Do I need a limiter for my keys?

[keysdude]

I play keyboards in a rock band. I hear murmurs about the different sounds having too much level difference. I have tried to match volumes in the patches I use, but there still seems to be a problem. Would a limiter on my end have too much affect on the sound quality?

[JeffLearman]

My suggestion is to learn to get better control of your volume and dynamics, than to use a tool to fix the problem.

 

A limiter can help, but at a cost. When it kicks in, it will change the nature of the sound. However, if used as a "trigger guard" sort of safety mechanism, well, it's better to hit limiting than to simply be too loud.

 

Here's an example of a problem I have when using compressors or limiters on keyboards. If I hold a chord and play a note, if compression or limiting kicks in, the chord will drop dramatically in volume when I play the note. If I want that, cool; if I don't, not cool. I usually don't, especially on piano, where it sounds unnatural. (On electric guitar, I used to like this and used it a lot. I don't now only because my style has changed, not due to any dislike for that type of effect.)

 

My suggestion: have someone help and take notes as to which patches are too loud and which are too soft. Adjust the patch volumes, rinse, and repeat.

 

Another issue is this: when you're adjusting patch levels, are you listening through a PA similar to what you use live (or your monitor rig)? Or are you using headphones or a different studio rig? Different rigs can emphasize different frequencies differently (i.e., some are flat, others not so much) and that can affect the perceived volume quite a bit. When patch-leveling, use as close as possible to your live rig.

[BlueGreene]

It isn't a end all solution but you could plug your rig into a mixer and use the PLF switch and keep an eye on the meter. That's what I did with my guitar rig and it worked pretty good across a bunch of systems.

[Anderton]

I think the limiter might be a good idea, depending on the other bandmates. If the guitarist is using distortion, then he/she/it is producing sounds with a very high average level. Bass though an amp generally produces high average levels as well. Your keyboards are probably producing a much more balanced sound, with fairly high peaks and lower average levels. Therefore, when you set levels to accommodate the peaks, the average level is much softer.

 

A limiter will bring down the peaks so you can obtain a higher average level. Quite a few keyboards these days include effects at the output; see if you can add some limiting, and whether that helps.

 

Of course if you were playing in a jazz ensemble, this would be terrible advice because then everyone else would sound soft compared to you

[keysdude]

Thanks to all (3) for your input. I thought I had it under control using BlueGreene's method of watching the LEDs on my mixer. I guess I still have some issues, and I think using a different (home) system to check levels is partly to blame, as Jeff suggests. I really just need to smooth out the peaks (such as one high piano note in an otherwise mid-range comp) so that might work for what I need. I use two Korg Tritons; a classic and an LE, so I will see what the limiting effect can do.

[Anderton]

Thanks to all (3) for your input.

 

We specialize in quality, not quantity

[BlueGreene]

DBX has a great white paper on Compression. Perhaps you've already looked at it.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

My suggestion is to learn to get better control of your volume and dynamics, than to use a tool to fix the problem. My suggestion: have someone help and take notes as to which patches are too loud and which are too soft. Adjust the patch volumes, rinse, and repeat.

 

 

That's how I have always done it. It definitely took a bit of work to adjust patch volumes, but it was worth it. I tweaked them during rehearsal. But you could use some gentle compression to help even it out a bit if you've tried that and it's still not working for you for whatever reason.

[onelife]

A volume pedal may help identify what patches need to be adjusted as well as getting things under control until you can make the final adjustments.

[Lee Knight]

I think the limiter might be a good idea, depending on the other bandmates. If the guitarist is using distortion, then he/she/it is producing sounds with a very high average level. Bass though an amp generally produces high average levels as well. Your keyboards are probably producing a much more balanced sound, with fairly high peaks and lower average levels. Therefore, when you set levels to accommodate the peaks, the average level is much softer. A limiter will bring down the peaks so you can obtain a higher average level. Quite a few keyboards these days include effects at the output; see if you can add some limiting, and whether that helps. Of course if you were playing in a jazz ensemble, this would be terrible advice because then everyone else would sound soft compared to you

 

I had a similar thought, with one addition. Use a limiter with a very clear gain reduction meter. As you play, you are most likely not really going to like the effect of the limiter. Your GR meter is letting you know "Dude! You're attenuating me by 10dB! No wonder I sound like crap!". Meanwhile other sounds go untouched. So you know to go in a reduce that one patch by a certain amount. Continuing forward, you have consistent feedback as to what is really happening with your levels, and how to over time even them out. AND... you're protected.

 

The old, cheap Alesis MicroLimiter would be perfect for this. And it's easy to bypass when it's just wrestling with you the whole night.

[LordBTY]

It depends why you're doing it/ when you're doing it in the song. Tbh, it seems odd that you'd need a limiter for an electronic instrument unless you're really wanting to give it some cut with a limiter.

 

This might be something to do with the resonance of whatever sounds you're using, but it could also be to do with your use of dynamics - it's always an option to turn off touch keys if the latter is true. In the the case of the former, it might be a compositional and/or timbre issue.

 

Are the keys cutting over the guitar because you're playing in a higher octave or more resonant frequency? Is it clashing with the other instruments?

 

This is generally why bands stick to bass, guitar, drums and vox - it avoids complications.

[Anderton]

...but it could also be to do with your use of dynamics - it's always an option to turn off touch keys if the latter is true.

 

You bring up a very valid point that suggests a simple solution: Change the keyboard's velocity curve! Choose one that's not linear, but "weights" softer sounds to have higher velocities. It would accomplish much of the same effect as a limiter, but without the audible artifacts.

 

Good one, LordBTY

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Are the keys cutting over the guitar because you're playing in a higher octave or more resonant frequency? Is it clashing with the other instruments?

 

 

Keyboards can suck up giant swathes of the frequency spectrum in a hurry, and it's often on keyboardists to be really cognizant of where they are playing, what kind of sound they are using, and so forth, and to be really aware of the arrangement.