Do You Use Sampled Pianos? If So, Which One?

[Anderton]

I have to say I'm not a big fan of sampled pianos. But, I got some Synthogy Ivory II pianos in for review, and I was really quite impressed. They sound good, but they also have a good "feel," particularly with response to dynamics (even without a weighted keyboard).

 

So is it just me, or has Synthogy figured out the recipe? What do you think of sampled pianos in general, what are you using, and why?

[Bookumdano2]

I bought a whole bunch of Sampletek's pianos. Pretty cool in mixes.

 

I don't like Ivory much. Too clean and no character.

[Johnny-Boy]

Being a pianist, I'm always searching for better piano samples. I've spent a fortune in my search. Anyway... I find the the Garritan Steinway most consistent through all registers. The Pro version isn't available at present time, but the basic ($99 bargain) is. Here's a recent track I did using the basic. Not sure how it will cut through a heavy rock track yet.

 

"Blue Water"

http://schicksville.com/Music/Blue%20Water.mp3

 

Best, John

[nat whilk II]

I did some serious shopping for sampled pianos a couple of years ago. There are some great resources on the web for shootouts and demo listening.

 

My humble opinions on the major packages came to this:

 

Ivory - the groundbreaker for the latest round of truly impressive sampled pianos. Two years ago, it had fallen a tad behind, as good as it was. I see now they're up to Ivory II, so I'll have to pass on opinionizing, as I haven't demo'd it. I will say that the Fazoli model they came out with a whille back was the one I liked the best - and it has the amazing extended bass section - apparently the Fazoli pianos go lower than the usual range for concert grands.

 

Garritan Steinway - a partnership between Steinway and Garritan. This package has sweet, pearling, beautiful Steinway tones - really has that sound. Getting the samples to play evenly on a controller was more difficult than it should be, 'tho. Can't go wrong with this if you like the Steinway sound. If you want that "hundred brass bands" tone of the Yamaha C-3, look elswhere.

 

Pianoteq modeled piano - for sheer playable feel, this modeled piano really invites your hands to get into it. Doesn't have the tone of most of the other top-notch packages, true - but a whole lot of players have to have that connected-feeling on the keyboard, that control. This one has that. A lot of players would accept less-than-amazing tone for the inspiring playability.

 

EastWest Quantum Leap Pianos - this is the package I ended up buying. It came down to either this package or the Garritan Steinway. This package had four pianos, 'tho - Steinway, Yamaha, Bosendorfer, and Bechstein. And EastWest ran a great promotional sale, so that tipped the scale. I actually prefer the tone of the Garritan Steinway to the EWQL Steinway a bit. But the EWQL samples have the most presence and wow factor, no question. I play the Bechstein most often - very playable and musical - and pull out the Bosendorfer when I want a hugely present, big tone.

 

Before all these newer packages came out, I always preferred sampled pianos that really didn't try too hard to fool you. The sampled sound never did fool very many people anyway, so I considered "sampled piano" to just be another different instrument than a real piano. It had it's place. But these new packages are another level entirely.

 

And we're talking 12 hours at least to load the samples off DVDs for the larger sample sets, too.

 

nat whilk ii

[Extreme Mixing]

I have the Ivory II pianos. They are great for a natural grand sound. I have to say that I can record a better piano live, provided that it is a great piano in a great room, but the Ivory is good enough most of the time. And you get the advantage and convenience of MIDI. For R&B piano the Motif is hard to beat, or the S90es, also from Yamaha. I also like the Piano that comes with Pro Tools for many of the same reasons that the motif is great.

 

STeve

[Goobers]

I too have been generally unimpressed with piano samples, but am VERY interested in checking out Ivory II.

 

I think Garritan is AWFUL.

 

And the Pianoteq, while I admire the technology and think it will someday get there, is still too fake and thin sounding to float my boat.

[Anderton]

 

I too have been generally unimpressed with piano samples, but am VERY interested in checking out Ivory II.

