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How would you mix a horn section?


JeffLearman

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My hobby soul band just finished recording rhythm tracks in a friend's hobby studio, for a band demo for getting gigs, as well as a little keepsake for us when we're all old(er) and gray(er). I want the mix to sound reasonably lifelike and straightforward.

 

I'm interested in everyone's opinions on how to plan the soundstage, which I hope to keep consistent in all the cuts (more or less). Our setup is guitarist (who's a lefty and is always plays on house left), me on keyboards or 2nd guitar (house right), plus bass, drums, trumpet, sax, and trombone.

 

Guitar is mono for now, but will probably get a little stereo juice to "room it up" -- but not much. Keyboards are stereo, but hard panned with 9dB drop on the left side, to put it about 45 degrees to the right. This avoids the "20-ft-wide piano" while retaining the stereo ambience. Some organ tracks are panned a little less far, to get the Leslie bouncing off the opposite wall (so to speak).

 

As usual, kick and snare will be nearly centered, with stereo overheads hard panned. Bass will be center, along with lead vocals. All that's good. The guitar and keyboards balance well enough (IMHO, but let me know if you disagree).

 

The question (a new one, for me) is what to do with the horns. On the quick mixes, I've put trumpet center, sax left, and trombone right, not panned quite as much as keys and guitar.

 

For an instrumental like Pick Up The Pieces, that horn spread should work fine (maybe swapping trombone and sax). But for tunes with vocals ... how does one place the horns without making the mix terribly unbalanced? On some tunes there will be harmony vocals that could balance the horns.

 

If you're interested in hearing them, quick mixes are at http://learjeff.net/Platform/demo . These are all mixed the same, no master compression, no FX, no EQ, and no per-song level fine-tuning, even though some players might be louder or softer in various tunes.

 

Thanks -- appreciate your input!

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Some of it depends on how the parts were tracked.

Stereo placement isnt all there is to mixing. You have frequency content and reverb too.

You should be able to place all instruments placed mono center without masking if they are properly

EQed to occupy their own proper frequency width. Thats the key too all good mixes. Reverb adds depth to parts

and stereo panning can be used after the mono mix works well.

 

For specific cover songs, you can always import a copy of the actual tune into the mix at the same

sample rate. If your recording is 24/48 for example, upsample the copy from MP3 or 16/44.1 to 24/48 and import it

to a stereo track. Then you can bring up one instrument at a time and match it to the original and adjust stereo

placement, EQing, reverb, compression etc.

 

The tempo and pitch may be off, but you are only doing an A/B comparison to get something close to the original.

Then mute the commercial track and unmute your tracks and it should be fairly close to the

original "if" your pand plays it close to the original. If not you take creative liscence and arrange the parts the

best they can fit given the talent and tracking involved. You learn by copying mixing techniques the same way

as you learn other peoples songs until you have enough techniques under your belt to use the tools with your

own creativity added.

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Panning wise, having seen our horn section play many times, I just replicate what they do live. The entire horn section is on one side of the stage, the keys being on the opposite side since the keyboardist lays out some pretty dense jam. Within stage left I pan the trombone in the center and the trumpet and sax to opposite sides to make sure they can both be heard clearly.

 

So, in absolute terms the trumpet is 100% right, the trombone is 75% right, the sax is centered.

 

YMMV, of course.

 

Terry D.

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I'm game to try different things but here, since it's not an instrumental horn band, I would first try group them tightly and concentrate on levels and riding the note swells etc and pan somewhere in between off-center and hard either way. I might use a stereo delay or reverb and give the horns some light spread that way (that you would have to really listen for...subtle) but I would want the brass section punchy and together. If I had a rhodes or other key, I might pan that opposite. I am a sucker for ping pong tremelo on a Rhodes, same for I love to ride the spin speed on a Leslie if I can.

 

I would want my primary rhythm guitar tight as a gnats ass if it was funky choppy part, compressed and placed off center but only slightly and if there is a rakey chorusy chordal type guitar as well, I would stereo that. I might experiment spreading the backing vox or group them and place them opposite.

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Some of it depends on how the parts were tracked.

Stereo placement isnt all there is to mixing. You have frequency content and reverb too.

You should be able to place all instruments placed mono center without masking if they are properly

EQed to occupy their own proper frequency width. Thats the key too all good mixes. Reverb adds depth to parts

and stereo panning can be used after the mono mix works well.

Thanks, but you're preaching to the choir on that! I'm a big advocate of doing a lot of mixing in mono: a good mix should have clear separation and definition in mono without relying on spatial tricks -- and then add the stereo imagery to enhance the mix, rather than being necessary.

 

 

For specific cover songs, you can always import a copy of the actual tune into the mix at the same

sample rate. If your recording is 24/48 for example, upsample the copy from MP3 or 16/44.1 to 24/48 and import it

to a stereo track. Then you can bring up one instrument at a time and match it to the original and adjust stereo

placement, EQing, reverb, compression etc.

