Does anyone here actually write songs?

[ToxicBass]

I'm new to the boards. It would seem this songwriting board should be "the place to be". But there doesn't seem to be any sharing of information, just the occasional opinion of someones heart-felt effort at songwriting. I for example have a Tascam PortaII tape, run Windows 98 at home and have dial-up. I also have a big fat mortgage and a family to feed. I have no way to produce or post Mp3's. The best I can do is post lyrics. I posted some and then deleted the posts. Why? There doesn't seem to be any interest in songwriting (at least not mine). Some of you guys have years of knowledge and experience to share with us peons. Are you afraid someone will rip-off your material? Hell, you can have mine if you can make it go. Some of the boards are overcrowded with off-topic crap and the occasional "Dude like you only have 12 posts and you got nothin to say". Gee, I would really love to comment on all the crap I don't know about, just so I can have all those posts like you. I know lots of people who can play an instrument; none of which can write a song. I don't play bass very well and I play guitar even worse. One thing I can do is mix words and melody; crudely structured, I call them- songs. Maybe not ones you like but I created them. I came here to learn about something I like to do from people who know how to do it.

This board could and should be the best and most creative of all the forums; the board everyone wants to read. You can tell me to shut the F'ck up- but I ain't goin' away.

[BryanMichael]

I don't post much here because I found it pointless.

Many people here work under a few things that make them rather useless to me anyway.

 

1. That there are "no rules" - which technically is true, but how do you evaluate the work if you have no criteria? I've posted long, in depth line by line critiques of songs and supporting reasons based on established craft (while allowing lee-way for style and interpretation) only to be told that I just didn't understand, that their songwriting was "above me" or that what they wrote was standard practice for a particular style- all which are irrelevant if you are working on "craft" because it works independently of style. It's about structure, not about content- that is impossible to explain to most people here.

 

2. Many people here feel that any rhyme is a cliche rhyme. "serious" poetry and lyrics don't rhyme. Again, I say bull{censored}. There is room enough for all kinds of writing, but a rhyme that works in a phrase that actually says something and moves the song narrative forward is brilliant IMO, but it's harder to write and I'm not saying that all of my own work fits into all of these perfect categories all the time either...

 

3. Many people here are pretty young and isolated in experience and exposure- so for me at 35, who has been gigging almost as long as some of these people have been alive, who has had some smaller successes as a songwriter (and been paid for them) to be told by a 21 year old metal kid that my songs are "lame" or "cliche" doesn't help me much. I'm not above genuine criticism, but again, supporting arguments made by referencing matters of "craft" might help me see a weakness in something, whereas general opinion doesn't mean much.

 

4. Some people here post "songs" which are nothing more than instrumental compositions. I realize that they don;t really have another place to post them here at HC, but they are NOT songs!! they are instrumental compositions. Songwriting is a specific thing, again people want to argue about that- but other "dedicated" songwriter boards have members that understand that, however I DO find most of them to be awash in cliches...

 

5. If you'd like, email me a lyric and I'll look at it. I'm no expert, and everything I offer is on a "if it is helpful to you, keep it, if not, don't- it's your song!" basis. I'll email you back a full critique.

And YES you DO have the ability to transfer your songs into your computer through your soundcard and convert them with free software if you wanted to.

 

B

[ToxicBass]

Bryan,

I'm glad someone can relate to my venting. I'll take you up on the offer via email and the computer help, but I'm not ready to give up here. You seem well versed in theory and technique, which are two things I don't have much experience in. I do have a blast trying to write. To me versatility has always been on my side. I don't even try to write a song, but sometimes the words and melody come anyways. Some are fragments or a full verse and chorus. I have my share of "silly love songs", classic Rock & Roll songs and a couple of non-serious comical songs. I don't listen to country music, but I wrote a comical country song in tribute to the truckdrivers that keep our great nation moving. Where did that come from? I don't know, but it came anyway.

I'll post some lyrics tomorrow and see what happens.

