My Music Video Cover of "Black Market Daydreams" Is Mixed, Mastered, and Posted!

[Anderton]

Those who heard the reference mix will likely be shocked at how it turned out There are some interesting production techniques in there if anyone's interested.

 

[video=youtube;q9eb32yjGHo]

[rasputin1963]

Nice!!!! Bravo, Craig! Bravo, Saul T.

[Lee Knight]

that's GREAT!!!

[UstadKhanAli]

Wow. The overall treatment of the song is very nice!!! I like the quasi-psychedelic treatments and so forth and would be interested in hearing about the techniques used here!

 

Maybe it's just that it's different, but in the demo - the song that was recorded before you used a real drummer, etc. - the vocals were higher and sounded more urgent, and I miss that. Is this the reference mix that we are discussing? The vocals also seem a bit loud in the mix.

 

The other thing is that I don't get a sense of physicality from the bottom end, and in particular, the bass. I don't know why that is, but I've listened twice now at different volumes, and I just don't get that sense that the bottom end is "solid". Sorry. Overall, the vibe and presentation of the song is very good!

[blue2blue]

 

 

 

PS... Agree with Ken about the bass. I could follow it, melodically, but it seemed to lack punch.

[Anderton]

Wow. The overall treatment of the song is very nice!!! I like the quasi-psychedelic treatments and so forth and would be interested in hearing about the techniques used here! Maybe it's just that it's different, but in the demo - the song that was recorded before you used a real drummer, etc. - the vocals were higher and sounded more urgent, and I miss that. Is this the reference mix that we are discussing? The vocals also seem a bit loud in the mix. The other thing is that I don't get a sense of physicality from the bottom end, and in particular, the bass. I don't know why that is, but I've listened twice now at different volumes, and I just don't get that sense that the bottom end is "solid". Sorry. Overall, the vibe and presentation of the song is very good!

 

Maybe I'll do a "Ken Lee" mix that's more contemporary. I just felt it needed the 60s pop song treatment - light bass, heavy on vocals, more singer/songwriter approach because Mark's original song seemed to have that vibe. The only two instruments with bass components are the bass and the kick, pretty much everything else is midrange.

 

However, the bass has one bass line in the verse; in the chorus, there's a suboctave bass line added to the one that was played. That could be emphasized.

 

BTW the drum tracks are the same in the reference mix and the final mix, except for the processing. Also they're drum loops but played by a real person, hence the credit to Greg. The vocal tracks are the same too, I think what you're hearing as less urgency is that while it's still only a single vocal track (except the harmonies), I used ADT and upped the level of the double a bit...I wanted the vocals to be warmer. I did pitch correct some selected notes manually that I found grating, but that "out of control-ness" might be something you'd prefer

[Mark L]

You have a PM, Craig, so I won't waffle on too much

 

One word: Thanks!

[UstadKhanAli]

Maybe I'll do a "Ken Lee" mix that's more contemporary. I just felt it needed the 60s pop song treatment - light bass, heavy on vocals, more singer/songwriter approach because Mark's original song seemed to have that vibe. The only two instruments with bass components are the bass and the kick, pretty much everything else is midrange. However, the bass has one bass line in the verse; in the chorus, there's a suboctave bass line added to the one that was played. That could be emphasized. BTW the drum tracks are the same in the reference mix and the final mix, except for the processing. Also they're drum loops but played by a real person, hence the credit to Greg. The vocal tracks are the same too, I think what you're hearing as less urgency is that while it's still only a single vocal track (except the harmonies), I used ADT and upped the level of the double a bit...I wanted the vocals to be warmer. I did pitch correct some selected notes manually that I found grating, but that "out of control-ness" might be something you'd prefer

 

Alright, I made a mistake.

 

I thought this was the reference mix, but it's not:

 

[video=youtube;sWrTJz2OkMM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWrTJz2OkMM&feature=player_embedded#!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

So the above is probably a demo, but this is what I'm referring to with respect to the vocals, not your reference mix, which is this:

 

[video=youtube;krkdA1E-_MM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krkdA1E-_MM

 

I like the '60s vibe, and the light bass is okay. I'm okay with the volume of it and how it's mixed. But for some reason, it's missing a certain physicality, a sense of solidity. Same with the kick. I'm sorry I can't explain it better. I'll listen to the chorus again to see what you mean about the suboctave bass.

 

As for my comment on the vocals, since I wasn't sure what the reference mix was initially, what I was hearing in the demo or whatever that is (the first video I've posted) was that the vocals or sung out more and are more urgent and sung in a higher pitch. And I got used to that, so when I heard this, I was surprised at how low-key the vocals are. It doesn't have anything to do with what you did between the reference mix and the final mix, though, although I do think the vocals in the final mix are a little bit higher than I would have mixed them, but that's just subjectivity.

