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  • Just tried recording using a DAW

    The results sound crap

    The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums

    How the **** do you guys manage???


    a selection of my songs: https://soundcloud.com/songwriter101

    my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SaulTiberiusNads

  • #2

    MarkydeSad wrote:

    The results sound crap


    The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums


    How the **** do you guys manage???





    First, a brief catch-up on your current setup with the DAW...


    What kind of audio interface are you using? Mac or PC? Version?


    If there's another thread where you lay that out, just a link will do.


     


    Now, you say the drums sound like two iterations... that shouldn't happen at all, of course. But is that during tracking or playback? (I'm assuming these are MIDI drums. Since I seem to recall you working with a drum machine on previouis projects, I wonder if sticking with that for the time being might not be easier than trying to get up to speed with computer MIDI at the same time as everything else.)


    We need more detail, but right off, I'm wondering if you're using the appropriate drivers for your audio interface. For instance, in Windows, there are sort of generic drivers for basic soundcards, but they can have not just monitoring latency issue but issues misplacing audio events on the timeline, as well. (This can be a source of mis-match with MIDI events. MIDI timing issues are not completely unheard of either, but an audio interface driver supplying the wrong numbers for latency compensation -- once quite common and probably still more common than many realize -- is the more likely explanation for an audio/MIDI mismatch on the timeline.)


    (You can test timeline placement by placing a test tone -- I like test tones because the abrupt begin and end are easy to line up -- on the timeline, playing it back over analog outs while recording it directly into a new track. Make sure not to set up a feedback loop; best to turn monitors all the way down just to be safe.] If things are set up properly, the two tones should line up to the sample on the timeline, just as you would expect, say, bouncing from one track to another using the simulsync head on a tape machine. If not, there will be a gap. If you know you already have the appropriate drivers for your interface and they're set up right, then you need to look into your DAW's timeline adjustment capabilities. Many DAWs have some form of manual adjustment, typically entering an 'offset' in the form of the number of samples needed to get the tones to line up. Some even have an automatic calibration utility.)


     



    music and social stuff | The Forgotify Files | A Year of Songs | mutant pop on facebook | roots acoustic on facebook


    The chorus seems a little weak... I think it needs more lasers.

    Comment


    • #3

      You figure out how monitoring works with your setup. It's hard to do when all you have is a standard sound card because the controls are in too many places. If you're using Studio One, figure out what the Monitor button does in your setup. That's the one with the little speaker icon that's next to the Track Arm (Record) button in the track pane view or just below it in the Console view.

      What's happening is that when you're recording, you're recording the output of the sound card. But the output of the sound card also contains the playback of of your previously recorded tracks, but delayed by the amout of time it takes to go through the computer.

      If you mute the tracks that you've already recorded, they won't get recorded twice, but you won't be able to hear them when you're doing overdubs. The Focusrite interface has a monitor mixer that's separate from the DAW mixer that you can use when overdubbing, but it's another tool you'll need to learn. If you have a real mixer (and you might be able to use your old workstation for this), you can monitor the playback of your recorded tracks and send it to a different output than what's going to the computer for the next recording pass. It's all part of the great "Latency Conspirancy."

      It's really hard to learn this stuff from a book (particularly a DAW software manual!) or web site. You need someone who understands this stuff well enough to figure out what works with what you have and explain it to you in a way that you can understand it. I understand how it works because I've always recorded with a real hardware mixer - when I figured out what needed to be done, it was easy to do it. It's a lot harder when you can't see the connections and controls all in one place.

      Keep pluggin'. 

      --
      "Today's production equipment is IT-based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson, Resolution Magazine, October 2006
      Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then

      Comment


      • #4

        I didn't understand most of your post, blue

        Anyway, I tried it with Mixcraft and Studio One. Interface is a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. I used my usual standalone drum machine. I've no idea what MIDI is, so obviously I didn't use that


        a selection of my songs: https://soundcloud.com/songwriter101

        my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SaulTiberiusNads

        Comment


        • blue2blue
          blue2blue commented
          Editing a comment

          Your interface has a 'direct monitoring' option. Look it up in the manual. It sounds like your 'echo'/latency problem may be related to trying to monitor 'roundtrip' (with the inputs routed from the interface to the computer, back to the interface, and then to the monitoring -- what you really want is direct input monitoring, which your unit has, I just looked it up on Sweetwater -- that blends the playback cue from the computer with the input directly in the interface and then into the montor 'phones or speakers).


          If you get two iterations (copies) of a sound actually recorded, that seems to suggest that you're getting non-direct monitoring mixed into the track, which creates an echo type of situation.


          Hope that was more understandable...  wink.gif 

          Attached Files

      • #5

        MarkydeSad wrote:

        The results sound crap

        The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums

        How the **** do you guys manage???


        As Blue mentioned in his second post... use the "Monitor Direct Through" of whatever term your DAW uses. Also, lower the buffer.