I don't want to replicate the 60's stereo mixes of these classics! We've learned better since then. :-)

 

Anyway, I'm not asking for a mixing tutorial. I've been recording and mixing since the 70's. Just what folks like to do with horn sections, to balance things out.

 

Thanks in any case. I wholeheartedly agree with your suggestions.

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Panning wise, having seen our horn section play many times, I just replicate what they do live. The entire horn section is on one side of the stage, the keys being on the opposite side since the keyboardist lays out some pretty dense jam. Within stage left I pan the trombone in the center and the trumpet and sax to opposite sides to make sure they can both be heard clearly.


So, in absolute terms the trumpet is 100% right, the trombone is 75% right, the sax is centered.

Hi guy!

 

I hate to have any mono track panned full to one side, since it would be lost to anyone too close to the opposite side, but I get the drift. Live, we usually have the horn section on the guitar side, because we like the bass player between me and the drums -- he's also a lead vocalist -- and so there's more room over there. But we've also played deep rather than wide stages where the horns were in front of me.

 

But I'm sure you (and Huh) are right that the horns should be together as a group, not spread way across the soundstage. So I guess it's just whether to put them in front of guitar or keys. I'll probably let the trombone player (who will be doing a lot of the mixing) take his pick.

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Panning wise, having seen our horn section play many times, I just replicate what they do live. The entire horn section is on one side of the stage, the keys being on the opposite side since the keyboardist lays out some pretty dense jam. Within stage left I pan the trombone in the center and the trumpet and sax to opposite sides to make sure they can both be heard clearly.


So, in absolute terms the trumpet is 100% right, the trombone is 75% right, the sax is centered.


YMMV, of course.


Terry D.

With bands that gig a lot, they've typically (hopefully, at any rate) evolved their arrangements to the point where you could pretty much just capture a live performance and it would be 'pre-mixed.'

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With bands that gig a lot, they've typically (hopefully, at any rate) evolved their arrangements to the point where you could pretty much just capture a live performance and it would be 'pre-mixed.'

True dat.

 

We're more of a band that skips a lot of practices and has a few gigs a year. :lol:

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With bands that gig a lot, they've typically (hopefully, at any rate) evolved their arrangements to the point where you could pretty much just capture a live performance and it would be 'pre-mixed.'

 

 

"Our" horn section is a group of guys who play out a lot (they just did an episode of "Dancing With The Stars") so I get what I get from them when they decide to send it. They usually give me about 12 tracks with each instrument on a separate track, several options. I'm sure their mix (as they used to give me) would probably be better than mine as they have quite a studio and do tracks for people all over the world.

 

I just try to copy the mix they get when I hear them live in Austin.

 

Terry D.

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Panning wise, having seen our horn section play many times, I just replicate what they do live. The entire horn section is on one side of the stage, the keys being on the opposite side since the keyboardist lays out some pretty dense jam. Within stage left I pan the trombone in the center and the trumpet and sax to opposite sides to make sure they can both be heard clearly.


So, in absolute terms the trumpet is 100% right, the trombone is 75% right, the sax is centered.


YMMV, of course.


Terry D.

 

 

Spot on! :-)

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It depends a lot on the context of the music, the style of music and the nature of the other players. In Mr. Knobs situation, with the full sounding keyboardist, it may make sense to balance the horns against the keyboardist with panning. But if it was the Brecker Bros., a band where the horns were the key element of the music, that would not be appropriate.

 

This is very obvious and probably not necessary to say to an experienced mixer, but I would recommend listening to mixes you like from bands as similar to yours as you can find, and copying what they do.

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I hacked together a quick example of what I mean by dense keys with dense horns:

 

Horn / B3 Clip

 

Just a quick mix on my little computer speakers, no fx, no volume envelopes, etc, but I think you'll get the idea of the difficulty of panning a rhodes, B3/leslie, and four horns from this clip. I left out the bass guitar and vocals and some aux percussion so the example would be clearer.

 

When the keys are more percussive I like to have the horn guys do two takes and split the takes wide, putting the keys more in the middle. B3 kinda steps on everything hence the example here.

 

As always, YMMV. ;)

 

Terry D.

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What I tend to do is treat the horns as a stereo pair. I`m not really a fan of individual micing on horns. Move the guys arouind while tracking to get the balance and spread needed. A Blumlien works great for this but all the other usual suspects (XY, ORTF, etc.) work, sound different, and are great depending on your needs. Then...

 

I balance the panning (mics 1 and 2) as needed. Sometime fully opening the the two mics does the trick naturally. Of course, with a full, live sounding band, that may not work. So... just as I may have recorded a B3 in stereo and folded that in to 100%L / 0%R (or tighter, or wider), I might do the horns 0%L / 100%R (tighter or wider). Mono point sources like EG, etc, can then be placed inside of those panaramas. Add some room to that guitar and it sounds like a stage. Add a little more room to the horns, on top of those natural ERs picked up by the Blumlien, and the horns are standing behind the guitarist.

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What I tend to do is treat the horns as a stereo pair. I`m not really a fan of individual micing on horns. Move the guys arouind while tracking to get the balance and spread needed. A Blumlien works great for this but all the other usual suspects (XY, ORTF, etc.) work, sound different, and are great depending on your needs. Then...