[UstadKhanAli]

I do really enjoy the overall vibe of the song and feel like it's really been enhanced artistically.

[Mark L]

 

 

 

That's my original version, Ken, complete with pics of a band I was in many moons ago...

[UstadKhanAli]

Right. Well, I got used to the vocals on that, so when I heard the lower, smoother vocals of the new one, I was a wee bit surprised!! Thanks, Mark.

[Mark L]

Right. Well, I got used to the vocals on that, so when I heard the lower, smoother vocals of the new one, I was a wee bit surprised!! Thanks, Mark.

 

You're welcome

 

I love Craig's version

[UstadKhanAli]

I do too, Mark. Well, it's sort of all of your versions, I suppose? Anyway, I love the more '60s quasi-psychedelic vibe, the treatment of the guitars, the keyboards, all of it. It really keeps the listener's interest going and enhances the statement of the song.

 

Thanks for your comment of the photo on my Facebook photography page, by the way!

[Mark L]

I've already told Craig this - I really like the vid

 

It's quite flattering when someone not only covers one of your songs, but also takes the time to produce a video to accompany it

[Anderton]

As for my comment on the vocals, since I wasn't sure what the reference mix was initially, what I was hearing in the demo or whatever that is (the first video I've posted) was that the vocals or sung out more and are more urgent and sung in a higher pitch. And I got used to that, so when I heard this, I was surprised at how low-key the vocals are.

 

Very perceptive, Dr. Lee!

 

IIRC Mark did it in the key of A, and I couldn't sing that high, so I ended up transposing it down to E - pretty much as far away from the original pitch center as possible, without inventing a new kind of scale

 

But this brings up an interesting point I had not considered while recording it - how that drastic a key change alters the character of the song. It's not like my vocals ended up in Barry White-land, but vocals that are lower in pitch are more suited to a mellower treatment, and that mood was superimposed on the song. I was not thinking of this at the time, but looking back in light of your comment, that initial key change set the tone for the rest of the recording.

 

OTOH if I HAD been able to sing in the original key, the vibe would likely have been similar to Mark's original. I have a policy of not doing a cover unless it offers a different take of a song, preferably a radically different take. I don't know if I'd consider my version to be radically different, but Mark said he'd never thought of giving his song the same kind of treatment I did, so at least I accomplished my goal of offering an alternative version instead of a "remake."

 

It seems logical this might also work in reverse - if you wanted to make a cover more "rock and roll," jack the key center up a semitone or two...or three.

 

I went back and listened to the bass/kick component. I have to admit that was the sound I wanted, more of a sinewavy-bass and a kick that was fairly "broad" rather than tight. This wasn't necessarily to be slavish to the 60s ethic, but more to accomplish the same goal a lot of those recordings did - emphasize the vocals and guitars (although I did kind of work in a bit of a Keith Moon vibe in some parts with Greg's fills ).

 

Regardless, I think it would be fun to try doing a "contemporary" mix and seeing how that plays out.

 

Finally...the lead guitar at the end was specifically because Electrochrisso mentioned in a post regarding the reference mix that he thought a lead would sound cool. He was right, but I found there really wasn't any space to put it earlier in the song because the lyrics are pretty dense - there's not a lot of room for other characters.

 

Regarding vocals, you might find this interesting/helpful. I paid particular attention to the stereo placement; for example the Kontakt choir started off on the right, but shifted to the left when the "human harmonies" came in. The guitar lead was panned left because even though the main guitar was left, I didn't want it to interfere with the harmonies. Basically everything was placed (and spread in stereo) to emphasize the vocals, so actually, the vocal levels themselves aren't that loud...but the mix carves out lots of space for them. If you have a program where you can put the song in mono, you'll hear the vocals fall back into a more subdued zone. This is why I start off mixes in mono, it gives me a true sense of levels, then I can use the stereo to guide the balance in different directions.

[Anderton]

You're welcome I love Craig's version

 

I had three reasons for doing that song.

 

First, I love the original and while I knew I couldn't duplicate its magic, I did want to see if I could create some magic of my own. The song itself has a sort of built-in magic, so you really can't go wrong. I think there are other ways it could be treated that would be equally valid. The fact that Mark enjoys my version is frankly the best reaction possible.

 

Second, Mark has referred to self-confidence issues so I wanted to throw one of his songs back at him from a different standpoint so he would be separated from the person who wrote the song to a person listening to the song. While I was hoping he'd think "Wow, Craig did a good job," I was more hoping he'd think "Damn, Craig is right...that's a really good song!!"

