Members rasputin1963 Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 Those of you familiar with the 1969 "progressive jazz" album BITCHES' BREW by Miles Davis and band. What do you make of it? Is it jazz? Can it be placed in the "history of jazz" ? Is it a master piece on a par with Picasso's revolutions in painting (as it has been called), or is it a bunch of self-indulgent, pretentious mishmosh? Does it sound still hip to you today? Are any of you really big fans of that album? Are there any of you who just think it sounds like noise and noodling? Dave [video=youtube;vUVXMWOWaS8] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 Maybe because, at this point, it is simultaneously always familiar and yet still somehow surprising, maybe it's because, this morning, I'm taking off a long mix of Osborne Brothers, Stanley Brothers, and Bob Wills tracks to put this on, but it just feels right. Like the always unsettling but inarguably right mountain harmonies of the Stanleys, Bitches Brew sounds right... inevitable in the way that the ocean's chaos will sooner or later deliver a pearl to your feet if you stand upon the shore in one place long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 What do you make of it? Is it jazz? Can it be placed in the "history of jazz" ? Is it a master piece on a par with Picasso's revolutions in painting (as it has been called), or is it a bunch of self-indulgent, pretentious mishmosh? It sounds like wonderful music. It's jazz, stretched a bit. Why don't people stretch their genres today? And it's already placed in the "history of jazz"...it's considered one of the greatest jazz releases of all times by one of the greatest jazz artists of all time. Is it a master on par with Piccaso's paintings? I have no idea. You could draw a parallel to that, I suppose. Does it sound still hip to you today? Are any of you really big fans of that album? Are there any of you who just think it sounds like noise and noodling?Dave It sounds fantastic. I love the album. I don't think it sounds like noodling. I am a big fan of "Big Fun", a Miles album that is often overlooked. It's considerably more spacey and quite different from most of his other releases. [video=youtube;MjdevAFJciM] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LRon Butterfly Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 Sounds like.... [video=youtube;0rIXipAV6Fs] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted September 3, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 Sounds like.... A bunch of farting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 I always considered it has the genius of innovation. It's the very young, green spring phase of the fusion era. So it's like this big basket of eggs from which a whole generation of new sounds and tendencies and bands would hatch. The album certainly caught the imagination of a long long list of very smart and skilled musicians. I'm a huge Zawinul/Weather Report fan, so he can do no wrong to my ears - Pharoah's Dance is his tune, so it's very familiar territory to me. Compare Pharoah's Dance to this cut on WR's first album: 7b_PP51swj8 Noise & noodling? Well, they can be music, too, seems to me, if smartly done. Bitches Brew does remind me of all the "excessive" big double-albums from around 1970, like George Harrison's All Things Must Pass - also had multiple drummers and a huge list of musicians, kind of a free-for-all at times. It worked, albeit a little sloppy at times. Those days are so long gone it makes your head spin a bit. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ronan Murphy Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 I know Bitches Brew is the classic, but when I want that era Miles I am usually pulling out "In a Silent Way" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 I've never loved that one. It's interesting because of the talent combinations but it doesn't seem to ever really BE anything. Maybe that was the point. God knows there is less coherent art out there. Miles was probably my favorite music man of all time. I trust he was trying something out purposely as he did many times. That's why he was the legend he was, he was fearless and unconcerned, his confidence in his judgement and convictions made him the legend he is. I cried when he died and i don't think there is anyone else who i will ever feel that sort of musical affection for, not to date anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spokenward Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 Nat Whilk makes the double album connection. I think the weight of Bitches Brew is mostly in the double pocket. This retrospective review at Jazztimes gets a lot of things right. It would be fun to see Teo Macero's notes on the assembly. Bitches Brew never made me smile. In a Silent Way always makes me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mcmike100 Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 I owned the LP, and a few years ago I bought the new boxed set, with additional material. I can't have it on in the background. It's not casual music. It has to be listened too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 This is a very interesting topic for me. I absolutely LOVE most of Miles's stuff, from his really early stuff with Parker like ANIT [video=youtube;ftufBy6uN4A] to all his standard stuff onwards, like So What, etc, and especially Miles Smiles (and the track Circle off that album) [video=youtube;YRiwDuzadl0] and in fact I really think that one of the pinnacles of musical achievement of all time is the first 3 albums of The Mahavishnu Orchestra (who John McLaughlin claims that was inspired by and was trying to emulate Miles) and I absolutely love tons of jazz, fusion, etc, esp Al DiMeola and Chic Corea and Weather Report and Return to Forever and Jaco Pastorius stuff, etc. etc., but to be