Creating layers, lead parts, synth parts, solos???

[bluecosmo5050]

Hello,

Here is my deal... I'm 29 years old, I've been playing guitar since I was 12. I've picked up things from theory over the years, however most of my guitar life has been spent just coming up with good riffs and creating a song. I've payed drums in most bands I've been in, so I kinda work that way on the guitar. The reason I'm able to pull off things that make it look like I know what I'm doing is because I've been doing it so long I know what all the notes sound like and if I create a shape I know what it will sound like etc.

I then started to learn music theory, I learned some basic of it because I wanted to be able to add bass guitar as well as Synth in my tracks and not just follow the guitar but create new layers of riffs. I'm able to do this because my ear is used to it, the same way I'm able to write a guitar solo.

However I am held back. It takes me forever to do what I want to do sometimes and I'd rather just know, "Well I can go over here and it will work." I have not remembered what Chords are in each key. However, I know how to find out. It's easier for me to find out with Piano even though I'm a guitar player because of the way it's laid out. I know where all the notes are on the guitar.

My problem is, I can't get anyone to really explain to me how these layers work. For example, let's say we got an A minor, I know I can play those notes over C Major as it's the relative minor. What I DON'T KNOW, is when I add all the notes that I add, just because they sound right, if I'm going off key. An A minor pentatonic scale for example, I almost never will play that, I will always had a lot of notes to it. Counting every string it usually ends up being 12 note scales. For all I know, it may be in another key. I can't find that out by seeing what note I start on because I know positions of the A minor scale where I do not start out on the root note.

If I'm playing A minor scales, I also don't know if I can only play that over A minor and C major or if because of my added notes it will fit over some other key. It sounds right to me. I also don't like having to go find what notes are in each scale, because let's say I write a two chord riff to make it simple... Those two chords are in a ton of different keys. So, can I use any chords that are in any key as long as the key has those two chords in it?

This holds me back a lot because I can write really good riffs but I don't just want one riff. I like lead parts going over it, rather it be synth or guitar. Sometimes I like solos.

Let's say someone sends me an entire song in the key of C, not just a riff, but the whole song is in the key of C. Obviously if I write chords over it I can use any of them in the key of C, but how do I figure out what other chords will also work? There are so many scales, there is no way I can identify what scale I'm playing because I'm hitting the notes or chords that sound right in a riff.

I know there has to be a way to simplify this. There is something I'm not getting. Now that I'm not playing in bands, I want to create all the layers myself. Most of the time my ear is good but might not always be.

If I sit here and remember all the keys and what notes are in them without having to find them, what do I do with that information if people are adding chords that aren't even in the key, yet it will sound good?

I know all of the main chords with Piano as well. I cannot write a bass line no matter what. If I don't play what the guitar is playing, my only option is to play the same notes somewhere else. I want to know how to do a whole other thing on top of it.

[nat whilk II]

Huge question - and a very good question.

 

Usually people come at this from the opposite angle, where they first learn basic chord progressions and then as a next step, struggle to learn "what notes can I play against these chords if I take a solo?"

 

Jazz guys call this "harmonization" - where they start with a melody and then figure out what chords to play to back it up and bring the nuances out of the melody. You could find a good textbook or workbook that teaches this - it would be slow and tedious, but you'd soon be able to concoct any riff or melody you want and then fill out the chords.

 

What you said about not being able to write a bass line - all you can do is just play the same notes that's in your riff - means that you could really benefit from getting a grounding in counterpoint. That's the art of playing two (or more) melodies at once that fit together. There are a number of websites that teach counterpoint - for example, take a look at Counterpointer at http://www.ars-nova.com. Googling around you'll find others.

 

One last suggestion - have you seen the Guitar Grimoire series of books? You can buy them on Amazon. The author is a guy named Adam Kadmon - his website is http://www.guitargrimoire.com. He tarts up his website to make it look like some occult portal or something - it's just a schtick he plays up as kind of a joke - he's for real and his books are great for scanning through, dipping into, studying, and as a reference (there are endless charts of all the modes, chords, and so on). But I have learned a lot working through his instructional chapters. He addresses all your questions in one way or another.

 

best of luck - I'm 99% self-taught in music, so I know the conceptual brickwall feeling very intimately...keep at it, you'll get there.

