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  • #46
    Wow Ken. I don't think that people are stupid, and I have never said that. That you would accuse me of saying something I have never said makes wonder what your problem is.

    Again; Wow Ken. I have never said that either. Are you having a bad day? What a ignorant generalization.

    I have two children in their 20's, and a big part of my audience are the same age range. I do not believe, nor have I ever said that "young people suck." You are truly tripping now.


    I know you didn't say that, but that's the whole attitude I pick up on with you. I don't want to press this point because, quite frankly, I HOPE I'm wrong about you on this.

    But you do keep saying that the "average person" doesn't realize people have not realized that vocals now sound differently and that the industry pulls the wools over their eyes. I mean, that sounds like people are quite easy to bamboozle, doesn't it? I mean, it's a general theme of your posts that the "average person" doesn't care about sound quality, people listen to MP3s and don't care, can't discern between autotuned and non-autotuned stuff, people don't care whether someone can sing or not, and so forth. From the tone of your posts, I'd say that sounds like you feel the "average person" is stupid. Or they don't care. Or both. Hopefully neither. I don't know.

    I just get a little frustrated with posts saying that people don't care about music or don't know any better or are so easily led astray when all around me I see so many indications to the contrary. I work with high school kids, and how you paint them and how they often are seem to be very different things.

    And I'm having a great day, thanks for asking.
    Ken Lee on 500px / Ken's Photo Store / Ken Lee Photography Facebook Website / Blueberry Buddha Studios / Ajanta Palace Houseboat - Kashmir / Hotel Green View - Kashmir / Eleven Shadows website / Ken Lee Photography Blog / Akai 12-track tape transfers / MY NEW ALBUM! The Mercury Seven

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    • #47
      Yes, there is a whole generation of folks out there who think that autotune is the modern sound.


      I've had one person ask me to put autotune on a perfectly good vocal just to modernize the sound, and have had numerous discussions about it where people feel that it sounds modern. My girlfriend thinks that it sounds modern, even when it's a very mild effect. I mean, it's an aesthetic that a lot of people like, you know?
      Ken Lee on 500px / Ken's Photo Store / Ken Lee Photography Facebook Website / Blueberry Buddha Studios / Ajanta Palace Houseboat - Kashmir / Hotel Green View - Kashmir / Eleven Shadows website / Ken Lee Photography Blog / Akai 12-track tape transfers / MY NEW ALBUM! The Mercury Seven

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      • #48
        That kind of sounded like an apology so I will accept what you said.
        I ..... can't discern between autotuned and non-autotuned stuff, people don't care whether someone can sing or not, and so forth. From the tone of your posts, I'd say that sounds like you feel the "average person" is stupid. Or they don't care. Or both. Hopefully neither. I don't know.
        The truth is that most people cannot discern between autotuned and non-tuned stuff. Not because they are stupid, but because they don't understand what it is (except in blatant robotic mode).

        And how can you care about something that you don't even know - or understand - exists? I strongly dislike the trend of tuning everything and everyone, and I sincerely believe that it has damaged music and has seriously degraded the talent pool. Not because "people are stupid" but because the industry has conspired to fool and defraud them.
        "It's all good; except when it's Great."

        www.jotown.com

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        • #49
          70s: Wah-wah guitar
          80s: Gated snare
          90s: Scooped mids
          00s: Pitch correction

          In the future, pitch-corrected vocals will help historians date recordings as being from the late 2000s - early 2010s.
          _____________________________________________
          There are now 14 music videos posted on my YouTube channel, including four songs by Mark Longworth. Watch the music video playlist, subscribe, and spread the links! Check back often, because there's more to come...

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          • #50
            I've had one person ask me to put autotune on a perfectly good vocal just to modernize the sound, and have had numerous discussions about it where people feel that it sounds modern. My girlfriend thinks that it sounds modern, even when it's a very mild effect. I mean, it's an aesthetic that a lot of people like, you know?
            If tuning can be detected by the "average joe" it is not tricking the listener; it is then merely an effect. That 99 percent of what you hear is tuned - yet undetectable to the average listener - is fraudulent.

