running for office? Maybe I can donate to your campaign! :D:D

 

Anyway, the drive of this thread was to expressed my frustration regarding how people can classified others based on ethnicity.

 

It's personal for me because some of these people I considered "Separatist" lives right in the State I live. And it bothers me.

 

This is just not politics because some of the people who holds these view are not necessarily politicians.

 

AI

[audioicon]

It took 3 years for my wife and I to become permanent residents. After 5 years of permanent residency, we are eligible to become citizens. That's 8+ years before we could become citizens and vote. Depending on where you're from, the length of time for permanent residency can be much longer than 3 years. So yes, there is a path to becoming a voter. It just might take a while.

 

I'm fully aware of the rules and the time.

I'm very much familiar with the American laws and way of life.

 

I come from Liberia the so-called "America's Step Child." :D

 

AI

[blue2blue]

 

I'm not angry that I cannot vote. It does affect me in every way as it affects Americans but in the end, I have no say "as a vote" in the process. So I just work, pay taxes - so drug dealers and pimps can live on welfare. But it's the system, my main concerns are the "trampling on diversity." AI

 

I'm sympathetic up to a point. But if you want to vote, it is a privilege of accorded to only some citizens. And, while the right to vote has been extended over time from a rather restricted subset of citizens to now include most law-abiding adult citizens, I think it's unlikely it will any time soon be extended to non-citizens, even law-abiding, tax-paying legal residents.

 

But you can have an influence in your community, your city, state, and the nation.

 

I have a friend who is in a somewhat similar situation to you. She moved to the US from Germany at the end of the 1980s. She and a partner opened a coffee house and she bought him out at a time when the shop was upside down (in debt and about to fail). Her shop is in a part of town that was looted during the riots. In the early 90s, there was gunfire everynight in earshot of the shop.

 

She got involved with a few other local business owners (its on a block that now has a row of small, theoretically hip used clothing and furniture shops) and was instrumental in forming a business association.

 

Though she wasn't a citizen, she became the point person with city hall. When the city was trying to "revitalize" the area by basically bulldozing the small, funky businesses out of business, she lobbied long and hard, instead, to get grants to fix up the businesses. People in other neighborhood business areas used their association as a model in other "iffy" parts of town.

 

Even as a renter, she became active in her neighborhood resident's association. She eventually bought a house a few blocks from her business. It's not in the greatest neighborhood, but she banded together with other young homeowners on the block to bring the neighborhood up and keep an eye on local trouble.

 

She is now one of the most looked-to young business owners in the city, a frequent spokesperson and advocate for small start up businesses. (And you may well have seen her coffee shop in a few TV commercials. The building used to be a funky old bedspread store. Now it's a bustling corner with a pretty, open almost aways busy sidewalk cafe, with a widely divergent client

[UstadKhanAli]

You did nail it in that voting is a privilege that can be taken away (say, if you're a prisoner). Somewhat like driving in that regard.

[blue2blue]

Ah... but I don't think they can revoke voting privileges if you're a hopeless drunk...

 

Still... voting drunk can be dangerous...