[sevenroy]

The problem I have with just lyrics, is that it doesn't make a song. Lyrics don't even really have to make sense to make a song work. By just posting lyrics, I don't get a sense of the melody and how it works with the harmony and rhythm.

 

To me, and this is just an opinion, reading lyrics only is like eating the filling of an Oreo cookie--it can be done, but it's just not as satisfying as the whole thing.

[sevenroy]

oh, and I do write songs, but I don't post them. mostly because I'm lazy.

 

I come to this forum to read about how others write songs, what works for them, learn about influences, etc.

[seahorse]

pee- ons?

[LDF]

Like the forum link says, it's the most often underappreciated and overlooked aspects of making music. I have some theories as to why there is so little discussion about songwriting here, so bear with me.

 

I think the first and biggest problem is that musicians are under the impression that writing lyrics and good melodies is the least important part of the creative process. We all want to be guitar idols, not poet lauriates. A guitar (or other instrument) is something you can see, feel and manipuate physically so it's easier to become preoccupied with it. We think that in order to be well respected and worth our salt as musicians we have to be able to shred guitar and whatnot. Of course this is a huge misconception. There are so many bands that play the same types of music with the same chords and so on, yet one will be a hit success and the rest more or less suck. It's easy to see why when you listen to the songs. BAD LYRICS. I've listened to a lot of bands that post their stuff online. 99% of the time I'm forced to stop the song because the singer can't sing and the lyrics are silly, contrived, uninspired etc.... No record deal for you guys.

 

And so we get the idea that if we get really good at playing we can make up for our lack of skill in other areas.

The other problem creatively speaking is that so few of us (myself at least) can sing well. I've found after 5 years that if you can't sing you can't write good songs. I thought I could put it off till later. In other words, write the songs now and learn how to sing them later. But now I realize that in order to be a good songwriter you have to be a good singer. Singing isn't just important for performing. It's just as important to the creative process. No one ever writes guitar parts before they learn to play the thing. It doesn't work that way, and it doesn't work for songwriting either.

I think that a great song is born only when all the elements come together with equal proficiency on the part of the musician. Unfortunately we're led to beleive that the words are something you throw in afterwards, or that they don't need to have any meaning within the context of the music.

 

I might add more to this rant a little later...

You asked a good question!

[ToxicBass]

The "lyrics only" and the Oreo cookie is a good analogy. Personally, I don't like Oreo cookies, but I know what you mean.

I also don't think you have to sing well to write good songs. It's funny, but I know how I want the song to sound. Sometimes it's hard to produce the sound with limited equipment, but I still try. For example, I want to sing a harmony to the main vocals. I know what I want it to sound like, but I really can't sing it. I sing in what I call a "fake voice". Sometimes it's very high, but not good sounding- by itself. When I mix it down, I sort of bury it in the background. It carries the harmony and gets the point across. One of the few things I've ever been good at is writing. I loved English Composition class, especially freestyle. I've accepted the fact that, at 44 years old, I'll never be able to play the guitar well. And guess what? I don't care. I'd rather write songs than play them. I've played some short term bar bands and I hated it. I don't like cover music. Someone already wrote that song, why would I want to play it? I want to write songs that someone else would want to play and from what I hear on the radio, there are a lot of "musicians" in need of material.

As far as influences go, I grew up in the 70's but my only influence is myself and the enjoyment of making something out of nothing. Many of my songs were written 20 years ago and they still seem to "fit". I've only recently thought about pursuing songwriting as a serious hobby. That's why I'm here.

[pretaanluxis]

I always say that the melody, cater, and generally how the words are said is much more important thatn the actual words.

 

Most of the songs I enjoy don't particularly make sense.