            Hearing someone sing in key and with good pitch has always been considered ''aestheticaly pleasing". That is why those who could sing in key and on pitch were admired for their talent. When someone sings off key and badly it is not ''aestheticaly pleasing" so those people are not considered good singers. Tuning someones voice who otherwise sings badly is making something bad ''aestheticaly pleasing". And that in my opinion is fraudulent.
            "It's all good; except when it's Great."

            www.jotown.com

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            • #51
              70s: Wah-wah guitar
              80s: Gated snare
              90s: Scooped mids
              00s: Pitch correction.
              Apples and Oranges, and I completely disagree. Wah-wah guitars, Gated snares, scooped mids, are effects. Autotune - except in blatant robotic mode - is not an effect; it is a mask whose sole purpose trick the listener into thinking that the person singing actually has talent. Effects dont' do that.
              "It's all good; except when it's Great."

              www.jotown.com

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              • #52

                The truth is that most people cannot discern between autotuned and non-tuned stuff.

                And how can you care about something that you don't even know - or understand - exists?


                ...you and I darn well know that discussions of this exist in every newspaper, magazine, blog, casual music forum, music magazine, etc. I just don't see how you can continue to say this. What I've posted here - a really tiny sampling of the tidal wave of articles casually mentioning autotune with the assumption that people already know what it is, flies completely in the face of what you are saying.
                Ken Lee on 500px / Ken's Photo Store / Ken Lee Photography Facebook Website / Blueberry Buddha Studios / Ajanta Palace Houseboat - Kashmir / Hotel Green View - Kashmir / Eleven Shadows website / Ken Lee Photography Blog / Akai 12-track tape transfers / MY NEW ALBUM! The Mercury Seven

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                • #53


                  .... is not an effect; it is a mask whose sole purpose trick the listener into thinking that the person singing actually has talent. Effects dont' do that.



                  not talent, but singing in corrected tuning

                  talent is completly something else, and most people would not recognize talent when it came their way in red underware

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                  • #54

                    90s: Scooped mids

                    Really?
                    The new blog: http://synonymmusic.blogspot.com/





                    Originally posted by Walters9515
                    yes he is SIG:

                    [...]where is where but where could where be because where is he to where ,where

                    I know u have a full blow studio where and haven't ever heard what a envelope follower is or have never used one in your life beside with a Quack which u are quacking like a rubber ducky in a tub

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                    • #55
                      That sums up my POV pretty well. I know how to tune vocals in a way where you could never tell which words I tuned and which ones I didn't. But that's not the style these days. It's an effect. People want it because they think it sounds modern and "better" to them. One man's classic is another's old-assed car. Guys like T-Pain and Rascal Flats have built hugely successful careers out of that sound. Many of the people here want them to stop using it on songs that they may hear because THEY don't like it. Especially on a classic song that has meaning to THEM.

                      Get over it. Like gated drums, it will be gone soon enough and then we'll all have to find something else to spend our "hatin" energy on.

                      Pop music is style.

                      Sometimes the dress makes the girl look better than she has the right to look. Sometimes she just looks ridiculous. She looks different to different people. Her friends see her one way. Dad sees her another, and her boyfriend sees something else completely. What I see around here are a bunch of old men who want to see things stay the same as when they first got bitten by the music bug. I hate to be the one to tell you, but that's not going to happen.

                      Steve

                      No, you're not paying close enough attention.

                      Some people think it ruins performances that would otherwise be great. Argue modern sound all you'd like. There is a point where tuning simply destroys all that it touches. The effect is born from correction. That was not the case with gated stares and wah pedals.

