How to form a band... where YOU remain boss...?

[rasputin1963]

I know, I know, you're gonna call me Mister Bossy-Pants. But I have a legitimate question:

 

Let's say you have a definite conceptual idea for a band... You don't have your players yet, but you are firm in your belief that this band will not be a softheaded "democracy"... a teenaged free-for-all in which every player does as he wishes....

 

The long and the short of it: You want to be boss. You want to determine what songs get played, and you want to provide rough leadsheets to ensure that the songs have shape, and you are not just fuelling a garage-band free-for-all.

 

How does the more serious, conceptual band get formed? A band with a tight image, style and defined sound?

[gdoubleyou]

You have to put it in writing, a basic contract where you have the power to hire and fire.

[Lee Knight]

Either book the gigs, thereby in effect being responsible for paying your players, or if this is gratis, find players that are absolutely in love with your concept. That 2nd one's a toughy but possible. I've played bass and sang backup on gigs of writers where I just dug their stuff so much, their concept was so fully realized, etc. that I was willing to play to odd gig free and follow their wonderful direction. But do you really have that to offer?

 

 

If this a money situation, book the gigs, refine the concept, put all the work into it ahead of hiring guys, then it's a no-brainer for them. You're boss, they get paid. You want me to play root/5, wear a diaper and crew socks and... you pay 300 a night. Do I supply the diaper and socks? Cause I can...

[UstadKhanAli]

Be unbelievably great, with a fantastic presence and charisma and well-written songs that are so obviously good so musicians beat a door down to play with you for free.

 

Otherwise, pay attention to Lee Knight's post.

[Jimbroni]

 

well-written songs

 

 

That's what its all about. End of story. Everything else is just BS crap we have to put up with..

[Bookumdano2]

I haven't played a gig here in LA for a two bazillion years. Never played a band situation that wasn't overflowing with gigs before I got in it... or started it. In that respect, I guess I've never done the "hey wanna start a band" thing.

 

Gigs or other financial deals help tremendously with the power aspect.

 

But... if there are no gigs, or there is no deal....let's face it.... it IS a garage band.

 

In that scenario, no one can be counted on for anything. You can count on that.

 

About the only thing you can do is be sure you own the garage and that way.. if someone's giving you a hard time or not following your vision... stop inviting them to your garage.

[Lee Flier]

My band of 11 years is more or less a democracy, but it's certainly not "softheaded" nor a "teenage free-for-all." We simply found other people with more or less the same musical vision, and no ego trips. If the concept is well defined and you can attract people who are into the idea, there's no problem.

 

Whoever wrote any given song has the final say if there's any disagreement over arrangements, etc. Anybody's welcome to write songs, and anybody can veto a song (which rarely happens because none of us bothers to submit a song or a song idea unless we're quite sure the others are going to like it). We all work hard at giving input into each song and working up appropriate parts. And we all listen to each other and figure out pretty easily what works and what doesn't.

 

So we're pretty much the second situation that Lee K described, even though we don't have a real "boss". Yes, it's tougher to form a band that way because finding exactly the right people is critical, which can be very difficult. But, IMO, once you do find the right people it's way worth it.

[John Bartus]

 

My band of 11 years is more or less a democracy, but it's certainly not "softheaded" nor a "teenage free-for-all." We simply found other people with more or less the same musical vision, and no ego trips. If the concept is well defined and you can attract people who are into the idea, there's no problem. Whoever wrote any given song has the final say if there's any disagreement over arrangements, etc. Anybody's welcome to write songs, and anybody can veto a song (which rarely happens because none of us bothers to submit a song or a song idea unless we're quite sure the others are going to like it). We all work hard at giving input into each song and working up appropriate parts. And we all listen to each other and figure out pretty easily what works and what doesn't. So we're pretty much the second situation that Lee K described, even though we don't have a real "boss". Yes, it's tougher to form a band that way because finding exactly the right people is critical, which can be very difficult. But, IMO, once you do find the right people it's way worth it.