For example; By The Way by Red Hot Chili Peppers:

 

Standing in line

To see the show tonight

And there's a light on

Heavy glow

By the way I tried to say

I'd be there... waiting for

Dani the girl

is singing songs to me

Beneath the marquee... overload

 

Steak Knife Caro Shark

Con Job Boot Cut

 

Skin that flick

She's such a little DJ

Get there quick

By street but not the freeway

turn that trick

to make a little leeway

Beat that nic

But not the way that we play

 

Dog Town Blood Bath

Rib Cage Soft Tail

 

Black Jack Dope Dick

Pawn Shop Quick Pick

 

Kiss that Dyke

I know you want to hold one

Not on strike

But I'm about to bowl one

Bite that mic

I know you never stole one

Girls that like

A story so I told one

 

Song Bird Main Line

Cash Back Hard top

 

[Aaron Cheney]

 

Originally posted by BryanMichael I don't post much here because I found it pointless.

 

 

Bryan my friend, you and I are on the same wavelength here. I'm 37. I've had moderate success as a songwriter, probably more than most on this board. I'm an award-winning songwriter and author of the book Understanding Songwriting. I have taught songwriting at the local college as well as private song coaching.

 

I almost never bother to critique songs here or in the other BBS I post in.

 

Why? All the reasons you stated. I'm tired of giving thoughtful, knowledgable advice based on real-world experience, only to be told that I don't know what I'm talking about, that there are no "rules" in songwriting, and I should just go off and die for not recognizing "real" art when I see it.

 

I've grown tired of the whole thing.

 

My heart is sick and sad.

 

From where the sun now stands I will fight no more forever.

 

A

[kurdy]

I've always been of the philosophy that there are definite rules in songwriting. As they say, rules are meant to be broken, but you must know the rules first. If you are a songwriter looking to get your songs recorded or performed by other musicians, you're better off following the rules. If you are a songwriter who performs your own songs, you can get away with more, but chances are that if you follow the rules at least some of the time, more people will like your stuff.

 

There are a ton of books on songwriting, and though they all offer unique perspectives, their advice is basically similar. Just go to the local library or bookstore and start reading.

 

By the way, I've never had any of my songs published or recorded, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But it makes sense to me.

[Silent Heart]

For most people, it's just inherently more fun to argue about some amp or synth (or talk about random BS) than to make generic comments about the mediocre lyrics that somebody posted. Why? I don't know. Possibly 1) it's more work to give constructive criticism about the quality of a song, 2) most people don't write their own songs, 3) even the best advice is going to be mostly ignored by people, 4) it's more difficult to debate the aesthetic value of songs in a formal, technical way than for example, the settings on an amp, or what type of pickups to use, etc.

[AGreaterHope]

Here's the thing: reading lyrics on here is pointless unless they can stand as poetry by themselves. Most songwriters rely on the musical statement of the song to fill out and enhance what the words are saying. Without the music, the lyrics seem mediocre and no one wants to be too critical so they don't reply. Probably if you don't get many replies it's because your lyrics are failing to move anyone.

[BryanMichael]

 

Originally posted by AGreaterHope Here's the thing: reading lyrics on here is pointless unless they can stand as poetry by themselves. Most songwriters rely on the musical statement of the song to fill out and enhance what the words are saying. Without the music, the lyrics seem mediocre and no one wants to be too critical so they don't reply. Probably if you don't get many replies it's because your lyrics are failing to move anyone.

 

 

This is a classic example of the attitude I'm talking about.

 

There are most DEFINITELY ways to critique lyrics from a structural standpoint that do not require the music.

 

Of course you CAN do, say, write, sing anything- but that's not what is referred to as part of the craft.

 

If you look at lyrics as any type of writing, there are things that make it work better mechanically than others. There is always room for interpretation and change, and artistic blah blah blah, but structural things generally help, and that's what I'm talking about. just because something sings well and you like a song doesn't mean that technically it's well written. Of course, then the question becomes "who cares?" since you like the song anyway, But working on it from an established point of view will only help you, not hurt you.

 

B

[AGreaterHope]

I don't think my post is a classic example of what you are talking about since you seem to have misinterpreted it.

 

My point was that if you want to be critiqued as a songwriter, you should become a master of the interplay between words and music. Each reinforces the other.