I balance the panning (mics 1 and 2) as needed. Sometime fully opening the the two mics does the trick naturally. Of course, with a full, live sounding band, that may not work. So... just as I may have recorded a B3 in stereo and folded that in to 100%L / 0%R (or tighter, or wider), I might do the horns 0%L / 100%R (tighter or wider). Mono point sources like EG, etc, can then be placed inside of those panaramas. Add some room to that guitar and it sounds like a stage. Add a little more room to the horns, on top of those natural ERs picked up by the Blumlien, and the horns are standing behind the guitarist.

 

I always mic the B3 / Leslie top and bottom, but I never know what to do with the result. The bottom is mostly mud in the mix until the keyboardist does some god awful loud sweep from low to high that might or might not be important in the mix. I tend to set the bottom mic pad very low (to avoid the dreaded over in a good take) and when I use the bottom mic track I usually have to roll off most of the low end to make it sit in the mix with the bass guitar.

 

Doesn't seem to be much purpose using the upper and lower b3 mics in stereo.

 

What do you guys do with a Leslie track? :confused:

 

Terry D.

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I always mic the B3 / Leslie top and bottom, but I never know what to do with the result. The bottom is mostly mud in the mix until the keyboardist does some god awful loud sweep from low to high that might or might not be important in the mix. I tend to set the bottom mic pad very low (to avoid the dreaded over in a good take) and when I use the bottom mic track I usually have to roll off most of the low end to make it sit in the mix with the bass guitar.


Doesn't seem to be much purpose using the upper and lower b3 mics in stereo.


What do you guys do with a Leslie track?
:confused:

Terry D.

 

Mic the rotating horn in stereo and spread. Put the bass mic between the panning of the upper stereo pair. 3 mics total. I tend to "balance pan" the stereo uppers over to one side as needed.

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I agree, Lee, thanks. The tracks are already done, so recording horns with a stereo pair isn't an option now -- and we wouldn't have wanted to simply because we knew we'd want to do punch-ins with individual horn parts. We also have some swells to balance out, etc. With a more pro-level horn section (or even a better-rehearsed one), stereo-pair miking would be great. I much prefer that sound to panning individual horn mics.

 

With a Leslie stereo pair, I definitely hard pan and use stereo track balance, but with a horn section stereo pair, I'd not use hard panning because that would diminish one of the horns too much. Instead I'd pan one side to center and the other to the right or left. Perhaps that's what you mean by "balance pan", but that's not the method I'd use for Leslie.

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Mic the rotating horn in stereo and spread. Put the bass mic between the panning of the upper stereo pair. 3 mics total. I tend to "balance pan" the stereo uppers over to one side as needed.

 

This is a good idea. I'll try it next time I record a Leslie. :)

 

Terry D.

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My hobby soul band just finished recording rhythm tracks in a friend's hobby studio, for a band demo for getting gigs, as well as a little keepsake for us when we're all old(er) and gray(er). I want the mix to sound reasonably lifelike and straightforward.


I'm interested in everyone's opinions on how to plan the soundstage, which I hope to keep consistent in all the cuts (more or less). Our setup is guitarist (who's a lefty and is always plays on house left), me on keyboards or 2nd guitar (house right), plus bass, drums, trumpet, sax, and trombone.


Guitar is mono for now, but will probably get a little stereo juice to "room it up" -- but not much. Keyboards are stereo, but hard panned with 9dB drop on the left side, to put it about 45 degrees to the right. This avoids the "20-ft-wide piano" while retaining the stereo ambience. Some organ tracks are panned a little less far, to get the Leslie bouncing off the opposite wall (so to speak).


As usual, kick and snare will be nearly centered, with stereo overheads hard panned. Bass will be center, along with lead vocals. All that's good. The guitar and keyboards balance well enough (IMHO, but let me know if you disagree).


The question (a new one, for me) is what to do with the horns. On the quick mixes, I've put trumpet center, sax left, and trombone right, not panned quite as much as keys and guitar.


For an instrumental like Pick Up The Pieces, that horn spread should work fine (maybe swapping trombone and sax). But for tunes with vocals ... how does one place the horns without making the mix terribly unbalanced? On some tunes there will be harmony vocals that could balance the horns.


If you're interested in hearing them, quick mixes are at
. These are all mixed the same, no master compression, no FX, no EQ, and no per-song level fine-tuning, even though some players might be louder or softer in various tunes.


Thanks -- appreciate your input!

 

 

Generally speaking:

 

I'd pan them out.

 

Then I'd mix them so they balanced well with each other,

then assign them to a submix stem and use a 9 mS pre-delay on it, so they sound like they're a little bit towards backstage.

 

Then adjust that to balance with the other instruments. If they walk on any other instruments spectrally, I'd feed ducking signals from individual horn tracks to cue a compressor following a linear-phase EQ to gently dip the offending freqs.

 

Sorry, I didn't listen to the tracks - - my main squeeze is waiting for me to come watch a movie with her....

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