honest, Bitches Brew has never done it for me. I just can't get into it at all, on any level. I know this is complete sacrilege and I'm gonna sound really ignorant and like someone who just doesn't get it, but for me, it truly just sounds like a group of musos randomly making noise. I just don't see any genius in it at all, ESPECIALLY when compared with Miles's other works. Even his later stuff in the 80's which no one seems to dig at all and no one ever mentions, that I absolutely LOVE and can absolutely see the genuis in it, especially tracks like Decoy from '83 [video=youtube;A4K-mInFXCI] but as I said earlier, all I hear when I listen to BB is a bunch of musos just making random noise, but that's ESPECIALLY true when compared to his other stuff, particularly what I've listed. Again, as a disclaimer, this is just my own personal opinion, obviously I'm in the minority, so maybe it's me that I'm just not getting it, hopefully someday I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roomjello Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 yeah, Decoy is monstrously genius, i love it over and over and over, what a line up."We want miles" is great too as far as double albums go. Al Foster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 I loved Bitches Brew when it came out and still do today. So many of my favorite players on there.......McLaughlin, Cobham, Chick, Zawinul, Shorter, Lenny White, Don Alias, Jack DeJohnette, Dave Holland, Airto......... what a brew!! To me the 70's were friggen awesome as far as music, especially Jazz-Rock...Fusion...whatever you like to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 but as I said earlier, all I hear when I listen to BB is a bunch of musos just making random noise, but that's ESPECIALLY true when compared to his other stuff, particularly what I've listed. Again, as a disclaimer, this is just my own personal opinion, obviously I'm in the minority, so maybe it's me that I'm just not getting it, hopefully someday I will. Or maybe not. I realize you listen to and love Miles, but if you don't like something, you don't like something. I really like the album, but like "Big Fun" even more, and probably play "Kind Of Blue" more often too, for that matter. Also, there's only about one percent of the music-buying public that listens to jazz, so it's a small minority of music lovers that listen to this stuff anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 I listen to and love quite a lot of jazz (including a lot of Miles), actually, but I'm kinda in the same camp as roomjello and to an extent, chevyb. I don't exactly think BB is "random noise and noodling" - I agree with roomjello that it's obvious it was done with a purpose. I'm just not into it. I love jazz, but I don't like much "fusion" at all and this record obviously was a precursor to fusion. I'm all for stretching genres if it works - I just don't personally think this particular stretch works. That said, I'd much rather listen to BB itself than most of what it inspired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 My friend, who is not a jazz nut, loooooves "Kind Of Blue", and was curious about some of the other stuff. He asked me to play him "BB". He couldn't stand it. It was too wiggy, too full of noise and chaos for him. Miles did a lot of things, stretching his audience. Maybe there's a lot of people who like some Miles stuff and not others, wouldn't be surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 I know some of you know this already, but for those who don't, I grew up knowing Alice Coltrane and traveled to India for a month with her son. So as you can imagine, I heard a LOT of John Coltrane growing up. And I have immense appreciation for his talent and music. But some of his stuff, I just don't listen to very much, or have to be in a very specific mood for, as it's quite rackety. It's just different taste. And as you can imagine, I also grew up listening to Alice Coltrane. I was exposed to "Huntington Ashram Monastery" first, then got into her other stuff later. I *love* "Journey Into Satchidananda" by Alice Coltrane, one of my favorite jazz releases ever. But it wasn't just her albums. I went to her ashram countless times, and so actually, most of my memories of her music is of her singing, sometimes accompanied by harmonium, but mostly singing in a sort of gospel style but with Hindu words!!!! Rather different from how most people heard her, I think. But even despite having these wonderful experiences and memories, I can't listen to everything of theirs. You can't expect to like everything, and even if something is supposed to be classic, it may not completely resonate with you. I listen to John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" only periodically, instead preferring to play Alice Coltrane's "Journey Into Satchidananda" far more often. For me, it just transports me and is such a beautiful piece of work. But this is quite unusual for lovers of the Coltrane's music! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 Miles did a lot of things, stretching his audience. Maybe there's a lot of people who like some Miles stuff and not others, wouldn't be surprising. I would say that's totally probable. It certainly doesn't diminish my overall opinion of him. I realize he was all about pushing boundaries and that's great in itself - I don't have to like every single result and I don't expect to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted September 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 I absolutely LOVE Bitches Brew. And Kind of Blue and Sketches and Silent Way too. Is it jazz? I don't much care about labels but yeah... it is jazz. Zawinul's Pharoe's Dance is jazz. Then Mile's own Bitches Brew, the 2nd side... what isn't jazz about it? The tape delay??? I'm amazed at how multiple drummers and bass players could create