 

 

I thought the original Ivory was okay, it had good sounds. What I like most about Ivory II is the feel; that probably has more to do with the programming behind the engine than the samples, although I like the samples too.

[Johnny-Boy]

Maybe I've been using piano samples too long. Acoustic pianos are starting to sound dull and synthesized to me.

 

John

[blue2blue]

I'm afraid all I have is the single True Pianos grand that came with Sonar 8.5. That said, I've really enjoyed it, since I don't have the extra dough (extra dough... I remember that... faintly) to buy a full package -- but then, I'd have to figure out which one best suited me and, frankly, that's one of those tortured decisions I'm in no rush to make, anyhow.

 

Would I'd really love to have would be my 116 year old upgright grand (stashed for safe keeping in the garage under my tiny apartment), repaired and tuned. And then a nice piano package, hopefully one with some funky real world pianos not unlike mine.

 

BTW, for Rhodes, I use the the donation-ware Mr Ray 73 modeling keyboard. I've heard single samples that sound more like a real world Rhodes -- but they never have the right dynamic feel. Mr Rhodes may not sound exactly like my buddy's old 73 I spent a fair amount of quality time with in the late 80s and early 90s in various jam sessions -- but it captures the feel, somehow, of playing a real Rhodes, maybe with a wee bit less chaos. Another nice thing about Mr Ray is that you can change a lot of the internals, since it's a modeling instrument, rather than sampling.

[blue2blue]

Maybe I've been using piano samples too long. Acoustic pianos are starting to sound dull and synthesized to me. John

It's funny, because a lot of the v-pianos that folks seem to like sound bright, hyped, and fakey to me. That said, they probably cut through a mix OK. But I can get the True Pianos Amber to cut through a mix with a little tinkering -- but, you know, much as I loved Nicky Hopkins, I'm just not a fan of that hyped, bright sound.

 

But, for me, feel is more important in some ways than sound. I went out and bought an 88 key weighted 'board precisely because playing plastic keyboard just felt so wrong to me. And I'm really glad I did. (And also glad I never fell for the impossible dream of getting the USB interface on my CME 'board working. Talk about, apparently, your drivers from hell.)

[Johnny-Boy]

The worst of the sampled pianos: http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=alicia+keys+sampled+piano (click on "Alicia Keys shows her signature piano software") . Maybe it's just the poor quality of the video, but this is just God-awful.

 

John:cool:

 

 

"Alicia Keys shows her signature piano software"

[blue2blue]

John -- that crap Yahoo search interface that's apparently designed to try to keep you on the Yahoo site (Yahoo is utterly clueless) screwed up your link... here's the YouTube vid -- one can click through to the YouTube site and watch in HD -- but the sound is, indeed, quite lame -- but I don't think it's YT's fault, when they get an HD vid, I don't think they usually munch the sound down. It all seemed to be from an onsite video recorder -- I wasn't even sure they bothered with a proper mic -- listen to how much room there is in the soundtrack. You'd think she could have loaned the vid guy a mic or something (since it was shot in her home studio).

 

Now, did I hear her say there are only 12 sample layers? (Well, I did.)

 

I was also a bit horrified that she said she loved the looks of that ugly thing (the Yammie C3 Neo) she's also gushing about. (That's a baby grand, innit? I'm shocked she uses a baby. Obviously, we can't tell much from this crappy vid soundtrack but it certainly doesn't sound impressive here. I'm sure it sounds better in real life -- but it strikes me a bit odd someone would go to the trouble of sampling such an instrument. I though babies were mostly room decor for the terminally bougie?)

 

And who wrote her pitch? She sounds like she should be selling white Cadillacs to guys in shiny white suits and broad brimmed felt hats with huge dyed feathers sticking out of the band as she delivered her spiel.

 

I waited through the whole ooze-fest of beautiful, amazing, feel the love award show superlatives -- but they never actually seemed to have the direct sound of the sample instrument. I think Native Instruments really needs a new head of electronic marketing.

 

[video=youtube;9dV_Q_npCtM]

[Johnny-Boy]

I agree with everything you said so elegantly Blue.