 

nat whilk ii

 

[bluecosmo5050]

Thanks for the help. Yes, I can write another melody with bass, even with different notes. What I meant to say though, is I can only write with the same notes and know for sure that it works. Most of the time, when I have someone who knows theory well listen to my guitar solos they say they are in perfect key and I do that by ear.

 

However, there have been a few times, where they have said it hasn't been, but it sounds right to me, I'm not saying it's in key but it sounds like it goes there somehow.

 

It's kinda like driving a car, I've been playing for so long that I don't really need to think about it, I already know what whatever I do will sound like generally. I do not play much progressive metal anymore but I grew up playing in bands that were very competitive, seeing who can write the most technical song and making it out to be a sport. That ruined music for me for a long time.

 

However, even when I was in those bands, the other guitar player knew what to play to harmonize with the riff. I could also harmonize with his riff but it was just because I knew where to go from muscle to sound memory.

 

It does feel like a brick wall. Because if I do not learn this, I can still write great songs for the rest of my life and keep advancing but I will never be able to truly produce songs by myself with different instruments and know what to do. I don't want to put a synth over a guitar and use notes that are not the same as the guitar riff and someone think, "This idiot isn't even in key."

 

But then I've had people tell me that even when I'm not in key, what I'm doing is somehow right and they go into detail into explaining it and lose me somewhere along the way.

 

I know how to read and write music with drums. That helps me being a one man band using Logic Pro X. Because I am able to program things. But I want to be able to program things that have notes.

 

I will check out these books. I feel like what I need though, is very basic. For example, the A minor pentatonic scale. When I use that scale and add 6 more notes to it which sound right in the song, am I now playing in some other key? Because I may not even be starting on the A. I know where the root notes are, so I am constantly going to them in a guitar solo and basically finding notes around them that sound right all up and down the neck and in different positions.

 

But when I do that, I am not sure I'm doing it correctly. If I find an A on the 7th fret on the D string, I will just simply use shapes and patterns around it and then go to another A or a C.

 

It looks and sounds like I know what I am doing but I have no idea what I am doing. I have looked all over YouTube and NO ONE ever gets to the questions I want asked. It's either beginner courses of how to play a guitar solo in key, or a really advanced course that I can't understand.

 

I guess I'm trying to say... I'm not trying to go learn as many scales as I can, I want to know how I'm supposed to know if the scales that I just think sound right over a riff, which are built around the note that is in key are actually in key.

 

I did one guitar solo to try to get this question answered in which one guy, told me I did not play one note out of key. The other guy says it's out of key.

 

But the second guy, I purposely lied to, to test him. I told him, "You must not know much about guitar or you'd know this is in key." In which he replied, "Okay maybe it is in key but I don't like the way it sounds." Which makes me question if he even knew if it was even in key or not.

 

There are also bands I grew up listening to who know absolutely no music theory and they write amazing guitar solos. I do not know if they are doing what I'm doing or how they are figuring out what notes they can use. Chimaira was a band I liked growing up as a teenager and early 20's, especially because I am a drummer. I once asked the guitarist, Rob Arnold, if he knew music theory. He told me he didn't even know what scale he was playing much less theory. Coheed and Cambria, same response. Yet they are doing these epic guitar solos. They aren't just sitting there shredding, they are doing real guitar solos. Such as the solos at the end of the song, "The final cut," on the live performance from Coheed and Cambria. Apparently, he doesn't know what scale he is going off of, or any music theory, yet if you watch that on YouTube, I do not understand how he is doing that without that knowledge.

 

Well, I shouldn't say I don't understand, because I do understand because that's what I'm doing. It's just I'm not doing it with confidence that it is correct.

[nat whilk II]

Well, ok, if you are starting with an A minor pentatonic scale, and you add "in-between" notes, you probably are just playing up and down a regular a>b>c>d>e>f>g>a A minor scale. Or say the song is in C, so you just play all white notes on the keyboard, then you are just playing up and down and around with a regular C major scale. Pentatonic is just a starter concept anyway. No one just plays five-note scales all through a tune (well, someone probably does - but it would probably be boring.)

