Jump to content

Drums In The Center


Recommended Posts

  • CMS Author

I'm talking stage setup here, not panning in a recording.

 

There seems to be a law that the lead singer always has to be in the middle (though it's OK for another player to sing lead occasionally and stay where he is), but is there a law that says that drums must always be centered on stage?

 

Now before you go off to find and post a video with the drummer off to the side, don't bother. I'm sure it's happened before somewhere in the history stored on the Internet. But here's why I'm asking:

 

I occasionally work with an electric Celtic band with the typical setup of:

 

 

 

The problem is that there's always too much drums in the lead singer's vocal mic and the fiddle mic. It's easy to see why. The lead singer is right in front of the drummer, the fiddler is usually right next to him. They rarely play on stages that are deep enough so there can be much separation, and besides, they like working close. And with all that racket on stage and everyone wanting a lot of keyboard, fiddle, and vocal in their monitors, there's a lot of leakage from the monitors into the vocal mics as well (fiddle and guitar are sometimes a problem with feedback through the monitors, too, but that's a different issue).

 

So I was thinking that if the drums were off center (this would be stage left) so they were closer to the bass and pipes and not directly in line with the vocal mics, everything would sound better and everyone could hear better on stage. Even though we're friends (at least off stage) I'm hesitant to suggest this to the band since they always set up how they set up, with the drums in the center, lead vocal/guitar directly in front of the drums (I don't know how she stands all that racket), keyboard and fiddle stage right and bass and pipes stage left.

 

Does it seem like moving the drums maybe 6 feet off center, putting them maybe 45 degrees off axis from the lead vocal mic, would be of any use in getting better control over the stage volume? If nothing else, this would get the monitors that need to be loudest because they're near the loudest instruments further away from the live mics,

 

Should I or shouldn't I?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

The reason the drums go in the center by default is... then everyone gets an equal chance at onstage, visceral communication with the drummer. Hearing and feeling a hat, snare and kick can make all the difference between hacking your way through a show and making it something special. So monitors! Right?

 

Sure. But now they've got to be right. Otherwise, everyone's gonna just want those tubs center stage. We wanna hear them, we wanna feel them. And we want to be able to have him hear us was well to facilitate interaction. Stage center insures that most players will get what they need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'd feel the same way - you just don't want to mess with the band's vibe, even if it makes perfect sense from a recording perspective.

 

In your shoes, I might play them the vocal and fiddle tracks soloed with all the bleed and tell them you can improve this a lot by either retracking the vocal and fiddle back in the studio (if that's not really an option, at least you mentioned it so they'd be aware of what's involved) or try moving the drums and/or the vocalists around a bit to see if that would help.

 

And let them choose...maybe some sort of better but not best compromise would result?

 

nat whilk ii

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Last two concerts I have been to was Alice Cooper in Dec. of 2011 and his drummer was to the right of the stage (almost far right). Last night I went and saw "The Offspring" and their drummer was far left. Go figure !!! Here is a video someone shot last night of the layout.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

Like most part time bands, they don't perform enough to work on their stage setup and sound, and there are a few "floating" members. They rarely have the same drummer for two seasons and there are about three fiddlers that seem to rotate. it's amazing that they get there and get set up on time. Sound check is usually about three minutes "Can you hear the keyboard OK? Is your voice loud enough in the monitor? OK, let's go." They don't ask me if I can hear OK. ;)

 

Fortunately, they're all really good musicians and have good arrangements so the show usually OK. I just wish I could get it to sound better at the festivals where I usually end up with them on my stage.

 

Them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

You could:

a) Tip the singers mic upwards so he sings downward into it (assuming the ceiling isn't low enough to cause feedback problems), or possibly angle it to one side a bit

 

b) Put one of those acrylic cages around the drummer

 

or, best of all

 

c) Convince them to lower their stage volume

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

 

best of all

Convince them to lower their stage volume

 

 

How do you convince a drummer to play softer when you're the sound engineer? I'm supposed to solve those problems, not him. This group would be a good candidate for an in-ear system, and if this was a full time project for all of them, they'd probably embrace the technology. But when they play fewer than a dozen shows a year, and with some differing personnel, it's hard to think about that possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

For years a played with a band where we setup a large riser in the back the held both the drums and the keyboards so the drummer was just-to-the-right of center. Unless we played a room with a corner stage and then it was back to the traditional drums-in-the-center setup.

 

Night Ranger has traditionally done this setup which I always thought a pretty cool way to deal with a singing drummer.

 

3747498669_aed19b2cf3_o.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I just saw a case where drums were to the side, but I can't remember where. I believe it was a big act, and it was a youtube. IIRC, ELP used to do that, with Lake in the middle.

 

Drums in the center is the natural thing to do, but if the musicians are willing and it sounds good, then do it!