 

Best, John

[blue2blue]

I agree with everything you said so elegantly Blue. Best, John

I think maybe you meant to say, 'so snarkily'?

 

 

But, geez, that brushed aluminum bezel on the piano, What were they thinking? 'You know what this nice little piano needs? A big pimp-grill up front.'

[ggm1960]

Maybe I've been using piano samples too long. Acoustic pianos are starting to sound dull and synthesized to me. John

 

I actually can't stand the sound of most console pianos anymore and I'd rather play my Casio Privia PX-3 then a crappy old upright with sticky keys and dried up pads that let the piano sustain constantly.

 

I'm pretty easy to please I suppose, I like the piano sounds in my Korg TR88, PX-3, Roland Fantom and SampleTank. The only piano that I prefer is the baby grand Steinway that my friend has. That thing plays, and sounds, fantastic!

[144dB]

My DAW is an Athlon XP 2800 with 2 GB of RAM, so even with disk streaming, some of the newer pianos are going to bring it to its knees. A new DAW is in the works for mid-2012.

 

I currently use an out-of-production sample set of a Yamaha C7 (Vintaudio collection). I like the tone and the fact that it has three discrete sample sets for ambient, player perspective, and close-miked playing, but I sometimes find it hard to blend with other instruments. It's a multi-GB sample set, and I think there are at least 6 layers in the heavy programs (with pedal down sounds, etc.).

 

Sampled pianos are really the only alternative for me. I'm not a concert pianist, so the subtleties aren't going to be noticed by me, and I'm not generally playing highly dynamic passages or Mozart sonatas. I have an upright piano, but room acoustics, miking, etc. aren't going to produce a sound that will glue to a mix. And I generally believe that the multi-GB sample sets are going to sound more realistic than the compressed ROM on a high-end keyboard.

 

When I do get a modern DAW, I'll probably pick up Komplete (which has ~3 sampled pianos), and perhaps one of the more modern sample sets.

 

Todd

[Johnny-Boy]

Bottom-line...

 

The choice in piano samples depends on the application it's going to be used on. For solo piano (lounge, classical, soft pop, etc) I prefer Garritan. If I have an orchestra work where there's a left hand arpeggio playing in the background, I'll use the EWQL piano (great low-end sound). Since I don't do the heavy rock tracks, I wouldn't have any idea what piano samples would cut though that (maybe the Yamaha C7). At times I'll use Roland, Korg, Ensoniq, and Motif pianos. Depends...

 

I have the NI Akoustik Piano. A little disappointed in that one, but I may find a use for it sometime. I have heard some musicians getting good results from the Akoustik.

 

I also have the William Coakley samples http://www.williamcoakley.com/piano.php?product=PPP - not bad.

 

Sometime I'll add the Ivory collection to my arsenal.

 

John

[Lee Knight]

 

I actually can't stand the sound of most console pianos anymore and I'd rather play my Casio Privia PX-3 then a crappy old upright with sticky keys and dried up pads that let the piano sustain constantly.

 

 

I bought a re-branded Young Chang for 400 bucks. Perfect condition and sounds great. The proverbial "car" the old lady only drove once a week to church. Not quite a full upright grand but close. When you pull all the panels off and mic it up... I love it. For me, samples don't do it. Unless I'm going for a sampled sound. That House Music one dimensional thing that's admittedly very cool. But that's not a piano to me.

 

On the other hand, if I were producing up to date pop music of the young persons kind, I'd most likely be embracing the newer sampled pianos for ease, expediency and variety sake.

 

So, not to detract from the direction of the thread, which is a good one, I'd just like to point out that the idea of a good sounding piano in your home and a coupe a decent mikes is still very much a doable proposition. And one I'm sticking with for a while.

[blue2blue]

I actually can't stand the sound of most console pianos anymore and I'd rather play my Casio Privia PX-3 then a crappy old upright with sticky keys and dried up pads that let the piano sustain constantly. I'm pretty easy to please I suppose, I like the piano sounds in my Korg TR88, PX-3, Roland Fantom and SampleTank. The only piano that I prefer is the baby grand Steinway that my friend has. That thing plays, and sounds, fantastic!