 

So the easy way to do all this is to have a song with nothing but chords that are all in the same key (like country music for the most part.) Then you can solo or riff using any of the notes in that key on top of any of the chords in that key and no one can say any of the notes are "out of the key". Like with C - it's still all just the white notes regardless of chord, as long as you're still in C. Just play to taste, hitting the white notes that seem to feel right.

 

But after a while that feels limiting, gets old. People want to move out of one key into another one for a while. Or they want to play nicely discordant notes that are out of the key but just sound good. If the song moves to another key for a while, then you can just switch to the notes of the tonic note scale in that key. For playing notes that are truly out of the key, you have to learn by ear which notes and at what points in the music these outlier notes can work, where you can fit them in and not make a train wreck with some other instrument.

 

So you learn the regular scales first, and if you know the key, you've got your basic notes that are always "safe". Then you learn to play the spicier notes outside of the key when that can work. Then you learn how to play alternate scales to the tonic scales that go with all keys - the modes. If you get to where you know all the scales in all keys, and most of the modes people use as second nature, you are pretty far along and have enough know-how to write most any pop or rock or prog or metal. You want to advance past that, sure - there's no end to all this stuff, but way out there in the boonies of scale and chord weirdness, the audience thins out considerably.

 

Hope this helps -

 

nat whilk ii

 

 

 

[rhino55]

Great questions. I think Nat has a better handle on this sort of thing than I do and has given some great answers. I would add, what does it matter what it's called if it sounds right to you? There are people out there who talk dismissively of theory. That's not what I'm trying to do here. I think any understanding can be beneficial, but trusting your ears is always the best way to go.

 

 

[WRGKMC]

I think you should focus on Jazz guitar. Get some DVD's and study them.

 

Whet you quickly discover is the instrument can produce Bass, Harmony and melody parts all at the same time. There aren't allot of short cuts to understanding it however. No secret formulas or any of that nonsense. You can copy others who do it for awhile to build up your skills playing and listening but the only trick I have for you deals with ear training.

 

The melody, harmony and bass are all contained within the various chords used. Being able to hear them within the chords doesn't just come to you, you have to work thorough them all and set up your own navigation points. Sometimes it can be very frustrating. I may be writing something and the "other" parts I hear in the back of my mind are so close I can taste them but they may not be easy to find until you do find them and then you slap yourself on the back of the head for being so stupid. In fact much of what you think is difficult isn't. Some of your best tunes are ultra simple but its the musical composition that makes it fit so perfect it just cant be done any other way.

 

Chord inversions is one thing you cant do without. You need to pick one chord and learned where its played all over the neck. This way when you have a melody or riff being used you'll know all the go to chords in that register which can be used.

 

The thing is, just knowing where the chords are isn't going to help you write music. You have to develop the skill of hearing music in your mind without an instrument in hand. Some of it can be visual construction like imagining a guitar neck and strings but none of the visual memory is any good unless you have the ability to hear the notes in your mind.

 

Some people have this natural ability and some don't. It is something that can be developed but it should be confused with other types of aural memory. People who have schizophrenia hear voices for example but that's not a controllable form of aural skill. Its a sickness that breaks that doorway and people hear sounds from the subconscious that cant be controlled without special medications and even then there may be so much damage that subconscious dominates their personality.

 

In music you develop the skills to hear sound in silence. You can recall music and play it back in your mind at any speed and detail. You can even separate out individual parts from others and only hear the notes it produces. You can reverse that focus and place the other instruments around that part too. This is what I do when I write music. I may only have a chord pattern or a single riff and I mentally build the parts around that part. Some of it is easier then others because I play multiple instruments. I'm able to write the parts on the spot in many cases when I record but its still allot easier when I have some kind of preconceived blueprint to work from.

 

There are some exercises you can use too develop these skills too. I have dozens I've either discovered, rediscovered, or invented on my own. One that works exceptionally well is acquired just by listening to music. As a musician you tend to focus on your main instrument parts. Focusing so you can block out the other parts and hear the notes becomes a habit. Breaking that habit can be very difficult.

 

When you need to do is develop the concentration for focusing on all the other instruments.

Imagine yourself back stage with a band and you walk out with the other players but instead of picking up the guitar you step up on the drum riser and play the drums. You not only have to imagine yourself playing in back of the band but you have to shift where sounds come from. You'll have the guitar amps on the left and right, singers out front of you and you'll be seeing them from the back, not the front. You'll hear the echo of the band bouncing off the far end of the theatre coming back at you as a delayed echo and you time your drums to work with that echo.