        And I know I mentioned this in another thread but you may want to work on tunes for now in your old and familiar way, then import the recorded tracks into your DAW. At least that way you`re getting your ideas down and then you can "entertain" yourself in the DAW when the tracks are done!

        Comment


        • blue2blue
          blue2blue commented
          Editing a comment

          Ernest Buckley wrote:


          MarkydeSad wrote:

          The results sound crap


          The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums


          How the **** do you guys manage???




          As Blue mentioned in his second post... use the "Monitor Direct Through" of whatever term your DAW uses. Also, lower the buffer.


          And I know I mentioned this in another thread but you may want to work on tunes for now in your old and familiar way, then import the recorded tracks into your DAW. At least that way you`re getting your ideas down and then you can "entertain" yourself in the DAW when the tracks are done!





          A great idea!


          Sneak up on the new system. And, actually, I've heard of more than a few folks who did precisely this (and maybe stil do): using their taple top tracker to do basic tracking, then dump the results into a DAW to do editing, mixing, etc. 


          That would give you a good, lower pressure way to proceed. Because nothing kills the creative urge like technical headaches or just simple misunderstandings  -- and when moving to any new, unfamiliar system, there's going to be at least some. 


          Once you get used to DAW, you can integrate it into your tracking (and so get the benefit of the presumably nicer preamps in the Focusrite interface).


           


          Hang in there. It's just a big sea change for you, that's all. Some confusion and discomfort are to be expected. 


          It will make you stronger.



          If, you know, it doesn't kill you.  grin 

          Attached Files

        • MikeRivers
          MikeRivers commented
          Editing a comment

          Ernest Buckley wrote:

          As Blue mentioned in his second post... use the "Monitor Direct Through" of whatever term your DAW uses. Also, lower the buffer.


          I don't know how universal this function is. What it means to those of us who understand hardware better than computer gobbledegook is this: The DAW program has a knowledge of certain capabilities of the interface connected to it. If it knows enough, when you click the Monitor button, rather than sending the track input signal out through the DAW mixer, it mutes that signal and tells the interface to send the direct signal through its own mixer and add it to the mix of the other recorded tracks that are playing back when you're doing an overdub.

          Studio One can recognize PreSonus interfaces that have a built-in monitor mixer (which you still need to learn how to set up and operate) but I don't think they give a hoot about anybody else's product. They don't make a big enough deal about this, probably because it hints at a closed system which anyone who works with computers doesn't give a hoot for.

           


      • #6

        MarkydeSad wrote:

        The results sound crap

        The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums

        How the **** do you guys manage???


        Using an analog mutitrack with a sync head will fix all of this... just like that!

        Interesting to see someone start this all of a sudden rather than get sucked into it a little at a time over many years (decades).  You have a perspective most of us don't have in that you can see just how insane people have had to become to work with this fiddly stuff... and how easy it is to settle for a little less crappy rather than hold out for excellence.

        "Everybody loves you when you're six foot in the ground."
        ~John Lennon

        Comment


        • Lee Knight
          Lee Knight commented
          Editing a comment

          Beck wrote:


          Using an analog mutitrack with a sync head will fix all of this... just like that!


           




          No it won't! He'll still have the sync issue on his DAW. He'll have to do what Mike suggests. Using an anolog recorder won't fix his DAW at all! What are you thinking?!?!?


        • Ernest Buckley
          Ernest Buckley commented
          Editing a comment

          Beck wrote:

          MarkydeSad wrote:

          The results sound crap

          The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums

          How the **** do you guys manage???


          Using an analog mutitrack with a sync head will fix all of this... just like that!

          Interesting to see someone start this all of a sudden rather than get sucked into it a little at a time over many years (decades).  You have a perspective most of us don't have in that you can see just how insane people have had to become to work with this fiddly stuff... and how easy it is to settle for a little less crappy rather than hold out for excellence.


          Beck,

          I`m really not sure what you`re intentions are sometimes... your post makes absolutely no sense. It doesn`t matter what you`re past was in recording, any time you change the way you work, its frustrating. 

          EB


        • blue2blue
          blue2blue commented
          Editing a comment
          Beck wrote:

          MarkydeSad wrote:

          Ernest Buckley wrote:

          Now... back to the topic...


          Mark, how is your second week with the DAW working out for you?



           


          By the way, I haven't recently 'gone digital'. I've been using standalone digital multitracks since about 2001. This recent change is about using a laptop, software and interface. So I actually went over to the 'dark side' a while ago. This move is about going slightly darker....



          I actually picked up on that from the beginning, and my initial comments were comparing stand-alone to computer based DAW.  The thread shortly mutated into digital vs analog, but my feelings about the DAW model and especially working ITB are the same when comparing it to stand-alone digital or analog.