 

Third, I wanted to see if I was good enough to create something valid based on something that was already valid

 

Finally, a fourth reason came up while doing the song: Cakewalk has wanted me to do a "Mixing and Mastering" video, and as I did the whole thing in Sonar and used lots of different techniques, I realized it would be a great basis to take people through from the reference mix to the final mix, and how I got there. And it would get Mark some more publicity so he can have more people telling him "hey dude, you write good songs."

 

The video was something that I just thought needed to be done.

[Mark L]

I'm finding all this quite overwhelming

 

I'm just some dick-head delivery-driver from Bolton who drinks too much cider, writes cheesy pop songs and does his best to record them on {censored}e equipment. I've never had my songs analysed like this before. I'm truly flattered but also somewhat freaked-out, to be honest

 

Having said that, I'm enjoying this insane ride at the moment! It will eventually end in tears. It always does. But thanks for the attention. My 15 minutes of fame are almost up, I reckon

 

Time for bed now. I'm drunk and morose. Good night

[nat whilk II]

What fun to hear all this!

 

Craig's version actually communicates a bit of an 80s vibe to me - a hint of Bowie, even echoes just faintly of Thomas Dolby's first album tune Flying North. It's the vocals more than anything I think that raises these resonances for me. Although Bowie had productions that were kinda similar here and there, too.

 

Mark's tight, mid-rangy production is pure sing/yell along in the car stuff -

 

We should have a "Cover Your Nads" contest, ya know?

 

nat whilk ii

[temnov]

I like it, I think Nat is right about vibe of 80s, Bowie especially.

 

That reminds me something, Craig! It's been a while, where is my trance???

 

[timmit65]

Great job, Craig! Really cool song, too.

[Anderton]

I like it, I think Nat is right about vibe of 80s, Bowie especially. That reminds me something, Craig! It's been a while, where is my trance???

 

Well as you probably know, with me no project serves just one purpose

 

I have all the CMC controllers for Cubase here now, so your song will end up as "So here's how the CMC controllers work with a real-world project" project. This needs to happen before my Cubase NFR expires, so I'll be working on it pretty soon.

[Anderton]

I'm finding all this quite overwhelming

 

Easy solution: Write crappy songs, no one will want to cover them, no attention, no being overwhelmed!

 

I'm just some dick-head delivery-driver from Bolton who drinks too much cider, writes cheesy pop songs and does his best to record them on {censored}e equipment. I've never had my songs analysed like this before. I'm truly flattered but also somewhat freaked-out, to be honest

 

Good, you should be. You will have to confront the fact that regardless of being a "dick-head delivery-driver from Bolton," for whatever reason you write catchy songs that bring people pleasure. Now, I admit it would be considerably cooler if you had magical powers that could turn the entire planet into a loving environment where all people respected each other, but you don't. So, I'll settle for catchy songs.

 

Besides, I've gotten great reviews and negative reviews, some people love my music, some people hate it. It's the same music regardless, so you really have no control over how people react to it. Nor does it really matter.

 

Having said that, I'm enjoying this insane ride at the moment! It will eventually end in tears. It always does. But thanks for the attention. My 15 minutes of fame are almost up, I reckon

 

It's been a lot more than 15 minutes, if you do the math from the time Ernest mastered your song to the present. BMD is a song with "legs."

 

What's more. YOU made the mistake of sending me the "boxed set," and there are some other songs in there that interest me...

 

Time for bed now. I'm drunk and morose. Good night

 

Don't take it so seriously. This wasn't some kind of serious project for me, it was great fun to record that song, and the fact that you like my version is frankly very flattering to me. Sometimes I sense that you almost feel guilty you have a particular talent, but really, everyone's good at something. You just happen to be good at writing catchy songs and performing them in a genuine, endearing way. Just lighten up and enjoy it, we do.

[Anderton]

What fun to hear all this! Craig's version actually communicates a bit of an 80s vibe to me - a hint of Bowie, even echoes just faintly of Thomas Dolby's first album tune Flying North. It's the vocals more than anything I think that raises these resonances for me. Although Bowie had productions that were kinda similar here and there, too.

 

Bowie, Dolby, and David Byrne comparisons...I'll take it! Although I sounded like that before they were born . The singer I've been compared to the most often is Roger McGuinn from the Byrds, and I can hear some of that as well.

 

Mark's tight, mid-rangy production is pure sing/yell along in the car stuff -

 

To me it's sort of like intelligent pop punk, if that makes sense. It has the energy of punk, but adds an overlay of cleverness that most punk didn't have, and more sophistication in the songwriting that's more pop.

 

We should have a "Cover Your Nads" contest, ya know?