 

See what I'm getting at here. You are the drummer, its not someone else. When you listen to the music imagine yourself playing those parts, not sitting in an audience watching a band play.

This is an essential skill in being able to hear those other musical parts when you write music.

 

In the beginning you'll be battling allot of ghost echo's in your mind. You may hear one note or beat every measure that fits right or sounds right. The other notes in between may be blurry. As you gain more experience with this kind of musical engineering you'll substitute blacks of things you know will fit there. It may not be exactly what you want but it can patch holes in the musical composition.

 

Then it just takes that 99% perspiration experimenting with combinations that fit till you get the perfect combinations you need. Adding additional parts all works along similar lines. If you can imagine the keyboard notes you can find them. If you can imagine the chords you will find them.

 

Even the melody and lyrics work this way. I often save those for when the music is nearing completion. I hear the melody within the music and its just a matter of giving it words that express the emotional content of the music. I often go around for days hearing the words from a single hook line going on and simply have to sit down and write poetry for the rest. sometimes I'll just write lyrics with no melody at all and just use the tempo of the words to develop a theme or story. I may get 20 pages together then flip through them to find the best lyrics to fit what I have recorded and invent the rest on the spot.

 

You'd be amazed at how well this works too. I suppose I got the knack for it as a lid. We used to bypass the TV's audio and plug mics into the TV and do a karoke thing and record the movie with our voices. We's get a bunch of people together and each dumb in the voices of different actors and narrate other things going on. Its are real hoot if you got some imaginative people there making actors say what you've always wanted them to say. Playing it back years later can be a real kick too.

 

The thing.with this exercise is you learn to be creative on the spot and on demand. You cant thing of things ahead of time you have to be thinking ahead of the action and already have an answer and be prepared to deliver it on time and in character. Music is very similar in many ways. Lines and action are delivered on a timed basis with a clock running in the background which wont wait for you.

 

You either have to be faster then the clock, or have the ability to slow that clock down so you can dance around it and still hit the breaks on time. Much of this requires you stepping away from being a listener too. A listener trails the musical tempo and hears everything as an echo. The slowest a musician can be is in sync on tempo. He cannot lag at all, but he can be far ahead of the tempo mentally.

 

I often leap ahead of what going to happen to prepare. My body is capable of playing much of the music robotically without mush mental oversight at all. Its like walking down the road, you don't focus on what your feet are doing most of the time you just walk. You can be talking to someone else, thinking about what's around the corner, what you'll do when you get to the destination or just focus on chewing gum. You only focus on the physical part when you have to, stepping over a puddle or giving it more power walking up steps.

 

When you're experienced enough as a player this becomes normal. You may only focus on a few riffs out of a dozen and even then it was just to give it some focused passion.

 

Music writing is the same thing. You see the song in its entirety and focus your attention on the missing gaps and bridge them. You can use a temporary bridge to fill the hole just to see how it would sound then you can really come up with something crafty there. ,

 

That's the real fun in music anyway. Playing out live is cool too but it does make you physically wheary. When the shows over you're all alone packing up as though it never happened.

Writing music is a building process. sometimes that build is easier then others. I have songs I slapped together in literally 5 minuites and they cant be improved other then using better musicians.

 

I have other songs I've written and rewritten dozens of times over many decades. I even pull some out I've written 50 years ago and revamped them, add the skills I have to day and record them. It may be only then why I remembered those sons after all those years, because they have some small thing going on that just sounds good. fancying it up, playing well and adding good recording quality surely helps, This is thay have a hook that can be improved over time.

 

Don't leave out collaboration too. Nothing is better for music writing then to work with at least one other musician who writes too. Last studio band I had we were like Lennon and McCartney going at it, except we wrote nearly a thousand different songs together, many of them on the spot live. We got so good at it after 12 years we even considered playing out live and writing every song we played that night on the spot live. Its really no different then what Jazz players do except our music was more pop and rock. I still cant believe some of the tunes we came up with. It was all because we appreciated what the other did and was just as happy backing them doing their music as they were to backing me.

 

It gave you a reason to write which is very important. If there's no healthy competition going on with other people you loose the kind of drive essential to producing good songs.