 

For example, one of the basic lyrical problems is that words have their own rhythm. Iambic pentameter is one rhythm of words. Because of the existence of rhythm in words, if you are a good songwriter, you will match or complement the lyrical rhythm to the musical rhythm. You have no basis for critique in this regard if you haven't heard the music.

 

Of course you can critique just lyrics, but like I said, I don't see the difference between a critique of poetry and a critique of "lyrics" in that case. The problem I have is that you could have really good lyrics but still have a really bad song.

[Aaron Cheney]

True... lyrics are only one half of a song. Still, they are worth evaluating on their own merit.

 

Just as an aside, lyrics are to poetry what a fiddle is to a violin. Two completely different approaches to words. One of the biggest pitfalls young writers fall into is the old "I write great poems and then set them to music." Those kinds of songs are usually a little boring (as is Iambic pentameter in songs.)

 

A

[BryanMichael]

Originally posted by AGreaterHope I don't think my post is a classic example of what you are talking about since you seem to have misinterpreted it. My point was that if you want to be critiqued as a songwriter, you should become a master of the interplay between words and music. Each reinforces the other. For example, one of the basic lyrical problems is that words have their own rhythm. Iambic pentameter is one rhythm of words. Because of the existence of rhythm in words, if you are a good songwriter, you will match or complement the lyrical rhythm to the musical rhythm. You have no basis for critique in this regard if you haven't heard the music. Of course you can critique just lyrics, but like I said, I don't see the difference between a critique of poetry and a critique of "lyrics" in that case. The problem I have is that you could have really good lyrics but still have a really bad song.

 

I don't think I misinterpreted "reading lyrics on here is pointless unless they can stand as poetry by themselves" Which is what I disagree with 100%. You have expanded your explination and I see your point, but once again you are not talking about song structure and that is what I keep referring to.

I agree that y"ou can have really good lyrics and still have a bad song" to a degree, and I think I allow for the fact that lyrics are not inteded to exist solely on the page, but as a part of something else. That is the difference between lyrics and poetry really, poetry is a form which exists on the page alone, lyrics are part of a song which has a musical component.

 

What I refer to is structure, I cannot say that enough. Structure and language- words have varying shades of meaning and sometimes what someone means is lost because they choose a word of a different shade, sometimes meaning is lost because people shift perspectives in the middle of a song, sometimes meaning is lost because nothing in the song re-enforces anything else, sometimes things are stated backwards or rhymes seem forced because people don't know of ways to find other rhymes, near rhymes, or other words which can convey the same meaning- those are what I refer to as structural and language issues and they can be dealt with to a very large extent without the music.

 

B

[Aaron Cheney]

 

Originally posted by BryanMichael ...sometimes meaning is lost because people shift perspectives in the middle of a song, sometimes meaning is lost because nothing in the song re-enforces anything else, sometimes things are stated backwards or rhymes seem forced because people don't know of ways to find other rhymes, near rhymes, or other words which can convey the same meaning... B

 

 

 

Yep.

 

Well put.

 

I call it the "Yoda" syndrome. People get so caught up in wrestling with their words to make them rhyme that they end up with sentences like:

 

"She was ready, he was sure

Head over heels in love they were."

 

I don't need to hear the music to know that that line is a dud.

 

A

[baseballdadx]

hey, hey, hey---

 

let's remember, this is a songwriting forum... not pop-writing forum.... so,

 

1) Instrumental songs are still songs, even if you don't like the genre.

 

2) Just because you've perfected your songwriting formula doesn't make you a great songwriter. It makes you Nickelback (And they get paid to write songs, too!). There aren't any rules when writing a song, just different preferences of what a person enjoys.

 

3) People post songs to hear other people say, "I love it!" -- they don't want criticism. So don't get upset when people shrug off your opinions.