 

 

You are very fortunate. I find it like pulling hen's teeth to get bandmates to play originals... even though nobody else writes, AND I get all the gigs! It's a huge reason why I play solo 80-90% of the time. Dealing with musicians who are satisfied just playing classic rock standards -- and are too damn lazy to learn anything new -- frustrates the living hell out of me.

[scarecrowbob]

You can get all the control you'd want if you're hiring people and paying them.

 

If you're not paying them, then expect them to want creative control of what they do.

 

We're both in the Hill Country and I have a real idea about the availability of folks in the area. If you consistently paid people 150-250 a night, you can get okay players who will play whatever you need them to play (IME), with the main barrier being that it will be difficult to get them to learn one-off material unless you can notate it.

 

The other obvious problem is that it can get kind of expensive to do that unless you're getting a pretty good rate, which is not likely doing originals where you're at.

[deanmass]

 

My band of 11 years is more or less a democracy, but it's certainly not "softheaded" nor a "teenage free-for-all." We simply found other people with more or less the same musical vision, and no ego trips. If the concept is well defined and you can attract people who are into the idea, there's no problem. Whoever wrote any given song has the final say if there's any disagreement over arrangements, etc. Anybody's welcome to write songs, and anybody can veto a song (which rarely happens because none of us bothers to submit a song or a song idea unless we're quite sure the others are going to like it). We all work hard at giving input into each song and working up appropriate parts. And we all listen to each other and figure out pretty easily what works and what doesn't. So we're pretty much the second situation that Lee K described, even though we don't have a real "boss". Yes, it's tougher to form a band that way because finding exactly the right people is critical, which can be very difficult. But, IMO, once you do find the right people it's way worth it.

 

 

From what I know of your band, it is held together by friendship, trust and mutual respect. That is really rare.

[A. Einstein]

 

How does the more serious, conceptual band get formed? A band with a tight image, style and defined sound?

 

 

 

Bands usually divide all income by equal parts, otherwise they fall apart sooner or later.

[MikeRivers]

 

The long and the short of it: You want to be boss. You want to determine what songs get played, and you want to provide rough leadsheets to ensure that the songs have shape, and you are not just fuelling a garage-band free-for-all.

 

 

You hire musicians to play your music with you. If it works, ask them if they'd like to continue as a band to play your music.

[beatpoet]

Install yourself as the lead singer, songwriter and guitarist

[JeffLearman]

 

You hire musicians to play your music with you. If it works, ask them if they'd like to continue as a band to play your music.

This. Very simple: just hire your sidemen and pay them each per gig. That includes paying them even when you get stiffed, of course. You book the gigs, you pick the set list, you do the work.

 

Of course, if you're a god leader and not a fool, you pay close attention to their feedback and encourage teamwork, just as good leaders do in any "work for hire" situation. Like my engineering job: I do what I'm told, but if my management doesn't value my judgement, we're both better off not working together.

 

 

How does the more serious, conceptual band get formed? A band with a tight image, style and defined sound?

That's a completely different question. A democracy can have this, and a bandleader with hired guns can lack it.

[Lee Flier]

 

You are very fortunate. I find it like pulling hen's teeth to get bandmates to play originals... even though nobody else writes, AND I get all the gigs! It's a huge reason why I play solo 80-90% of the time. Dealing with musicians who are satisfied just playing classic rock standards -- and are too damn lazy to learn anything new -- frustrates the living hell out of me.

 

 

I honestly don't understand why anybody like that would want to keep playing. I go nuts if I don't keep things fresh and come up with new stuff. My bandmates are the same way. There ARE people who prefer to play originals, but it's a different mindset, and perhaps it's easier to find them in a big city.

[Lee Knight]

 

I honestly don't understand why anybody like that would want to keep playing. I go nuts if I don't keep things fresh and come up with new stuff. My bandmates are the same way. There ARE people who prefer to play originals, but it's a different mindset, and perhaps it's easier to find them in a big city.