something so ugly/beautiful. Those players on those 4 sides were all ears. I love it. The bass clarinet half way into Bitches just kills me. Like riding the Pirates of Caribbean ride at Disneyland while on acid. If it's any help for the naysayers, try this, listen to Bitches from the bottom up. If you follow the squeals and blurts and dissonance first, it sounds ugly. But if you come from the ground up and groove with bassists, and Chick's left hand, it's beautiful. Bottom to top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 yeah, Decoy is monstrously genius, i love it over and over and over, what a line up."We want miles" is great too as far as double albums go. Al Foster. Hellyeah man right on!!! I raelly can't belive that so few Miles fans ever mention any of his later stuff like Decoy...in fact, I've never heard ONE ever even mention it!!!! I also think it's a shame that it doesn't get the same treatement and rep as all his other stuff, cuz as far as I'm concerned it's as just as good (if not better) than all standard stuff everyone mentions whenever Miles Davis comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 Or maybe not. I realize you listen to and love Miles, but if you don't like something, you don't like something. I really like the album, but like "Big Fun" even more, and probably play "Kind Of Blue" more often too, for that matter.Also, there's only about one percent of the music-buying public that listens to jazz, so it's a small minority of music lovers that listen to this stuff anyway. That's true, it's been almost 10 years since I've heard it, and I've listned to it multiple times since then (I even listened to some of it when I saw this thread) and I still can't get into at all....you're right, sometimes you just don't like something, and I think that's the case with me and BB...to me all I hear is a bucnch of musos making noise, and given how much I like what they all do outside of BB that makes it even more harder to listen to or get into I guess.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 I loved Bitches Brew when it came out and still do today. So many of my favorite players on there.......McLaughlin, Cobham, Chick, Zawinul, Shorter, Lenny White, Don Alias, Jack DeJohnette, Dave Holland, Airto......... what a brew!!To me the 70's were friggen awesome as far as music, especially Jazz-Rock...Fusion...whatever you like to call it. See that's what's so crazy for me, is that I absolutely LOVE everything else by all the other musos that are on BB, ESPECIALLY McLaughlin (who I think is not only the greatest guitarist of all time but also one ofthe graetest musos/composers of all time), along with Cobham, Corea, Shorter and others, but to me what they're doing on BB just sounds like straight up noise. I know it sounds crazy but that's just how I hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 See that's what's so crazy for me, is that I absolutely LOVE everything else by all the other musos that are on BB, ESPECIALLY McLaughlin (who I think is not only the greatest guitarist of all time but also one ofthe graetest musos/composers of all time), along with Cobham, Corea, Shorter and others, but to me what they're doing on BB just sounds like straight up noise. I know it sounds crazy but that's just how I hear it.Sounds like your reaction to Bitches Brew is sort of like my bemusement over my reaction to Coltrane's A Love Supreme. I'm generally a huge fan of 'Trane, inside, outside, and all around. But, for some reason, I've just never been able to really absorb that rather monumental work. I figure some day, maybe, probably, even, it will all sort of drop into place. One day I'll be listening and dope slap myself and say, Oh, now I get it! But, so far, it remains elusively outside my grasp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted September 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 See that's what's so crazy for me, is that I absolutely LOVE everything else by all the other musos that are on BB, ESPECIALLY McLaughlin (who I think is not only the greatest guitarist of all time but also one ofthe graetest musos/composers of all time), along with Cobham, Corea, Shorter and others, but to me what they're doing on BB just sounds like straight up noise. I know it sounds crazy but that's just how I hear it. OK. "sounds like straight up noise" But it isn't. It just sounds that way to you. Sounds like I'm being flippant or in your face? Not at all. But what I'm saying is true. "How dare he state he knows the truth!!!" Right? Here's why I say it isn't noise. Because I hear the logic and euphoric interplay between the musicians. I'm not saying you're wrong in not liking it. To each his own of course. But if you're confusing you lack of understanding of getting it or whatever you want to call it, with somehow stamping the music as "less than" then you are mistaken. I've never liked Mahavishnu. It doesn't do it for me. But a lot of very appreciative music fans do get it. I don't. I suspect one day I will. Mahavishnu seems to garner the sort of respect that great things earn. That makes me willing to someday take the time and try to see what it is I've been missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 Sounds like your reaction to Bitches Brew is sort of like my bemusement over my reaction to Coltrane's A Love Supreme. I'm generally a huge fan of 'Trane, inside, outside, and all around. But, for some reason, I've just never been able to really absorb that rather monumental work. I figure some day, maybe, probably, even, it will all sort of drop into place. One day I'll be listening and dope slap myself and say, Oh, now I get it! But, so far, it remains elusively outside my grasp... Hellyeah man right on! Same exact thing with me and BB LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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