                      As an aesthetic it's fine. For the sake of simply being modern and nothing else, it's awful. Hearing divas tuned is not enjoyable to me, and it never has been. If that makes me curmudgeonly, so be it.
                      The new blog: http://synonymmusic.blogspot.com/





                      Originally posted by Walters9515
                      yes he is SIG:

                      [...]where is where but where could where be because where is he to where ,where

                      I know u have a full blow studio where and haven't ever heard what a envelope follower is or have never used one in your life beside with a Quack which u are quacking like a rubber ducky in a tub

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                      • #56
                        Okay, but I see evidence to the contrary...that many do in fact know what it is.

                        Again...mainstream media has already written articles on this, often without even bothering to define it because the assumption is that the AVERAGE READER ALREADY KNOWS ABOUT AUTO-TUNE.
                        Theoretically knowing what something is, and being able to discern when it is actually being used are vastly different things.

                        The average person does not realize that almost every vocal performance they hear on the radio is tuned. People like Kelly Clarkston (who doesn't even need it) and Rascall Flatts (who probably do need it). So yes; a lot of people are aware that autoune exists, but the vast majority of non musicians and non engineers couldn't pick it out on the radio unless it is the blatant robotic effect.

                        I just don't know how you can argue this. I talk to young people in their 20's every day about these things. Unless they are musicans, and unless they have actually heard a tuned vs an untuned performance,they cannot pick it out.

                        I was discussing this with a young lady - who is a singer - and she just could not accept that Martina McBride's recordings are heavily tuned. Now if you ever heard her sing live, or in the studio you would know that she consitently sings a semitone flat. Her tone is nice and the sound of her voice is nice (a lot nicer than Taylor Swifts) but they tune her front to bottom becuase they have to. Just as they tune just about everything in Nashville.

                        Most people just do not realize how pervasive pitch correction is in the modern commercial recording studio, and especially on projects that are major releases by major labels. It is just the way it is. And this has damaged the music industry as well as the talent pool that no longer has to learn how to sing, becuase the producer/engineer can just fix the pitch in the mix. I don't know how anyone can believe this is a good thing.
                        "It's all good; except when it's Great."

                        www.jotown.com

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                        • #57
                          If you listen to the end of 1956's "Walkin' After Midnight", you'll hear that Owen Bradley grafts on an extra "tail" onto Patsy's final "Me-e-e-e-e..."

                          She sings: "searchin' for me..."

                          ....and then, in an overdub, a much longer "e-e-e-e" tail is grafted onto the end of her first "me". To give the song a really smooth, dramatic ending.

                          It's done so silkily-smoothly, you won't hear it unless you're really looking for it. (Thenceforth, you'll never fail to notice it!)

                          Is that cheating? Is that as bad as Auto-Tune?

                          Or the way Bones Howe strings an endless, seamless "e-e-e-e" of Marilyn McCoo's voice on the tag of 1967's "Up, Up And Away".

                          Now THAT one is blatantly artificial; no-one could sustain a note THAT long without taking a breath.

                          Is that hokum? As reprehensible as Auto-Tune?
                          Every paint-stroke takes you farther and farther away from your initial concept. And you have to be thankful for that. Wayne Thiebaud


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                          • #58
                            Effects dont' do that.


                            Then you ain't using them right!
                            Music, thoughts, stuff, and... I guess that's all

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                            • #59
                              So yes; a lot of people are aware that autoune exists, but the vast majority of non musicians and non engineers couldn't pick it out on the radio unless it is the blatant robotic effect.

                              I just don't know how you can argue this.



                              We're gonna have to agree to disagree then. Clearly, I read about and meet a more discerning public than you do.
                              Ken Lee on 500px / Ken's Photo Store / Ken Lee Photography Facebook Website / Blueberry Buddha Studios / Ajanta Palace Houseboat - Kashmir / Hotel Green View - Kashmir / Eleven Shadows website / Ken Lee Photography Blog / Akai 12-track tape transfers / MY NEW ALBUM! The Mercury Seven

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                              • #60
                                This.
                                They should have just written a totally new song for the cause.

                                Next thing ya know, all the metal dudes will go re-record "We Are Stars" for Haiti
                                ______________________________________________

                                "Your own limitations render you incapable of realizing that not everyone is as limited as yourself."

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