 

 

Once everybody's retired professionally from music and have rewarding day gigs, it's a lot easier to play what you want to play for little to no pay. It's easier to find people that don't fall into thte "Dad Band" classic rock cliche and want to play great music for the sheer love of it. It's something they did professionally at one time and now what that satisfaction without the heartache of depending on it.

[Lee Flier]

From what I know of your band, it is held together by friendship, trust and mutual respect. That is really rare.

 

For sure! Playing original music is not easy. You have to face the fact right off the bat that very few people are going to give a crap, especially the way the music biz is these days, and especially if you're not 18 anymore. So if you don't build your band around a tight friendship and a ton of mutual respect for each other's musicianship, there are going to be a lot of times where it's tough to keep going, and that's when bands tend to break up or have people quit. If you really want the band to be good, you're going to end up spending a ton of hours in rehearsal rooms and recording studios and crammed in vans and hotel rooms on the way to gigs. If you don't truly love the people you're hanging around with, that is going to be a living nightmare. But if you do, you love every minute of it.

 

I also think that having a very trusting relationship really helps the music and the songwriting. It can be nerve wracking to show an unfinished or undeveloped song to your bandmates and trust that they're going to recognize what's good about it and work hard to get the best from it - and also that they'll be honest enough to tell you when they don't think it's all that great, without being an ass about it.

 

For sure it is really rare to have that kind of thing. I'm thankful for it every day. But it didn't happen entirely by luck and certainly not by accident. I simply refused to compromise on that point and kept looking and looking till I found the right people and they became available. It took a long time, and a lot of that time I felt like it was never going to happen. So you have to be pretty relentless. Then again, if you are crazy and obsessive and romantic enough to want to play original music, you just might be crazy and obsessive and romantic enough to find the right people to play with.

[Lee Flier]

This. Very simple: just hire your sidemen and pay them each per gig. That includes paying them even when you get stiffed, of course. You book the gigs, you pick the set list, you do the work.

 

Yep, this is certainly the quickest way to get things done if you can afford it.

 

That's a completely different question. A democracy can have this, and a bandleader with hired guns can lack it.

 

For sure. A band is less likely to have a distinctive sound and style if it's comprised of hired guns.

 

You're not necessarily limited to either hired guns or a democracy though. I and one or both of my primary bandmates also play with several other bands where we're not really either one - I'm just the guitar player, and someone else is calling the shots and writing the songs, and we don't necessarily get paid a fixed fee per gig or anything. For all intents and purposes it's a regular original band situation. But in all of these cases, we do it because the band leader is seriously talented, we love their songs and their style is already right in our wheelhouse. We're not going to feel constricted in that situation, it's going to be a great time. And none of these guys are egocentric assholes, they're all good friends, so that helps.

 

I suppose this is more like a case of what Ken said: "Be unbelievably great, with a fantastic presence and charisma and well-written songs that are so obviously good so musicians beat a door down to play with you for free."

[Lee Flier]

 

Once everybody's retired professionally from music and have rewarding day gigs, it's a lot easier to play what you want to play for little to no pay. It's easier to find people that don't fall into thte "Dad Band" classic rock cliche and want to play great music for the sheer love of it. It's something they did professionally at one time and now what that satisfaction without the heartache of depending on it.

 

 

Yeah, in theory it can work that way, and it does among a lot of my friends. But it seems like when people get older they go one of two ways: either they totally re-affirm their commitment to music as in the situation you describe, or they become totally moribund and join some classic rock cover band that allows them to re-live their youth for a few hours with their buddies at somebody's backyard BBQ, and they never practice or try to learn anything new. I think there are some people who can't take anything that seriously unless they're doing it for a living. And maybe even then - it's just more of a job to them like any other job. That's the thing I can't relate to at all.

