Need Appropriate Hardware Advice

[~flipper]

Hi - 1st, this is an amazing place! My guitar is just sitting there for the last few hours while I've been in here reading.

 

I left the music world for 16-17 years and am back. I play guitar, write things, and have worked as a pro, what seems like a lifetime ago. I need some advice. Things have changed since I was away: My last home recording setup was a little Trident console (tubes, heheh), a pair of Scully 1" machines (one 8-, one 2-trk), a SMPTE timecode generator, other hardware, and a Mac SE running Vision. (a zero-point something version). The "semi" old days.

 

Now, I'm on a MacBook Pro, running Logic 9 Pro, and have a low-end MIDI controller, an Apogee Gio, one guitar (LP Jr, robot) and my fifth Mesa Boogie Mark IIB (60-watt combo, effects out/return, slave out, pre-amp outs). The Boogie's 29 years old and sounds better than brand new (not possible? my ears disagree, crazy as it probably sounds).

 

Okay, so, now what? I watched videos for Logic (it looks really cool, and all made sense to me), and found myself thinking "mixing/editing, etc, with a trackball might be okay", but I grew up on consoles, and because i won't be doing live drums and stuff, I'm mainly interested in a very Logic/Mac-friendly control surface that isn't loaded with (for me) "unnecessary" pre-amps and stuff.

 

My Gio has the "tape" transport part of Logic covered, and I'm adding a Duet and a pair of mics. I have loads of virtual instruments and samples. I did a lot of freelance work over the years and took software, laptops and all sorts of things as 'barter.' But I like automation on the faders, and would much rather have meters than A/D/A pots. I don't need more direct ins.

 

I guess the perfect thing would be a small console that is known for great, airtight, smooth faders, killer track assignment architecture, and "useless" (i.e. 'crappy') XLR ins and pre-amps. [i'm not exactly optimistic on my chances here]

 

Any suggestions will be seriously considered and appreciated. I'm in absolutely no hurry (I'm thinking early/mid-Winter to acquire), so I can look at used things, wait for new stuff to influence guys to sell their gear to "stay on the tip", etc.

 

One last question, (and i apologize for the lengthy text here): "Lightpipe, or Firewire?" [i am loaded with Firewire 800 drives, fine with FW400, and just not too thrilled with USB].

 

thanks a million!

[Anderton]

Check out this one: The MC Mix Controller, introduced by Euphonix but now made by Avid. It's pretty much Mac-only, and optimized specifically for Pro Tools and Logic. Don't know if Logic support will wither now that Avid's involved, but I suspect they want to sell units and will continue to support programs other than Pro Tools.

[Ernest Buckley]

. thanks a million!

 

First off, welcome to HC. I`m a bit confused...

 

Do you want a controller or a mixer?

[~flipper]

 

Check out this one: The MC Mix Controller , introduced by Euphonix but now made by Avid.

 

 

Thank you Mr. Anderton. I can't believe that something like this hadn't occurred to me, since I used either that same 'controller', or one very similar, in a video editing suite. It was an Avid-oriented piece that was being used at the time (along with a really amazing 'jog' wheel) with a large Final Cut Studio setup.

 

One of the 'real' engineers on that gig had mentioned something about it being capable of driving Photoshop (and a bunch of other things), too. My guess is that Avid won't get "petty" the way certain Cupertino-based guys 'might', and they'll keep selling gear into the so-called "competition's" pro workflows.

 

And it runs on Ethernet. That's heavy! I will look at it very seriously, and I've already started saving my coins up.

 

Again: Thanks to both of you, for taking time to give me some advice here.

[Anderton]

For a more detailed look, check out the pro review of the Artist series on this site. To be honest, it kind of petered out when the Windows support never really materialized, and then Euphonix was bought by Avid...anyway, I think you'll find what's there to be helpful.

 

And..........welcome to the forum! Questions about gear are always welcome.

[MikeRivers]

 

"missing links" in todays DAWs. I'm an old guy, and come from when you'd have a mixing desk, and tape machines, and a hardware device on a 'snake' (cable) that acted as the remote tape transport. In my case there was a time code box striping "time" on one of the tape tracks and into a computer. The "desk" was just a big router of signal. To my way of thinking, that isn't terribly far from what is, today, rather easily attainable in the digital domain.

 

I'm an old guy too, and I still use the same mixer I've had for more than 20 years. But the DAW has gone through several evolutions and devolutions over the past 20 years. It's only fairly recently that manufacturers are finally getting the idea that people need audio inputs and outputs and controls, just like they used to have with mixers, but integrated with the computer that takes on the functions of recording (storing audio) and mixing (summing and processing the stored audio), as well as providing the necessary monitoring signal paths.

 

The thing is that putting everything that you really need into a single box seems to be coming only in fairly large (usually more than 8 "channel") packages. The GIO has transport controls, but no mixing controls, has inputs for guitars but not microphones, and not much in the way of monitoring. The MC Mix is a set of knobs and sliders that can be assigned to control functions in your software, but it has no audio signal path. One of the better integrated products I've seen is the Allen & Heath ZED-R16 which provides mixing, monitoring, and DAW control, but it's a 16-channel mixer, doesn't have moving faders (when playing back a DAW mix, they don't move to correspond to the DAW mixer's virtual faders), costs, about $2,000, and doesn't have DI inputs for instruments. Steinberg had a pretty complete mixer/controller for a while but I don't see it on their current web site - probably too expensive for some and too small for others.

