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Do You Use Hardware Controllers or Analog Mixers for Mixing? If Not, Why Not?


Anderton

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When I give seminars and ask how many people mix with a mouse, I'm surprised that it's almost always well over 50%. I've been doing a fair amount of mixing lately using the V-Studio control surface with Sonar, and every time I do, it reminds about how much more fluid the mixing session goes with a dedicated control surface.

So how many are using control surfaces, and if so, which ones? Any Euphonix Artist Series fans out there?

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I use a 32 ch. Neotek Elite II; previously I used a Mackie DXB. I was never really comfortable "in the box". I like having dedicated controls I can reach for on the fly, without the distraction of looking at a screen, finding the right control, making sure it's active etc. On a console or control surface I'm familiar with, I can operate almost entirely by feel.

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I'm now taking hold of and caressing a woman's - , er, using a mouse. I was using Digi002's controller, but it broke, and despite repeated attempts to get the !@%#! piece of !$%! fixed, I couldn't do it, so I sold it for parts. I would like to mix with a controller again, but I do really have some serious space issues.

I miss the tactile quality and control of mixing with a mixer, though. Hopefully someday I can get this going again.

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Quote Originally Posted by UstadKhanAli View Post
I would like to mix with a controller again, but I do really have some serious space issues.
Hmmm...which brings up an interesting follow-up question: If you're not using a controller, is it a space issue, cost issue, compatibility issue, or do you just not feel the need?

Ken - have you thought of something like the FaderPort or AlphaTrack as a potential solution?
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Quote Originally Posted by sailorman

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I use an MCU. When I'm using Sony Vegas, I find myself hitting keys on the MCU expecting it to reactconfused.gif . Then remembering and going to the mouse. Can't imagine having to go the mouse route again for Sonar.

 

What problems are you having with Vegas? It's MCU compatible for transport and audio functions...can't control the video tracks, though.
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I suppose it depends on the kind of mixing one does, I hardly ever moved the sliders around much, because of the type of lazy mixing I do, and really wanted one of those motorised mixers to do all the work for me.
I like to use automation a lot, so doing it all with the mouse suits me just fine, and if the mouse breaks down it wont cost much to replace it compared to a controller. wink.gif

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Quote Originally Posted by Anderton View Post
When I give seminars and ask how many people mix with a mouse, I'm surprised that it's almost always well over 50%.
I'm not surprised at that, considering how many people are creating music in home studios who have only seen mixing consoles in pictures and have never used one. And in line with that, there's a lot of music made from recordings that either have already been mixed (canned loops) or single tracks that have been compressed and volume-enveloped so they're uniform in level. "Mixing" tracks like that is pretty much like pouring everything into a funnel. There's little dynamic adjustment during the song. You turn on a track and it's already at the right level and panned where you want it, and when it's done, you turn it off. That's conducive to working with a mouse. When you tweak each track by itself, you can ride gain with a mouse without too much trouble. If there's no need to adjust half a dozen faders together, but not necessarily simultaneoulsy and the same amount each, that's where you need a mixing console or something that works like one.

I still have consoles and use them exclusively, because i work exclusively with live music and the playing isn't perfect, but it's dynamic in itself and that needs to be eveident in the mix - but not excessive. I've never actually mixed anything with a mouse.
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OK... so... I do pretty good mixes. With a mouse. I'm not saying this is the way. Definitely not saying that. But... although I am a very intuitive performer, I tend to embrace that polar opposite, the mouse fulfilling my intellectualized ideas. The mouse completes me in this particular scenario. But...

...this is not to say that I don't long for a more intuitive approach. I guess what is happening with me is I am making do. And yet...

...I read an article about a high profile mixer who does it my way. With a mouse. Now, I realize that isn't really real. It was some techno guy that has had some success. No problem with that but, this is wishful thinking on my part.

His paradigm is not really mine.

We have very different portals of release. But still...

I don't know... should I get a mixing surface?

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Quote Originally Posted by Anderton View Post
Hmmm...which brings up an interesting follow-up question: If you're not using a controller, is it a space issue, cost issue, compatibility issue, or do you just not feel the need?

Ken - have you thought of something like the FaderPort or AlphaTrack as a potential solution?
Yes.

Have I followed through?

No.

facepalm.gif

I would prefer a fuller controller or a mixer, but this would probably be my best bet given my small studio space.
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Quote Originally Posted by Lee Knight View Post
OK... so... I do pretty good mixes. With a mouse. I'm not saying this is the way. Definitely not saying that. But... although I am a very intuitive performer, I tend to embrace that polar opposite, the mouse fulfilling my intellectualized ideas. The mouse completes me in this particular scenario. But...

...this is not to say that I don't long for a more intuitive approach. I guess what is happening with me is I am making do. And yet...

...I read an article about a high profile mixer who does it my way. With a mouse. Now, I realize that isn't really real. It was some techno guy that has had some success. No problem with that but, this is wishful thinking on my part.

His paradigm is not really mine.

We have very different portals of release. But still...