[BryanMichael]

 

Originally posted by baseballdadx hey, hey, hey--- let's remember, this is a songwriting forum... not pop-writing forum.... so, 1) Instrumental songs are still songs, even if you don't like the genre. 2) Just because you've perfected your songwriting formula doesn't make you a great songwriter. It makes you Nickelback (And they get paid to write songs, too!). There aren't any rules when writing a song, just different preferences of what a person enjoys. 3) People post songs to hear other people say, "I love it!" -- they don't want criticism. So don't get upset when people shrug off your opinions.

 

 

Well this takes us back to square one. Everything is valid, there are no rules, no stuctures, no nothing.

So why post? It's pointless to get a bunch of kids opinoins. I can {censored} in a jar and call it art if I want to.

"Instrumental songs" are NOT "songs" they are compositions and I have no problem with them, but songwriting is a very specific thing- the marriage of a musical idea with a set of lyrics.I understand that people post their instrumentals here because there really isn't another place for them at HC.

 

2. I agree- that was a good example of perfect formula songwriting that just leaves me cold too.

 

3. I also agree- this board should be called the "please validate me!" board. But people ASK for critiques and then defend every word etc.. why bother to ask? I don;t care if someone is going to "shrug off my opinion" but I'm not going to spend any time actually pointing out things that are even glaringly bad (like the lines mentioned by Aaron Cheney) if the result is going to be 'There are no rules, my song is great! My girldfriend likes it! Who the hell do you think you are?" when I point it out.

 

Again though you wrote "pop-writing" as if these structural elements are not present in every type of song from Metal to couontry to jazz to whatever. They are.

[ToxicBass]

This is exactly what should be happening on this board; communication. The sharing of information, opinions, disagreements, point-of-views... Unfortunately, this thread will eventually end and the songwriting forum will again become a ghost town.

[baseballdadx]

not to open up this thread to pointless discussion again... but i will.

 

instrumental songs are still songs. would you say a jazz trio or kenny g or a big band song isn't a song? just because there's no singer? it's then a "composition?" cmon now, it's a song.

 

instrumental songs don't have to be random--- and songs with lyrics can be random without structure.

 

broaden your music library before making blanket statements. check out www.allmusic.com for some ideas

[el_duderino676]

The reason that I don't post much in this forum is that I only post what I deem as post worthy in that it isn't just total crap that is beyond all repair. The songs I post are IMO workable, which is why I post them so that I can get some advice from people on how to improve the flow of the lyrics.

 

Sure, the lyrics are only one piece of the puzzle of a great song, but I believe that the lyrics are just as important if not more important than what you are playing. I think that a song needs to be tailored to the lyrics, not the other way around.

[B. Adams]

Hmm, I guess the reason I don't post here is because say I posted a song. A couple people might respond to it, tell me what they like and don't like about it, and I would either agree or disagree but still probably not change anything. It's just not a productive use of my time. And the other side of it is that I don't really care what anybody thinks of my songs, especially people that will probably never see me play them.

 

It would be about the same if I posted about somebody else's song. They'd probably just ignore what I disliked about their song, saying I don't know what I'm talking about or whatever. And maybe their right, I don't know. And the other half of that is that I spend enough time writing my own songs, I don't really feel like helping somebody else write.

 

I could just post a few of my songs that I know people will like, just to make myself feel better or something, but what's the point of that?

 

In the end, I just don't know what I could possibly offer this forum. Songwriting is a very personal thing for me, and there are very few people I will share an incomplete song with, and none of them post here. There are times I'd be willing to critique songs, but quite a few of the songs I see here would be too time consuming to pick through. Maybe that's just me though.

 

I do know what you're saying though, nothing happens on this board. Maybe everyone else is as apathetic as I am. But personally, I don't really want any help with my songwriting, I prefer to do it on my own. I like feedback on them, but I can get that here, without having to make a recording. Eh, maybe I'm just too lazy for this.

[LDF]

I'd just like to make a quick post about what a "song" is.

First off, I don't think anyone really cares that much if you call an instrumental a song. Big deal.

 

However just so you all know, the word "song" is derived from the word "sing" which implies that words are involved. If it's strictly an instrumental then there is no singing and therefore it really isn't a song. But who really cares, right?