[Lee Knight]

 

Yeah, in theory it can work that way, and it does among a lot of my friends. But it seems like when people get older they go one of two ways: either they totally re-affirm their commitment to music as in the situation you describe, or they become totally moribund and join some classic rock cover band that allows them to re-live their youth for a few hours with their buddies at somebody's backyard BBQ, and they never practice or try to learn anything new. I think there are some people who can't take anything that seriously unless they're doing it for a living. And maybe even then - it's just more of a job to them like any other job. That's the thing I can't relate to at all .

 

 

Me neither.

[blue2blue]

But... if there are no gigs, or there is no deal....let's face it.... it IS a garage band. In that scenario, no one can be counted on for anything. You can count on that. About the only thing you can do is be sure you own the garage and that way.. if someone's giving you a hard time or not following your vision... stop inviting them to your garage.

[WRGKMC]

Its like any other business. The boss supplies the paycheck and can hire and fire.

he is usually seen as the father figure giving direction and receiving respect from others.

If you arent cut out for making those kind of tough decisions, then you probibly arent

cut out for that role. If a band has no leader then thats where a hired manager or agent comes in.

 

When I give advice to those wanting to be musicians at an earley age, I also suggest they take corses in business.

You have to know how to sell the product and in the case of a band, the band and its recordings is the product.

The problem with this is business isnt exactly compatible with art, but your most successful artists understand business.

It hasnt changed throughout history. Even the great masters had to be paid by those who appreciated their artwork or they died

in poverty. It makes no difference how good you are if your work is never heard and appreciated by others. There have been plenty of

untalented musicians make a mint because they knew how to market their artwork to the masses.

[blue2blue]

One of my longtime 3DW acquaintances has figured it out...

 

[video=youtube;AeoSNbqRJkE]

[blue2blue]

I started recording myself at home, in large part, because I was sick of being in bands. (Also 'cause I was engineering in other people's studios and, at the time, it filled me with a lot of energy. After a while, it seemed to drain me working on other people's recordings, to the extent that I didn't feel like making my own music. At that point, I decided it was time to take down the shingle.)

[Lee Flier]

 

Its like any other business.

 

 

Actually, making original music is NOT like any other business, and treating as such is part of the problem. Not to say that at some point you won't need business skills (whether they're your own or you get an outside agent/manager to handle the business part for you) if you want to have a particular type of success. But the OP isn't even asking that. He's just asking how you would form a band in the first place that has a defined sound and style, where he would be the one defining what that is, conceptually/artistically.

 

Really the first question you have to ask yourself if you're going to do this is: why are you doing it? Would you be happy if you could simply fully realize your creative goals, without a whole lot of financial reward? If the answer is no, you're probably better off not doing it, in all honesty. And that's what makes it different from any other business. I think a lot of people are not honest with themselves about this question, and that's where they get in trouble. Answering "yes" to this question doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't try to be financially successful, once you actually have something artistically coherent to "sell." But getting to that point requires a lot of commitment to something besides financial success, because seriously, if the business end of things is your main concern, go start a corporate cover band or a tribute band. Or go become a stock broker or something. Don't bother with any kind of art. Your odds of being really financially successful with your own music are somewhere around the same as winning the lottery, even if you're really good. And the world certainly doesn't need any more "artists" who are just in it for the money and/or the ego trip.

 

So once you've decided that your primary goal is to realize a certain creative vision and find other people who want to help you do that, then you can either pay people out of your own pocket to do whatever you want them to do, or spend the time to find people who are already on board with what you're doing and willing to commit to it the way you're committed to it. Either way you'll need some demos and/or lead sheets, and you'll need to be able to communicate clearly to the other people what you want to do. Not being an asshole and being willing to give some leeway to the other musicians and listen to their input (assuming they have a clue about the style you're going for in the first place, which is paramount) helps too. You can be "the boss" and still value the others' input as long as they are the right person for the job to begin with. Otherwise, you've really gotta just pay them to do what you want, at least on a temporary basis till you can find the real right people.

 

Only after you actually have something to offer as a band do you really need to start worrying about the business end of things, if that is your goal.