           



           [bold added]


          What Beck actually wrote in his first post:



          Beck wrote:


          MarkydeSad wrote:

          The results sound crap


          The drums sound like two drum kits several milliseconds apart, and the guitar is out-of-sync with the drums


          How the **** do you guys manage???




          Using an analog mutitrack with a sync head will fix all of this... just like that!


          Interesting to see someone start this all of a sudden rather than get sucked into it a little at a time over many years (decades).  You have a perspective most of us don't have in that you can see just how insane people have had to become to work with this fiddly stuff... and how easy it is to settle for a little less crappy rather than hold out for excellence.




          [bold added]


           


          Gee... memory... its such a tricky thing. But, you know what? Knowledge is based on the proper organization of experience into memory.


      • #7

        Well anyway, I've written a new song

        So tomorrow I shall programme the drum-machine and record it on my new DAW!! :smiley-music015:


        a selection of my songs: https://soundcloud.com/songwriter101

        my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SaulTiberiusNads

        Comment


        • blue2blue
          blue2blue commented
          Editing a comment

          MarkydeSad wrote:

          Well anyway, I've written a new song


          So tomorrow I shall programme the drum-machine and record it on my new DAW!! :smiley-music015:




          Normally, about now, I'd be saying, Please don't tell me it's about your new DAW!



          But, you know, knowing you, you might find some bizarre way to make that work.  wink.gif 

          Attached Files

      • #8

        :smiley-popcorn:

        **********

        "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

        - George Carlin

        "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

        - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

        "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

        - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

        Comment


        • #9
          Kudos to anyone replying to the above post and quoting it.

          Lol
          EB

          Comment


          • #10

            :smiley-hijacked:


            a selection of my songs: https://soundcloud.com/songwriter101

            my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SaulTiberiusNads

            Comment


            • blue2blue
              blue2blue commented
              Editing a comment

              I see much evidence to the contrary, Beck, at least at GS, where there are a great number of tape afficianadi and those who want to experiment or switch. 


              But, hey, let's stipulate that if your appreciation of the situation was on-target, that used machines in good shape are plentiful, spare parts are easy to get, and quality tape is easy to get and affordable enough to be practical, then I would say that those who believe they 'don't like the sound of digital' would be suckers to not buy analog tape decks.


              That said, I don't see any evidence that those conditions are necessarily true. For instance, while it's good news that analog tape is available again in multitrack audio widths/formats, it's not all that reassuring that quality control problems continue to be a problem as they were at 3M and Ampex in the 90s.


                


            • Ernest Buckley
              Ernest Buckley commented
              Editing a comment

              MarkydeSad wrote:

              :smiley-hijacked:


              LMAO

              I was waiting for you to use that little guy!


          • #11

            Still waiting to hear some of that recorded music from Beck that Craig requested... :smiley-popcorn:

            **********

            "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."

            - George Carlin

            "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."

            - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

            "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."

            - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

            Comment


            • UstadKhanAli
              UstadKhanAli commented
              Editing a comment

              Phil O'Keefe wrote:

              Still waiting to hear some of that recorded music from Beck that Craig requested... :smiley-popcorn:


              I've actually been asking Beck to hear it for years.  And not because I want to tear it apart or prove that this is better than that....I'm simply curious to hear what it sounds like based on his opinions on analog, how he is completely free and unrestricted in his approach to songwriting, and...well, I just am curious!!!

              I am a curious person, after all.


            • Ernest Buckley
              Ernest Buckley commented
              Editing a comment

              Phil O'Keefe wrote:

              Still waiting to hear some of that recorded music from Beck that Craig requested... :smiley-popcorn:


              Just for the record, I requested it twice. 


          • #12
            Two things are quite clear from this thread:

            1) Rudy von has hijacked Becks HC account

            And

            2) I can't remember...

            Comment


            • #13
              Oh I remember now...

              2) Craig, we desperately need the facepalm avatar back! This thread justifies it!

              Comment


              • #14

                Anyway, back on topic

                So far I've recorded the drums, two acoustic guitars and the bass

                I'm wondering how to remove the closed hi-hat I used on the drum track as a metronome


                a selection of my songs: https://soundcloud.com/songwriter101

                my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SaulTiberiusNads

                Comment


                • UstadKhanAli
                  UstadKhanAli commented
                  Editing a comment

                  MarkydeSad wrote:

                  Anyway, back on topic

                  So far I've recorded the drums, two acoustic guitars and the bass

                  I'm wondering how to remove the closed hi-hat I used on the drum track as a metronome


                  Look, I don't know who you think you are, but you don't decide the topic here!!!!  

                  I don't know the answer to your question, but hopefully it's just a question of turning the drum machine off, muting the track, or some such thing.  Glad to hear that it's going alright in general, though!!!!


              • #15

                Once again Mike Rivers delivers! :smileythumbsupsmall:


                a selection of my songs: https://soundcloud.com/songwriter101

                my youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/SaulTiberiusNads

                Comment

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