Members nat whilk II Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 Can someone explain France to me? Proposed retirement age goes from 60 (!!) to 62. Well, I can see a lot of people's plans scuttled by such a move - it's not a trivial thing to do, clearly. But millions in the streets?...riots? Please, no rants, insults, etc. - I just want to respectfully understand, from the protestor's point of view, what the big deal is.... nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mark L Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 C'est la vie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lukenskywalker Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 C'est la vie Wow, thanks Sir Nads! Thank you for that inciteful, erudite, response, to a rhetorical question from a European point of view.. Are you saying you understand the pain and pathos that your French 'nabes are now going through ? Or are you saying rather wryly...{censored} 'em, those Gauls...they make love with their faces. Nothing wrong with that I must admit:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mark L Posted October 23, 2010 Members Share Posted October 23, 2010 I'm saying that no one understands the French but the French That is all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 24, 2010 Moderators Share Posted October 24, 2010 I'm saying that no one understands the French but the French That is all.... The French are practically the inventors of liberty. Case in point, they chopped off the heads of their royals, whereas you guys are still pampering and worshipping their inbred butts. Russians did a fine job on theirs, also. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nice keetee Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Bastille Day 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Health care system so bad they don't live past 63 perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members temnov Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 French are socialists, don't you know??? Socialists want getting more doing less. For everybody. You should obey. OOps, sorry it was USSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 maybe if more Americans stood up and complained/actually did something we wouldn't be in this state we are in. but no, better to give up liberty to protect us from box cutting boogie men that don't exist. pass the Bisphenol_A, its good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 First of all...by all surveys, the French are among the most satisfied of industrial nations with their health care. Second, the French made the tradeoff some time ago regarding taxes and government services. They don't want something for nothing; they generally understand that the price they pay for services - museums, restoration of historical monuments, health care, education, social safety net, etc. - is the price they pay through taxes. It's said that Americans live to work, and the French work to live. While a generalization, there's some truth to that. When I did a seminar tour in Europe a few years back, the French were always the loosest in terms of scheduling and such, but in some ways, the most attentive. However, I think the current issue goes much deeper than it looks on the surface. The French way of life, which is so important to the country, is unraveling. Part of it is immigrants, part of it is the European Union and feeling that French sovereignty is coming to an end, and a big part of it is the decline of the aspects of life that made France, France. There's a reason why the words "joie de vivre" are a significant part of the French lexicon, yet no equivalent phrase exists in English..."happiness" does not have the same connotation. It's also a fairness issue, as people who've paid into pension funds all their lives, and are about to enjoy the fruits of that labor, are being told "hey guess what, you're not getting what we said you'd get, sorry." Yet I also think that part of what's happening in France is the realization that reform is inevitable, and the symbolic value of the end of "the French way of life" looms larger than the actual issue itself...like the realization that the US is losing its middle class, and becoming more and more a nation of haves and have-nots...which wasn't what the American dream was supposed to be. People are more fatalistic about that kind of thing in the US, because of the "rugged individualist" ethos which has been a big part of the American dream. But in a country where social compacts are sacred, this is a big deal. What would happen in the US if people who had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars into social security woke up one day and were told "Sorry, we mismanaged the fund, and your money's gone. Oh, and jobs are shrinking, and so are wages, so don't really expect much as a 65-year-old re-entering the work market." Unfortunately, I'm concerned the riots in Greece and France are a taste of things to come, as the issue they're wrapped up in is a more or less global one. Keep your eye on Ireland...and frankly, the US will not be immune to this kind of unrest if the economy unravels further. If gas goes up to $4-5 a gallon and stays there, with an attendant increase in the cost of everything due to transportation and related costs, and incomes remain flat as they have for the past decade...people will be pretty distressed here, too. Don't want to travel too far into Political Party territory, but I think there's a reason why the media here is painting the picture as "nothing to see here, it's just those crazy French people." I see it more like a canary in a coal mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Johnny-Boy Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 The French are practically the inventors of liberty. Case in point, they chopped off the heads of their royals, whereas you guys are still pampering and worshipping their inbred butts. Russians did a fine job on theirs, also. Terry D. And those beheadings happened when? Oh yeah, now I remember, the same Century as the American Revolution. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 24, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 First of all...by all surveys, the French are among the most satisfied of industrial nations with their health care. Second, the French made the tradeoff some time ago regarding taxes and government services. They don't want something for nothing; they generally understand that the price they pay for services - museums, restoration of historical monuments, health care, education, social safety net, etc. - is the price they pay through taxes. It's said that Americans live to work, and the French work to live. While a generalization, there's some truth to that. When I did a seminar tour in Europe a few years back, the French were always the loosest in terms of scheduling and such, but in some ways, the most attentive. However, I think the current issue goes much deeper than it looks on the surface. The French way of life, which is so important to the country, is unraveling. Part of it is immigrants, part of it is the European Union and feeling that French sovereignty is coming to an end, and a big part of it is the decline of the aspects of life that made France, France. There's a reason why the words "joie de vivre" are a significant part of the French lexicon, yet no equivalent phrase exists in English..."happiness" does not have the same connotation. It's also