 

I always like it when guitar necks point away from center, so I usually play stage right. That also seems "right" because a grand piano would normally be on that side, to open to the audience but with the player facing the other players rather than away from it. For that silly reason, I like to put piano to the left in a studio mix, if there's no reason to do otherwise. But right now I'm in a band with a left-handed guitarist, so I set up on the opposite side. It wasn't ever discussed; we both just headed for our sides on the first gig and that was that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

How do you convince a drummer to play softer when you're the sound engineer? I'm supposed to solve those problems, not him. This group would be a good candidate for an in-ear system, and if this was a full time project for all of them, they'd probably embrace the technology. But when they play fewer than a dozen shows a year, and with some differing personnel, it's hard to think about that possibility.

 

 

It is never easy.

 

That's why I included other options...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The sound guy has to take charge, don't ask, explain the problem and the solution in a way that if they don't comply, their performance and the audiences' experience of the performance will be dreadfully compromised.

They don't know sound, that is why you are doing it.

Tell them what it is, its simple facts, it's not emotional. If they don't want to listen and you hate the experience with out repair, stop doing sound for them.

 

A drum cage, or drums to the side, hottest mikes farthest from drums.

Mute all mikes not in use religiously.

 

One question, are the vocal mikes 58's? If not, like if they are EV's or something hotter change to 58's and 57's get rid of any condensers and "stand" instrument mikes that aren't clip on. All that {censored} adds up with a loud drummer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

 

The sound guy has to take charge, don't ask, explain the problem and the solution in a way that if they don't comply, their performance and the audiences' experience of the performance will be dreadfully compromised.

 

 

All well and good if you're the band's regular hired sound guy. You were hired, hopefully, for your expertise and they'll probably take your advice.

 

I was really asking, not what I should do with this particular band, but whether there was any merit to the idea of putting the drummer off center for the reasons I explained, and if there would be any downside as far as the interaction between the drummer and the rest of the band. I'm not talking about putting him in a closet or back stage someplace (though there are times when I'd have liked to do that) but rather just put him so he wouldn't be directly behind the lead singer.

 

 

They don't know sound, that is why you are doing it.

Tell them what it is, its simple facts, it's not emotional. If they don't want to listen and you hate the experience with out repair, stop doing sound for them.

 

 

My position is that I'm the sound engineer at a festival. There's no real advance planning, you ask the band, when they show up, what they need and you try to give them what will work. Sometimes we get these choral groups with 20 members who say they need 20 microphones. I know the particular band that I was using as an example from past performances, plus a few of the members are long time friends. They'd consider any suggestion I made to them regarding sound, and I was just wondering if this particular suggestion would be worth while or would cause more trouble with something else than it would (if at all) help with the sound.

 

 

A drum cage, or drums to the side, hottest mikes farthest from drums. Mute all mikes not in use religiously.

 

 

Well, OK, have you had experience with moving drums to the side, or does that, to you as it did to me, just seem like it might help? A drum cage is out of the question due to the circumstances, and without knowing the band's material very well, it's risky to mute mics because you don't know when someone is going to start singing. The regular hired guns work with sound in rehearsal and they know the material, so they can mute unused mics.

 

 

One question, are the vocal mikes 58's? If not, like if they are EV's or something hotter change to 58's and 57's get rid of any condensers and "stand" instrument mikes that aren't clip on.

 

 

The vocal mics are almost always SM58s because that's what the sound company provides. I think that the lead singer would sound better on a different mic, but she's used to the SM58 so I haven't tried an alternative under fire. And when they rehearse, they don't rehearse with a sound system, so the only time they get sound is when they perform, which is fairly infrequently.

 

This isn't a rock band, but that doesn't mean they don't play loud.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Now before you go off to find and post a video with the drummer off to the side, don't bother.

 

 

Hey Mike, I was recently at some festival where the drummer of the support act was on the right hand side of the stage (from an audience perspective). The weird thing about it though, is that he was playing with his back toward the audience. I've never seen anything like it. I have a picture of it somewhere on my cell phone and will try to upload it here as soon as I can find the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

There is an acoustical reason to prefer the drummer in the center, at least for smaller venues without individual monitors for each musician. Centering the drums minimizes the differences in latency experienced by each musician. Say the stage is 20 feet wide and 2 other musicians are 8 feet to the right and left of the drummer. Each hears the beat delayed by about 8 ms, and can make mental adjustments pretty easily. If the drummer were off on one side, with one musician 8 feet from him and the other 16 feet from him, the 2 other musicians could still try to adjust to the delay, but it would be harder for the further musician and there would be more of a tendency toward unevenness in timing between the 3 musicians. Also the drummer would hear the backline timing of the further musician up to 32 ms late, depending on how successfully the other musician is adjusting for the timing. In some types of music this is not a big deal, but in some like salsa or rumba that uses super tight timing with many interlocking percussion parts, 10 or 15 ms can make an audible difference. We sometimes instinctively wind up playing with all the percussion players within 6 or 8 feet of each other for that reason.