 

So, bearing in mind that I'm already a bit confused, at least as far as proper naming conventions go, I figured these Mackies, Alesis, Tascam "mixers" that handled both audio and MIDI signal, and were connected to a computer that was the "tape machine" AND the primary location of all virtual "tracks" and "instruments" was called ... what? So I decided to call it a "controller/mixer."

 

Hah! Don't you wish! I've never had my hands on an Alesis Master Control but that looks like a pretty complete package with moving faders, knobs, and buttons for DAW control, a couple of mic inputs, several line inputs, and ADAT optical digital I/O (mostly an expansion capability) and enough outputs for decent control over monitoring. No instrument inputs, but it's under $1000.

 

The Mackie i series mixers combine analog mixing and computer I/O but offer no hardware controls for the DAW (the knobs only control the analog signal path).

 

Bottom line is that nobody makes exactly what any body wants. Either you'll find more than you need, or less than you need, in any single box. What you'll probably end up doing is combining two or more devices to get all the functions you want.

 

You're going about it in the right way - studying what's available, asking questions about specific devices that look interesting to learn what's missing, and keeping your mind open. All you need is money.

[Ernest Buckley]

All you need is money.

 

I thought it was love.

 

[techristian]

Welcome to the digital world flipper !

 

One very important thing with digital recording. 0 VU means ZERO. You can't record any hotter or you will have horrible distortion. With analog tape the distortion is a bit softer.

 

Dan

[MikeRivers]

 

One very important thing with digital recording. 0 VU means ZERO.

 

No, 0 dBFS means MAXIMUM LEVEL. It's not "do not record any higher than this" it means YOU CAN'T record any higher than this.

 

0 VU means nothing unless you know what it means on the particular meter that you're looking at, and most meters today aren't VU meters anyway. When using an analog console (or something with analog metering) to feed an A/D converter, you need to know what the meter is telling you, and what that means to the converter input. Not all meters nor all converters are calibrated alike since there's only sort of a standard for the former and no standard for the latter.

 

You can't record any hotter or you will have horrible distortion. With analog tape the distortion is a bit softer.

 

That part is correct, with the qualification that an occasional brief (for a couple of samples) of digital overload is usually not noticeable. But you can't push the level higher to get a more vintage sound. That's for sure.

 

I'm sure this is more than ~flipper wants to know right now, but it's definitely something about which he should be aware.

[Beck]

My last home recording setup was a little Trident console (tubes, heheh), a pair of Scully 1" machines (one 8-, one 2-trk), a SMPTE timecode generator, other hardware...

 

This!

 

Go back and find them back or something similar. Things have changed, but not necessarily for the better. If I had nothing right now, knowing what I know now, the firsts things I would get are analog multitrack, analog half-track and a decent analog console. Then go from there.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, what Beck said.

 

You were smart to come here for advice, though. You wouldn't want to display your hardware inappropriately.

[~flipper]

Thanks to everyone for their insights and advice. I found Craig's review of the MC Mix to be really thorough. The "money-saving" situation, and my feeling that the MC Control would be great to have, in addition to the Mixer, puts acquisition in Spring. Lots of time to do what I'm already doing. (which is playing the guitar like a madman, digging up piano/sight-reading literature, and familiarizing myself with Logic 9).

 

The VU meters, yeah, I run my GIO at about -3dB, or so, on the input ... no probs.

 

"Going back" to my old, analog setup is, unfortunately, not possible. Long story on that; maybe I'll flesh out my profile for the background/bio stuff at some point here.

 

And, to "Lee Flier", that guitar in your pic really reminds me of my old '55 Gold top (Except mine had dots, not the wide inlays, of course). The gold top, alas, is gone (along with 20+ of its 'brothers and sisters.'). And I'm not religious, but a Church of Keith Richards has a nice ring to it, indeed.

 

So, there we are. I have a sort of technical issue/question, that might be better served in a separate thread (please let me know on that). The thing is: My old Mesa Boogie (Mark IIB) has an effects send/return (with an additional main stage volume control, added by Mesa as a "catch-up" suggested 'mod.').

 

When not in use it's defaulted as if it were connected, and the 'send' can be used to output a post-pre-amp signal to anything, without interrupting the signal path as far as the combo speaker cabs are concerned. The Line6 Modulation modeler works really well in that 'loop', but it can also be used to send to tape. Question is, would that 'send' be way too hot as an input on the GIO? And if so, could it be routed (safely), instead, through an input on an Apogee Duet?

 

I'm asking about the Duet because my understanding is that the mic inputs on the Duet have switchable phantom power, AND, boost/cut for the incoming signal. Is that accurate?

 

I'm using Guitar Rig4, and occasionally, MainStage, on a day-to-day (or night) basis, but would rather run the Boogie, and just use a few software effects, as opposed to 'modeled' amp/cabinet setups. Also would like to send guitar into Logic on stereo inputs (to allow for real separation for digitally panned, and other wet/dry mixes, etc.

 

Any takers on that question? Thanks a ton.

[John Sayers]

One of my clients has The MC control and 2 x the MC mix