I don't know... should I get a mixing surface?
It's not religion, you don't have to use one or the other. I do the preliminary mixing with a control surface, but use the mouse for touch-up.

I will say that after looking at the automation curves that get drawn due to my rhythmic "goosing" of the faders in time with the music, it would probably take a year to draw all of them in with a mouse.
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Quote Originally Posted by Anderton View Post
When I give seminars and ask how many people mix with a mouse, I'm surprised that it's almost always well over 50%. I've been doing a fair amount of mixing lately using the V-Studio control surface with Sonar, and every time I do, it reminds about how much more fluid the mixing session goes with a dedicated control surface.

So how many are using control surfaces, and if so, which ones? Any Euphonix Artist Series fans out there?
I started using the MCU (w/ DP) for a week before Sandy visited my studio. (Theres another story here for another thread which I`ll share soon....) Anyway, I can see myself mixing more and more with the MCU. I can`t tell you how nice it was to reach for a fader after 7 years ITB and adjust the volume and panning.
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I use a mouse.

I have considered getting something like the PreSonus Fader port. But I'm not sure exactly how it works. Having to reassign just one fader for multiple functions seems like more trouble than it would be worth. I've also heard that they are buggy.

As far as something like the Mackie MCU is concerned I feel like I could get a pretty decent analog board and interface for not much more than the MCU would cost. If money were no object I'd be recording analog anyway.

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I mostly mix with a mouse. I do use the controller faders on my old Roland XP30 to enter automation data- most often with filter effects that have to groove quickly in time, like Craig mentioned. Working to a grid, I often loop the best section of automation data rather than try to get a good take all the way through. Sometimes I tweak what I did with the controller by mouse after the fact.

The argument about how long things take to do with a mouse seems a little tenuous to me. First, barring some kind of insanely inefficient workflow, the time something takes here is not really a primary concern compared to being comfortable with how you work and how you get results that you're happy with. That said, some things that would be real time with a hardware fader are faster with a mouse...

  • sending to delay on the last word of each phrase. Looking at the waveform of the track while automating the delay send, I can do a whole song like this much faster than realtime- something like 2 seconds per move. On rap sessions I always have quarter-note and a half-note delay auxes up because inevitably someone wants timed echoes on certain words.
  • Boosting the lead vocal in all the verses by 3db... 3-5 seconds for the whole song with the mouse. Between playback takes I can spend 60 seconds tweaking track balances for an entire song in a way that would be pretty much impossible for one person to do during 3 minutes of playback. Guitars up in the chorus, lead guitar up here with rhythm down, vocals up here, bass comes up in the break, bump the drums up where they enter, big snare hit here, etc etc etc... all that can happen in the time of one playback.
  • Smooth fade over some amount of time... the time it takes to draw a couple control points, maybe 5 seconds?
And I can still ride a fader with the mouse if I choose to, in just the same amount of time as with a controller. The limitation of the mouse is that I can only ride one fader at a time, but honestly I hardly ever ride more than that in the first place.

Much of my time spent mixing is on stuff that controllers don't really excel at anyway. So far I haven't been too impressed with configuring routing and opening and setting plugins- would much rather do this with the mouse. I don't dig the little LED scribble strips and also don't like moving my visual focus away from the computer monitors to try to figure out where all the values got thrown. My plugins all look different on the screen and a good amount of design went into the UI of each- why would I want to try to look at them through third party hardware that throws that all out?

I think it should be said that automation implementation in ProTools is first rate/world class/whatever, it just totally rocks. It uses the same editing tools and concepts as audio and MIDI in ProTools and all that stuff happens in the same window. Great tools, great interface, can't be overstated what a difference that makes.

I like how control surfaces look, and if I had play money I would buy one to look good in the studio, but I'm pretty sure I would keep working how I do with the mouse most of the time anyway. Actually for a time I worked on a ProTools rig that had a Control24 and basically it was a giant mouse pad and a mains volume knob for me, plus a way to scare clients into submission. Beyond having a couple simple faders on a MIDI controller I just don't find enough value in controllers, no matter how sexy they look.

What I'm really holding out some hope for is really incredible multi-touch-screen implementation with ProTools. Right now that's the only way I can conceive of a faster, better workflow for myself inside the box.
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My first mixing experience - other than watching an engineer work a big old fashioned analog board - was with a Roland 1680 recorder. Later, when I moved totally over to a DAW, I had to use a mouse and I hated it.

I've set up a couple of midi fader boxes for mixing since then, and although it's kind of a pain, and not really that much like a real mixer, it still beats mousing in my book by a long, long way.

But I'm saving up and saving up and hoping to snag one of those Allen & Heath Zed16R analog mixers that Lee Flier has posted about. I want decent faders again, high quality hardware, something where you get a feeling of hands-on "playing" the mix instead of desktop-tweaking the mix.

nat whilk ii

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Quote Originally Posted by Anderton View Post
Hmmm...which brings up an interesting follow-up question: If you're not using a controller, is it a space issue, cost issue, compatibility issue, or do you just not feel the need?
I never did answer this question. I liked the controller. It's not a cost issue. It's largely a space issue + an "I am a lame-o and never followed up on small controllers" + I've experienced more than my share of installing stuff with a computer DAW and this dulls my motivation to go and buy and install something else kind of thing. And it's also a concession of sorts because in a perfect world, I'd have either a full controller or a mixer and everything would sync up magically to my DAW and life would be unicorns and rainbows.