 

Individual monitors could reduce or eliminate this issue, but many groups play without monitors, or without drums in their monitors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

 

There is an acoustical reason to prefer the drummer in the center, at least for smaller venues without individual monitors for each musician. Centering the drums minimizes the differences in latency experienced by each musician.

 

 

Are you theorizing here, or have you actually experienced this problem? Our brains are pretty good about putting things back in time. One guitar player might be 20 feet from his amplifier, another might be 10 feet from his, and yet they can still manage to play together if they're good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Are you theorizing here, or have you actually experienced this problem? Our brains are pretty good about putting things back in time. One guitar player might be 20 feet from his amplifier, another might be 10 feet from his, and yet they can still manage to play together if they're good.

 

 

Both. Alot depends on the type of music, how tight the timing has to be to sound right, location of the musicians in relation to a central "clock" musician (if there is one), how experienced the musicians are, room acoustics and whether the main percussion instruments are close mic'ed and in the monitors. Here is an example of a gig we did last year where the main timekeeper instrument (the guy playing the blue jam block) was off to one side. and the drummers were 10-20 feet away from him. Normally the percussionists are all within 6 feet of each other. This is Afrocuban rumba, and timing has to be very precise for it to sound right. I was the drummer all the way stage left (right of the screen after 3:16) furthest from the timekeeper and there were no functioning monitors. I play with the same guys all the time. The timing sounds good in this clip, but I remember having to concentrate more than usual to keep my part in time by playing just a little ahead of the beat. We make small mental adjustments for time of flight sound delays all the time, and for this particular style of music, in my experience 20 ms one way latency is pushing the limits of comfort.

 

At the other extreme, church choirs can be far from the pipe organ without noticeable latency issues. In an orchestra, often the percussion section is off to one side, but again the style of music usually does not call for quite as tight timing, plus everyone can clock visually off the conductor's baton.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

\\

For years a played with a band where we setup a large riser in the back the held both the drums and the keyboards so the drummer was just-to-the-right of center. Unless we played a room with a corner stage and then it was back to the traditional drums-in-the-center setup.


Night Ranger has traditionally done this setup which I always thought a pretty cool way to deal with a singing drummer.


3747498669_aed19b2cf3_o.jpg

 

Saw them tonight in Columbus, Ohio. Same set up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Are you theorizing here, or have you actually experienced this problem? Our brains are pretty good about putting things back in time. One guitar player might be 20 feet from his amplifier, another might be 10 feet from his, and yet they can still manage to play together if they're good.

 

 

Latency is definitely an issue, especially once you hit the 20 foot mark.I would assume monitors are in place for a festival venue.

Regarding the drums to the side theory, the main goal is to get the drums out of the hottest mic(s), the singers, having the drummer directly behind the singer is the main issue so move the mics or the sound that is leaking into them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

 

Regarding the drums to the side theory, the main goal is to get the drums out of the hottest mic(s), the singers, having the drummer directly behind the singer is the main issue so move the mics or the sound that is leaking into them.

 

 

That was my theory. I just wanted to know if it worked in practice, or if there's just so much noise on stage that moving the drums about the width of the drum set isn't really going to matter. Until this band starts traveling with their own stage setup (when pigs fly) they aren't going to have a setup like Night Ranger. No drum cage either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

How do you convince a drummer to play softer when you're the sound engineer? I'm supposed to solve those problems, not him. This group would be a good candidate for an in-ear system, and if this was a full time project for all of them, they'd probably embrace the technology. But when they play fewer than a dozen shows a year, and with some differing personnel, it's hard to think about that possibility.

 

 

 

You may not have enough horsepower, but if the drummer is causing the problem, he (or she) is the right one to solve it. Playing to the mix is a requirement, not a nice-to-have.

 

On your original question: I purposely set up in the back and to one side, usually stage left. All the technical reason why center stage works are on target, we just don't have those problems and I prefer to be in the background... and the monitors help us work out the issues. The resulting FOH mix is more important than any one musician/instrument.

 

-D44

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I think a chat with the band might be in order.

Let them know there is a problem and offer the solutions.

Usually asking a drummer to play quieter is not a solution as they tend to suck when they play out of their comfort zone, it is a learned skill and a hard one so someone isn't just gonna be able to do it and keep the groove right.

But other fixes may be avoiding any compression on the vocal mics, getting the singers to eat the mics as much as they can so you can turn the gain down, and getting the mics out of firing range of the drums as much as you can. But make the band aware there are issues with their balance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...