 

One of the COOLEST projects I've ever been involved with also had its roots in Sound, Studio, and Stage. I wrote a book called Cubase SX Mixing and Mastering, and an ECP (Extremely Cool Person) named Bunny Knutson organized a mixing event around an excellent song by a fellow named George Toledo III (hmmm, I should do a cover version of it). There were participants from Europe and North America, ranging from Grammy award winners and engineers with platinum albums to hobbyists who had gotten recently into recording - and also including the most excellent Ken Lee and Lee Flier (yes, THE Ken Lee and Lee Flier). It was absolutely stellar to hear everyone's take on this particular song, and it showed how even starting with the same collection of tracks there could be wildly varying results depending on the person doing the mix.

 

Maybe we should subject Dr. Nads to a similar treatment. Why settle for freaking him out when we could TOTALLY freak him out?

[UstadKhanAli]

Very perceptive, Dr. Lee! IIRC Mark did it in the key of A, and I couldn't sing that high, so I ended up transposing it down to E - pretty much as far away from the original pitch center as possible, without inventing a new kind of scale But this brings up an interesting point I had not considered while recording it - how that drastic a key change alters the character of the song. It's not like my vocals ended up in Barry White-land, but vocals that are lower in pitch are more suited to a mellower treatment, and that mood was superimposed on the song. I was not thinking of this at the time, but looking back in light of your comment, that initial key change set the tone for the rest of the recording.

 

Interesting point.

 

I did recognize right away that there had been some sort of key change as well, and it really does change the whole feel.

 

I'm doing okay with my ear today. Between this and the "guess the reverb" thing, where I've demonstrated, if nothing else, that I have sickeningly expensive tastes.

 

 

Regarding vocals, you might find this interesting/helpful. I paid particular attention to the stereo placement; for example the Kontakt choir started off on the right, but shifted to the left when the "human harmonies" came in. The guitar lead was panned left because even though the main guitar was left, I didn't want it to interfere with the harmonies. Basically everything was placed (and spread in stereo) to emphasize the vocals, so actually, the vocal levels themselves aren't that loud...but the mix carves out lots of space for them. If you have a program where you can put the song in mono, you'll hear the vocals fall back into a more subdued zone. This is why I start off mixes in mono, it gives me a true sense of levels, then I can use the stereo to guide the balance in different directions.

 

One of my favorite things about the mix/arrangement was the panning.

 

And whooops, I mistakenly chopped out your comments about the bass/kick component, so I'll pop it back in here:

 

I went back and listened to the bass/kick component. I have to admit that was the sound I wanted, more of a sinewavy-bass and a kick that was fairly "broad" rather than tight. This wasn't necessarily to be slavish to the 60s ethic, but more to accomplish the same goal a lot of those recordings did - emphasize the vocals and guitars (although I did kind of work in a bit of a Keith Moon vibe in some parts with Greg's fills . Regardless, I think it would be fun to try doing a "contemporary" mix and seeing how that plays out.

 

That'd be interesting to hear a more "contemporary" version and see whether I like the bottom end more or how it would change the vibe of the song.

 

I like the Keith Moon-like fills. That added a lot.

 

I like Keith Moon.

 

Lee Flier and her friends do this {censored}ing AMAZING version of "Love Reign O'er Me" (one of my favorite Who songs) that just nails the Who vibe, and the drummer channels Keith Moon. Dayam.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

One of the COOLEST projects I've ever been involved with also had its roots in Sound, Studio, and Stage. I wrote a book called Cubase SX Mixing and Mastering , and an ECP (Extremely Cool Person) named Bunny Knutson organized a mixing event around an excellent song by a fellow named George Toledo III (hmmm, I should do a cover version of it). There were participants from Europe and North America, ranging from Grammy award winners and engineers with platinum albums to hobbyists who had gotten recently into recording - and also including the most excellent Ken Lee and Lee Flier (yes, THE Ken Lee and Lee Flier). It was absolutely stellar to hear everyone's take on this particular song, and it showed how even starting with the same collection of tracks there could be wildly varying results depending on the person doing the mix. Maybe we should subject Dr. Nads to a similar treatment. Why settle for freaking him out when we could TOTALLY freak him out?

 

 

I liked that project, although I'm embarrassed about my contribution. I was still mixing on analog tape and a mixing board. I had just gotten Pro Tools 5.1 LE. And - you guessed it - that was the very very first mix I ever did. I didn't even know how to operate Pro Tools at that point, so I can't stand my mix.

 

But it was fun.

 

I would love to participate in a project where we re-mixed a Saul T. Nads tune, such as this one, now that I actually know how to use a DAW.

 

Jeeez. I keep saying I'm gonna turn in for the evening, but I keep posting....