Growing up in the 50s, most of the pianos I played (toyed on) as a kid were uprights. When I finally spent some time on a spinet, I wasn't much impressed, that's for sure. I also got to play with the baby grand at my 'rich' aunt's house (that my musically adept cousin abandoned to her abject chagrin for a Martin D-18 and a bluetrass band). So the spinet that belonged to my first serious GF was a bit of a disappointment. I spent some time on perennially out of tune console pianos in the practice rooms of one of the schools I took recording classes at and, while it was nice to have something besides the Casio MT-140 that was my only keyboard for much of the 80's, it was always annoying at best to play such out of tunes instruments. [And then there was the cacophony produced by 20 or so piano students of varying degrees of ineptitude blasting through the walls.] I tried to imagine what it would all sound like. But I was a pretty heavy handed player in those days -- so a piano tuner turned maker pal of mine told me one time when he flew downstairs in the middle of a particularly spirited spell of automatic playing [on his baby, a beautiful old upright he'd reconsructed] -- so I guess I was probably part of the problem for those beleaguered community college consoles.

[Dave Bryce]

What I like most about Ivory II is the feel; that probably has more to do with the programming behind the engine than the samples

No doubt. That's the key to sampled pianos. I've heard well programmed 8, 16 and 24 MB pianos that have just killed 2+ GB libraries that were just basically long crossfaded samples, and (to me) were unplayable.

 

I've been a fan of Ivory sound designer Joe Ierardi's work since he crafted the first piano samples from Kurzweil. His ~1MB 32k mono PC88 sample set was under everyone's fingers in the 90s.

 

I really like Ivory, especially the Italian grand.

 

dB

[nat whilk II]

No doubt. That's the key to sampled pianos. I've heard well programmed 8, 16 and 24 MB pianos that have just killed 2+ GB libraries that were just basically long crossfaded samples, and (to me) were unplayable. I've been a fan of Ivory sound designer Joe Ierardi's work since he crafted the first piano samples from Kurzweil. His ~1MB 32k mono PC88 sample set was under everyone's fingers in the 90s. I really like Ivory, especially the Italian grand. dB

 

Mr. Dave Bryce!! If it is to please you, I most humbly request that you visit our most humble SSS more often with your august commentary!

 

For those of you who know not - Mr. Dave Bryce is a HEAVY HITTER in the synth/sampling world and we could benefit from his contributions most favorably!!

 

 

I am serious, truly.

 

nat whilk ii

[Anderton]

I really like Ivory, especially the Italian grand.

 

Agreed about the Italian Grand. But I have to say, the uprights are really nice. I don't have any interest in the honky-tonk or tack piano, though, no one has asked me to score a Western lately But there's no denying they did a good job if that's what you want.

 

I once had to fit a piano in 64k of memory. No kidding. However, it taught me a trick that works REALLY well with sub-standard piano samples: layer a sine wav in the low end, and have it fade out as it goes higher on the keyboard. It gives some extra power.

[Gus Lozada]

I only have and use Pro Tools' MiniGrand.

Good enough for me.

[Beck]

I haven't been too thrilled with software pianos, but I haven

[samtrips]

 

I only have and use Pro Tools' MiniGrand . Good enough for me.

 

 

I am the same - it does a fair job for what I need. I was so impressed when I first heard it (not having a big experience of softsynths or pianos, really!) that I really started playing it a lot more.

 

I make quite weird stuff most of the time and I really like the way it sounds through my moogerfooger analog delay plugin so that gets a fair bit of use - also if you're messing with the sound to put it on a track with pop/psych feeling then it somewhat masks the fact it is not perhaps the best on the market - it maybe might do less of a good job if you were trying to record a solo piano piece with a 'real' sound, but that's not what I do - nowhere near good enough for solo joanna yet!