a fairness issue, as people who've paid into pension funds all their lives, and are about to enjoy the fruits of that labor, are being told "hey guess what, you're not getting what we said you'd get, sorry." Yet I also think that part of what's happening in France is the realization that reform is inevitable, and the symbolic value of the end of "the French way of life" looms larger than the actual issue itself...like the realization that the US is losing its middle class, and becoming more and more a nation of haves and have-nots...which wasn't what the American dream was supposed to be. People are more fatalistic about that kind of thing in the US, because of the "rugged individualist" ethos which has been a big part of the American dream. But in a country where social compacts are sacred, this is a big deal. What would happen in the US if people who had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars into social security woke up one day and were told "Sorry, we mismanaged the fund, and your money's gone. Oh, and jobs are shrinking, and so are wages, so don't really expect much as a 65-year-old re-entering the work market." Unfortunately, I'm concerned the riots in Greece and France are a taste of things to come, as the issue they're wrapped up in is a more or less global one. Keep your eye on Ireland...and frankly, the US will not be immune to this kind of unrest if the economy unravels further. If gas goes up to $4-5 a gallon and stays there, with an attendant increase in the cost of everything due to transportation and related costs, and incomes remain flat as they have for the past decade...people will be pretty distressed here, too. Don't want to travel too far into Political Party territory, but I think there's a reason why the media here is painting the picture as "nothing to see here, it's just those crazy French people." I see it more like a canary in a coal mine. Thx, Craig - great response to my question. Helps me see a larger context in the current broohaha. Very interesting contrast between the US and France then - under these pressures the French then tend to blame government for not keeping up their end of the bargain, and in the US there is the tendency to blame government for BEING the problem. Behind these very different responses lie very different ideals (or myths) of "the good life" or "the way things are supposed to be". The French do seem hard to understand quite often - but I'm sure the US looks absolutely insane much of the time to the rest of the world... nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Sayers Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Excellent post Craig. Thank you.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members samtrips Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Surprised to see some sensible replies in this thread. Anderton, you put it very well. The canary theory, I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Giorgi Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 It's just a French thing to protest. Actually Italy is the top country in "protest rate", the 2nd one is France. But "riots" is an exaggeration, no riots here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Giorgi Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 However, I think the current issue goes much deeper than it looks on the surface. The French way of life, which is so important to the country, is unraveling. Part of it is immigrants, part of it is the European Union and feeling that French sovereignty is coming to an end, and a big part of it is the decline of the aspects of life that made France, France. This too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cirrus Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 The French are practically the inventors of liberty. Case in point, they chopped off the heads of their royals, whereas you guys are still pampering and worshipping their inbred butts. Russians did a fine job on theirs, also. Terry D. Sir! You have dishonoured her Majesty. Pistols at dawn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Richard King Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 The problem is that the whole social welfare system is built on a Ponzi Scheme that would make Bernie Madoff proud. Bernie had nothing on the Social Security System that we have. Collapse of that and much of the social welfare system is inevitable. France is just the first country trying to do something to get it under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Craig saved me some typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 It's not the French that 'cause the riots. They just protest. It's the North Africans from the suburbs that come to town to set things on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lukenskywalker Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 It's not the French that 'cause the riots. They just protest. It's the North Africans from the suburbs that come to town to set things on fire. Yes, former Colonials all coming to the Mother Country to live on the Dole, It's been happening since the end of WWII. The North Africans burn and destroy because they never really owned anything...why would you want to burn the housing project that you live in? Beats the {censored} out of me. Also this this particular generation of Immigrants has absolutely no work ethic. It's a big problem in France but endemic to other Countries in Europe, Especially the ones with former Empire status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 24, 2010 Moderators Share Posted October 24, 2010 I want pics of 60 year old French ladies in walkers and support hose kicking ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted October 24, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 It's just a French thing to protest. Actually Italy is the top country in "protest rate", the 2nd one is France. But "riots" is an exaggeration, no riots here It's certainly the case that the newspaper reporting focuses on the most dramatic images and incidents, and thereby misleading about the "by and large" which is the modus operandi of news. But I am reading about crowds dispersed with tear gas, some fires set, some looting, and "troublemakers" as Pres S says....so things are a bit dicey in some places at least, no? What impresses me is not the sporadic, uncharacteristic violence, but the sheer size of the population willing to hit the streets and have a go at the Establishment...I think here in the US we're too nervous, too twitchy, own too many guns, for that sort of thing. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Sayers Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 Australia is also raising it's retirement age. We are going from 65 - 67 and eventually 70. A lot has to do with the fact we are living longer due to advances in medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 24, 2010 Members Share Posted October 24, 2010 What impresses me is not the sporadic, uncharacteristic violence, but the sheer size of the population willing to hit the streets and have a go at the Establishment...I think here in the US we're too nervous, too twitchy, own too many guns, for that sort of thing.nat whilk ii It's also much more part of the culture around the Mediterranean to take to the streets to express yourself, to share something, to say something all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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