Ken - have you thought of something like the FaderPort or AlphaTrack as a potential solution?
I have been considering these. I don't know very much about 'em, but I get the general idea, and they are appealing given my lack of space.

So now I've answered this a little better. I think I dashed off the last answer while eating lunch at work, never the best time to coherently get across what I'm trying to say. biggrin.gif

We've also been moving. I moved classrooms recently. I am a human forklift. I have been either moving boxes, stuffing things into boxes, looking for things in boxes, taking things out of boxes, moving furniture, moving cabinets, rearranging the classroom, redecorating and reconfiguring the new room, putting educational stuff up on walls, connecting computers, and other stuff. I'm physically and mentally fried now. My assistants are nice, but they're older females who cannot lift things, and when they take things out of boxes little by little, it takes so long that I'd just rather pick up the boxes and move them so we can move furniture in because it takes so much less time. But wow, I'm really tired!!!!
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I got to work on a big ol' MCI console for a couple years... never took to it, never got any kind of musical feeling from moving the faders, etc. Mostly it was a pain in the ass for me. I already play a bunch of different instruments so I'm not missing out when it comes to experiencing musicality. I guess I'm just not looking for a huge tactile environment when it comes to mixing. I do have dual 30" monitors in front of me when I mix, so it's not like I don't need sensory feedback... I'm just using my eyes and my ears, not my shoulders and hands so much. When I feel like interacting physically I get up and dance around the control room.

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Quote Originally Posted by Anderton

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What problems are you having with Vegas? It's MCU compatible for transport and audio functions...can't control the video tracks, though.

 

I haven't been able to find MIDI documentation for Vegas Platinum 12; I see a white paper for a prior version (8?) with a Vegas overlay for the MCU, but the procedure didn't seem to apply to version 12. I'm far from proficient with Vegas and would like to find a more in depth manual than what I downloaded from Sony's website. I'm still sifting through youtube tutorials.
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I often use my Peavey 1600X or my Korg Nano-control. For quick mixes I often just use the mouse. One issue with the controllers I have, which do not have mechanized faders, is that they can cause the virtual mixer and the audio level to suddenty jump to a certain level, depending on the level of the external fader relative to the virtual fader. There are ways to avoid this, but it takes a bit of planning and time.

BTW for $69 the Nano-control is an affordable way to experiment with external fader controls.

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I have a 9 fader, 8 knob surface built into my piano style controller. I almost never use it except for setting instrument volume in the DAW while at the keyboard. But the computer keyboard is just to my left when turned to the keys.

But for stuff like writing automation, while I've experimented with the DAW version of riding fader, I prefer using the rubber band automation in non realtime. I like the control. I've been looking at waveform representations on my screen since '93 or so (even before I put together my first DAW in '97, I was using two track editing to do radio doc production) and I find the waveform display to be a very natural place for me to work on track dynamics.


Now, I did spend 5 clams on the TouchDAW app for my Android tablet and phone* -- and it works pretty well to control a number of functions of my DAW, despite its one-size-fits-all generic approach. If I'm really trying to get a good capture of my acoustic, I'll move out into the center of the room away from reflective surfaces (like my monitor screen and work table) -- I'd previously set up an IR remote to do that, but it was awkward for anything other than recording, playing, and setting up a new track -- and, of course, communication was strictly one way. With TouchDAW, I have metering and can move around relatively easy from track to track and such. But, I'll be frank, it's rare I go to the trouble. wink.gif

*The phone interface actually works surprisingly well, but you have to keep switching the focus; the new interface they added for use with tablets allows a much broader view of tracks and busses, although, of course, you still can't see all a big project at once. One really cool feature on the phone interface (you can switch the tablet back and forth between interfaces) is that you can yoke the phone's gravitometer (if it has one) to realtime filter control and so on... presumably great for realtime control of synth filters and such for DJs and electronica producers.

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I've been considering ProRemote for the iPhone. As far as doing recording in my front room, currently I just VNC on my spare laptop to control my DAW. But I'll admit it is a bit of a hassle setting up another computer, etc. The idea of bringing up an app on my alwyas ready phone and slapping on phones in the other room is enticing.

But seeing the phone used as 4 fader controller in portrait orientation or 8, of course shorter faders, in landscape, touch sensitive... hmmm... though 60 bucks is a lot for an iPhone app, it isn't for a remote control/control surface. Interesting.

iPhone-ProRemote.png0.jpg

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I don't use a control surface or mixer.

When I first learned mixing and all things audio, it was on analog consoles. Then when I got my own DAW setup going, I couldn't afford a controller or mixer. After a while, I stopped wishing for it. Actually, with the options currently available I could probably find a controller that I could afford, it's just been a long time since I even thought about it. If I did get a controller, it would be to write automation, not really do any 'live' mixing.

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